Accuracy Consensus of an AK (7.62x39)

[MountainRaven]

And none of that had anything to do with reverse engineered StG-44s captured on the Eastern front.

Well, the 7.62x39mm cartridge probably came from the 7.92x33mm Kürz, which the Soviets captured in some quantity along with MkB42s from the Battle of Stalingrad.

But the AK is more of an upside-down M1 Garand with the safety from a Remington model 8. It resembles the StG-44 for the same reasons it resembles the FN FAL or the M16: Convergent evolution. Hell, from what I can tell, Eugene Stoner took more directly from the StG-44 for the AR-10 than the Mikhail Timofeyovich did for his Avtomat.

[SteyrAUG]

Well, the 7.62x39mm cartridge probably came from the 7.92x33mm Kürz, which the Soviets captured in some quantity along with MkB42s from the Battle of Stalingrad.

But the AK is more of an upside-down M1 Garand with the safety from a Remington model 8. It resembles the StG-44 for the same reasons it resembles the FN FAL or the M16: Convergent evolution. Hell, from what I can tell, Eugene Stoner took more directly from the StG-44 for the AR-10 than the Mikhail Timofeyovich did for his Avtomat.

I don't think we should overlook the contributions of Hugo Schmeisser to the AK-47.

By August 1945, the Red Army had created 50 StG 44s from existing assembly parts, and had begun inspecting their design. 10,785 sheets of technical designs were confiscated by the Soviets as part of their research. In October 1945, Schmeisser was forced to work for the Red Army and instructed to continue development of new weapons including the AK-47.

Schmeisser was one of 16 Germans for which a special department (no. 58) was created at factory number 74, later known as Izmash. Schmeisser was appointed as one of the five designers of the group, together with Kurt Horn and Werner Gruner (both from Grossfuss) and Oscar Schink (from Gustloff), under the formal leadership of Karl Barnitske (also from Gustloff). There is some evidence that Schmeisser was uncooperative with the Soviets because he received the most negative review by his Soviet handlers in this group of five German designers. In these Soviet reviews, Schmeisser was described as a "practical man", whose lack of formal training showed whenever he was presented with any design problems.

Schmeisser worked in Izhevsk until 1952 when he and other German specialists returned home to Germany. With short notice, his stay in the Soviet Union was extended beyond that of the other weapon specialists by a half year. He finally returned home on 9 June 1952. Schmeisser died on 12 September 1953, and was buried in Suhl. The 50th anniversary of his death was honored by a ceremony held in Suhl, as he is recognized as one of the most important technical designers of infantry weapons of the 20th century.

[Titan74]

AK's are fine accuracy wise from the better manufacturers; Saiga, Izhvesk, Arsenal etc.

This. And even these can be improved, as usually the accuracy is limited by badly finished crowns and loose muzzle devices.

The most accurate out of the box AK is a Sako or a Valmet with Lapua ammo: 2 MOA is normal, and many rifles shoot better than that.

[Moose-Knuckle]

I don't think we should overlook the contributions of Hugo Schmeisser to the AK-47.

By August 1945, the Red Army had created 50 StG 44s from existing assembly parts, and had begun inspecting their design. 10,785 sheets of technical designs were confiscated by the Soviets as part of their research. In October 1945, Schmeisser was forced to work for the Red Army and instructed to continue development of new weapons including the AK-47.

Schmeisser was one of 16 Germans for which a special department (no. 58) was created at factory number 74, later known as Izmash. Schmeisser was appointed as one of the five designers of the group, together with Kurt Horn and Werner Gruner (both from Grossfuss) and Oscar Schink (from Gustloff), under the formal leadership of Karl Barnitske (also from Gustloff). There is some evidence that Schmeisser was uncooperative with the Soviets because he received the most negative review by his Soviet handlers in this group of five German designers. In these Soviet reviews, Schmeisser was described as a "practical man", whose lack of formal training showed whenever he was presented with any design problems.

Schmeisser worked in Izhevsk until 1952 when he and other German specialists returned home to Germany. With short notice, his stay in the Soviet Union was extended beyond that of the other weapon specialists by a half year. He finally returned home on 9 June 1952. Schmeisser died on 12 September 1953, and was buried in Suhl. The 50th anniversary of his death was honored by a ceremony held in Suhl, as he is recognized as one of the most important technical designers of infantry weapons of the 20th century.

The thing that Schmeisser did for the Russkies was give them perfected mass produced sheet metal stamping. He invented it for the Germans and without it the AKM and subsequent arms would have never been.

Templar had a thread on a book entitled The Gun by C.J. Chivers that IIRC delved into conspiracy that the Russians fabricated the invention of the AK by Kalashnikov. The Russians were all about propaganda and the people needed a hero giving them the weapon to defend the glorious motherland with.

Would have been hard blow to their perfect utopia if they had to admit to the masses that the Red Armies new whiz bang rifle was a product of Teutonic genius.

[SteyrAUG]

The thing that Schmeisser did for the Russkies was give them perfected mass produced sheet metal stamping. He invented it for the Germans and without it the AKM and subsequent arms would have never been.

Templar had a thread on a book entitled The Gun by C.J. Chivers that IIRC delved into conspiracy that the Russians fabricated the invention of the AK by Kalashnikov. The Russians were all about propaganda and the people needed a hero giving them the weapon to defend the glorious motherland with.

Would have been hard blow to their perfect utopia if they had to admit to the masses that the Red Armies new whiz bang rifle was a product of Teutonic genius.

My post was with that book in mind. However we should remember that the first 47s Type 1-3 were milled so no sure that was Schmeissers contribution. IIRC the first prototypes were stamped but they had flaws so the first production rifles were milled until they got the AKM online in 1959 but Hugo died in 1953.

[MountainRaven]

The thing that Schmeisser did for the Russkies was give them perfected mass produced sheet metal stamping. He invented it for the Germans and without it the AKM and subsequent arms would have never been.

Templar had a thread on a book entitled The Gun by C.J. Chivers that IIRC delved into conspiracy that the Russians fabricated the invention of the AK by Kalashnikov. The Russians were all about propaganda and the people needed a hero giving them the weapon to defend the glorious motherland with.

Would have been hard blow to their perfect utopia if they had to admit to the masses that the Red Armies new whiz bang rifle was a product of Teutonic genius.

I seem to recall that Chivers never claimed any connection between Schmeisser and Kalashnikov. That while it's almost a certainty that Kalashnikov simply got his name slapped on a rifle chiefly produced by the minds of other Soviet arms engineers, Schmeisser probably played little or no role in the rifle's development.

In any event, I think the Kalashnikov is too derivative to be one of Schmeisser's designs. Maybe Schmeisser helped design the magazine or something. But I don't think he was involved in any meaningful way with the development of Mikhail Timofeyovich's Avtomat.

[SteyrAUG]

I seem to recall that Chivers never claimed any connection between Schmeisser and Kalashnikov. That while it's almost a certainty that Kalashnikov simply got his name slapped on a rifle chiefly produced by the minds of other Soviet arms engineers, Schmeisser probably played little or no role in the rifle's development.

In any event, I think the Kalashnikov is too derivative to be one of Schmeisser's designs. Maybe Schmeisser helped design the magazine or something. But I don't think he was involved in any meaningful way with the development of Mikhail Timofeyovich's Avtomat.

Pages 152, 207-208. Also you do understand it was Schmeisser who designed the Stg44/45 right? To suggest that all of the Russians work wasn't based almost exclusively on that idea is a major reach, especially when they occupied the area where it was produced and had the designer himself (along with 18 other guys named Hans and Franz) on the design team.

[Moose-Knuckle]

That was my point, that the Russians based the massed production of stamped sheet metal AKs on Schmeisser's contributions to the process of stamping not that Schmeisser himself actually designed the AK. Until he came along the Russians could not perfect stamping.

[SteyrAUG]

That was my point, that the Russians based the massed production of stamped sheet metal AKs on Schmeisser's contributions to the process of stamping not that Schmeisser himself actually designed the AK. Until he came along the Russians could not perfect stamping.

But they also couldn't do it while he was on the team or even alive. The first stamped prototype was a failure so the first production guns were milled until well after his death. So I'm not sure if that was his primary contribution.

[MountainRaven]

Pages 152, 207-208. Also you do understand it was Schmeisser who designed the Stg44/45 right? To suggest that all of the Russians work wasn't based almost exclusively on that idea is a major reach, especially when they occupied the area where it was produced and had the designer himself (along with 18 other guys named Hans and Franz) on the design team.

The assault rifle wasn't Schmeisser's concept: The concept dates to 1918 in the German military and it was the Waffenamt that propsed the original concept that became the MKb42(W) (which Schmeisser did not devise) and the MKb42(H) (which he did help develop).

The cartridge wasn't his, having been previously developed in 1940/41 for the MKb concept.

Even the StG-44/45 wasn't entirely his: The Waffenamt required the MP43 incorporate features of the MKb42(W), like the fire control group and firing from a closed bolt.

The only part of the concept that was wholly Schmeisser's was the stamped steel construction.

So, yeah, beyond the presence of a stamped steel receiver, I'd say Schmeisser's influence was probably pretty minimal.