Respectfully, I decline to make your cake

[SteyrAUG]

I don't believe that a majority of the worlds population gives much of a rats ass about freedom. Freedom is a first world concern, at best. The fact that the citizens of the United States are concerned about freedom, unlike most other people in other places, is what makes this country special. Maslow wrote about the hierarchy of needs, and most of the world never gets past the basics. If our foreign policy was oriented with this idea, we'd be far better off.

I thought we were speaking specifically of this country.

[26 Inf]

Putting aside for a moment the concept of free-will for the sake of this discussion (I don't think the concept of free-will is even remotely biblical). And also putting aside the stunning revelation that you attend an Anabaptist (Mennonite) church which from my up close and personal dealings with is "non-violent" to the point that the Mennonites I knew would never think of using any violence to defend their lives. So, I find it fascinating, that you are a member of a forum that promotes firearms, self defense and justified violence. I would love to hear how you work all this out.

I'll savor the rest of what you wrote later. Simplest answer, I'm a weed in their wheat patch.

It is actually worse than what you wrote considering my .mil and LE background.

I approach the whole 'peace church' concept through the litmus of my interpretation of 'turn the other cheek' and 'two swords are enough' - don't go looking for trouble, brush off slights, but it is okay to defend yourself or others from violence. This is not pacificism, rather peacekeeping in my mind.

I began attending a small evangelical church that was a member of an off-shot Mennonite Conference after my wife and I left the Methodist Church we were attending. The problem that I quickly saw with my new small church were that the numbers jumped up and down - there were about 100 bodies when we began attending, less than 35 when we left. We left simply because I wanted my tithe to go for more than keeping the doors open. Although the church had Mennonite in it's name and conference membership, that is about as far as it went. So we went in search of a larger church.

It just so happened that a co-worker, who I had invited to our church when he began work with us, was attending the church that I currently attend, and returned the favor by inviting us to his church. Instant fit.

I think it is important that your church helps you put your faith to work, and for the first several years we attended the Church as a whole was focused on hands on work. Then one year our focus shifted to funding projects such as loans to Afghan women to start cottage businesses and building water wells for villages at 15,000 a whack. I was happy to contribute money, but I also liked the 'show your faith through your works' aspect of helping folks build stuff, or filling physical needs. I learned to hang and tape drywall like a pro while helping build a teacher's duplex on the Hopi Indian Reservation located in Arizona, I've done fencing work after wildfires fires with Mennonite Disaster Services, housing refurbishment with Interfaith Housing, and yearly help several other guys from my Sunday school class can about 4,000 pounds of the semi-load of canned meat our area makes each year for the Mennonite Central committee.

It may seem as if I'm patting myself on the back, and that is not it at all. I am talking about how the Mennonite Church inspires folks to 'preach the Gospel, use words if needed.' I'm pretty sure at the end of my days, as I look back, one of the best days of my life is going to be when we walked through the door of that Mennonite Church.

I fall down every day, but I get back up. My Church Family knows I'm not a perfect fit, but they forgive me my foibles.

[TomMcC]

I'll savor the rest of what you wrote later. Simplest answer, I'm a weed in their wheat patch.

It is actually worse than what you wrote considering my .mil and LE background.

I approach the whole 'peace church' concept through the litmus of my interpretation of 'turn the other cheek' and 'two swords are enough' - don't go looking for trouble, brush off slights, but it is okay to defend yourself or others from violence. This is not pacificism, rather peacekeeping in my mind.

I began attending a small evangelical church that was a member of an off-shot Mennonite Conference after my wife and I left the Methodist Church we were attending. The problem that I quickly saw with my new small church were that the numbers jumped up and down - there were about 100 bodies when we began attending, less than 35 when we left. We left simply because I wanted my tithe to go for more than keeping the doors open. Although the church had Mennonite in it's name and conference membership, that is about as far as it went. So we went in search of a larger church.

It just so happened that a co-worker, who I had invited to our church when he began work with us, was attending the church that I currently attend, and returned the favor by inviting us to his church. Instant fit.

I think it is important that your church helps you put your faith to work, and for the first several years we attended the Church as a whole was focused on hands on work. Then one year our focus shifted to funding projects such as loans to Afghan women to start cottage businesses and building water wells for villages at 15,000 a whack. I was happy to contribute money, but I also liked the 'show your faith through your works' aspect of helping folks build stuff, or filling physical needs. I learned to hang and tape drywall like a pro while helping build a teacher's duplex on the Hopi Indian Reservation located in Arizona, I've done fencing work after wildfires fires with Mennonite Disaster Services, housing refurbishment with Interfaith Housing, and yearly help several other guys from my Sunday school class can about 4,000 pounds of the semi-load of canned meat our area makes each year for the Mennonite Central committee.

It may seem as if I'm patting myself on the back, and that is not it at all. I am talking about how the Mennonite Church inspires folks to 'preach the Gospel, use words if needed.' I'm pretty sure at the end of my days, as I look back, one of the best days of my life is going to be when we walked through the door of that Mennonite Church.

I fall down every day, but I get back up. My Church Family knows I'm not a perfect fit, but they forgive me my foibles.

Interesting. I agree with you on the peacekeeping view of turn the other cheek. It had slipped my mine you were a LEO.

Concerning your church, are they sorta kinda OK with idea of self defense? Do they hold to a strict Mennonite view or do they cut you slack on that one. The one's I knew for awhile were quite strict on that doctrine.

[26 Inf]

Interesting. I agree with you on the peacekeeping view of turn the other cheek. It had slipped my mine you were a LEO.

Concerning your church, are they sorta kinda OK with idea of self defense? Do they hold to a strict Mennonite view or do they cut you slack on that one. The one's I knew for awhile were quite strict on that doctrine.

I really don't know, to tell you the truth.

I do know that I've been asked by several members (older and younger) if I carry at church - this was shortly after the Sutherland Springs Church Shooting, I didn't feel that they were asking to admonish me not to.

I hope I don't ever have to find out for sure.

[LMT Shooter]

I thought we were speaking specifically of this country.

I kinda strayed into a wider scope than that, sorry.

If I had to venture a guess, I'd go with nearly 100% of the American colonists in the late 1700's professing a belief in God & practicing Judeo-Christian beliefs. A desire to break free of British rule for more freedom, not nearly as high among the general population of colonists. I'd say religion > freedom to most of the colonists. Our Founding Fathers obviously were 100% believers in freedom, but I'm not aware of any reliable source that says there was one (or more) atheist, or even non-Christian, among them.

[SteyrAUG]

I kinda strayed into a wider scope than that, sorry.

If I had to venture a guess, I'd go with nearly 100% of the American colonists in the late 1700's professing a belief in God & practicing Judeo-Christian beliefs. A desire to break free of British rule for more freedom, not nearly as high among the general population of colonists. I'd say religion > freedom to most of the colonists. Our Founding Fathers obviously were 100% believers in freedom, but I'm not aware of any reliable source that says there was one (or more) atheist, or even non-Christian, among them.

200 years ago we believed many things. I thought we were speaking about now. Hell less than 100 years ago most people were convinced there were advanced civilizations on Mars. Atheism and agnosticism have existed before anyone heard of christianity. There are belief systems and there are those who view them with skepticism.

[Moose-Knuckle]

Since we've strayed away from Christian bakers and gay wedding cakes....

Several people mentioned the second successful English colony in the New World.

The Mayflower was under the control of the Virginia Company, think East India Company light the 17th century's version of the Military Industrial Complex. The ships inhabitants were comprised of Brownist separatist Puritans (aka Pilgrims) from Holland fleeing religious persecution in the Old World. They didn't want to loose their English culture so they contracted with the Virginia company of London to establish a new English colony in the New World.

I forget the exact numbers but it was something like half and half, half of the voyagers on the Mayflower were Pilgrims while the other half were White slaves, British mercenaries (and their families), and the ship's crew, i.e. Saints and Strangers.

[26 Inf]

Since we've strayed away from Christian bakers and gay wedding cakes....

Several people mentioned the second successful English colony in the New World.

The Mayflower was under the control of the Virginia Company, think East India Company light the 17th century's version of the Military Industrial Complex. The ships inhabitants were comprised of Brownist separatist Puritans (aka Pilgrims) from Holland fleeing religious persecution in the Old World. They didn't want to loose their English culture so they contracted with the Virginia company of London to establish a new English colony in the New World.

I forget the exact numbers but it was something like half and half, half of the voyagers on the Mayflower were Pilgrims while the other half were White slaves, British mercenaries (and their families), and the ship's crew, i.e. Saints and Strangers.

National Geographic had an interesting article on the Roanoke colonies disappearance in the June issue.

It is online here: https://www.nationalgeographic.com/m...ries-croatoan/

When I read the article I was surprised to learn that... Throughout colonial North America, most of the English captured by Indians or who deserted refused to return, even if given the chance. Unlike Europeans, Native Americans in the colonial era typically welcomed men, women, and children of any origin into their ranks. Though some warrior-age men were killed and others enslaved, the vast majority were accepted as full members of the tribe.

Anyway, I thought it was an interesting article.

[Adrenaline_6]

Since we've strayed away from Christian bakers and gay wedding cakes....

Several people mentioned the second successful English colony in the New World.

The Mayflower was under the control of the Virginia Company, think East India Company light the 17th century's version of the Military Industrial Complex. The ships inhabitants were comprised of Brownist separatist Puritans (aka Pilgrims) from Holland fleeing religious persecution in the Old World. They didn't want to loose their English culture so they contracted with the Virginia company of London to establish a new English colony in the New World.

I forget the exact numbers but it was something like half and half, half of the voyagers on the Mayflower were Pilgrims while the other half were White slaves, British mercenaries (and their families), and the ship's crew, i.e. Saints and Strangers.

They were originally from Britain, pooled their money together to flee on a merchant ship, got double crossed by the merchant ship captain then promptly arrested.

Fled again to The Netherlands this time, was not very successful there, returned to Britain. Pooled their money again to flee. The Mayflower was not an ideal ship for the voyage, her design was not made for the type of voyage they were going to make at the time they were sailing. (Bad at headwinds). It even broke her main support which was fixed by a jack screw that the Pilgrims brought along by "chance" to help with home construction.

They also hired the Speedwell which was supposed to bring the rest who were still in the Netherlands and meet up with the Mayflower. The Speedwell sprung leaks a few times and they abandoned using the Speedwell and either aborted the trip and went back to the Netherlands or crammed in the Mayflower.

They were supposed to go to Virginia but storms blew them off course and they ended up in Cape Cod. Many died that first year. They took a whole bunch of suck.

[TexHill]

God's Standard for Sexuality: