So we need to have personally been affected by a policy to hold an opinion on it ?Originally Posted by Sensei
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Senior Member
So we need to have personally been affected by a policy to hold an opinion on it ?
"I pity thou, fools who dost not choose BCM" - King Arthur 517 A.D.
.OlllllllO.
Senior Member
Respectfully, I'm looking for LEOs who know of agencies that currently allow NKWs for simple drug busts without concern for weapons or officer safety. I'm not looking for what happened in the past, examples of officers violating their department policy, or officers misrepresenting information on warrants. A simple listing of the agencies is sufficient.
I'm also interested in hearing from forum members who have personal experience with this issue.
I'm asking this because I'm not aware of any LE organization that currently allows NKW for simple drug busts, and I have no family members, friends, or close associates who have been touched by this problem. However, I want to keep an open mind.
Last edited by Sensei; 03-20-17 at 09:36.
I like my rifles like my women - short, light, fast, brown, and suppressed.
Senior Member
Law enforcement agencies are not likely to post their no knock policies. You must remember that under our system, within each county of every state the law enforcement fabric is made up of a mixed collection separate agencies who in many cases don't get along with each other. If no knock warrants are decreasing in frequency, it's because of liability concerns and outcry against mistakes with tragic consequences. I do agree that since they represent a minute number of law enforcement activities, no valid generalizations can be made about law enforcement in general. Trends including strategy and tactics come and go and change as they are evaluated. Another point is that communities vary widely. What police must do in St Louis might never be done in others. I don't bash cops. When I travel from Central Texas to Southwest Mississippi(my home), I pass through a large number of police jurisdictions. I drive like an old school teacher and never speed. Yet, I always use a radar detector so I can slow down from legal to 5 mph below. I'm attempting to avoid being pulled over. Why? Because I know what can happen or might happen during traffic stops. I know what has happened. I'm just careful.
Last edited by williejc; 03-20-17 at 09:39.
Senior Member
Did some digging. It was not an assistant clerk magistrate for the Cornelia case, that was another problem case in Massachusetts.
It was the County Magistrate who approved the no-knock warrant. So let's talk about requirements to be a County magistrate in Georgia:
-Age 25 years old or older and
- have a high school diploma.
That's it. You don't have to be an attorney, or have any other court experience. Some are elected, some are appointed.
Here's the biography of the current Habersham County magistrate:
Biography
Prior to his appointment to the court, Johnson served as captain and chief investigator for the Rabun County Sheriff's Office. He has also previously served as the assistant chief of the Clarkesville Police Department and as a deputy magistrate judge for*White County*from 2001 to 2003
If you are familiar with Georgia you will recognize these County names. And remember some other problematic issues with many of the agencies and their policies. They are also major meth zones.
His predecessor at least was a real judge with a JD. (Juris Doctor)
Duties of a GA Magistrate Court:
Small claims ($0-$5,000) cases.
Mental Health cases.
Emergency civil protection/ restraining orders.
Misdemeanor preliminary hearings.
Juvenile cases.
Traffic infractions
Point being: if you are expecting serious jurisprudence and careful consideration of all the facts before no knocks are approved, that's not the case in many parts of the country.
And GA is not alone, there are other states seeing increasing problems.
Maybe some states have it figured out.
And maybe the majority of noknock warrants are okay.
But when they go bad, and they do, they go really bad.
So does it really make sense to have a guy with a high school degree at least 25 years of age and no other requirements approving noknock warrants with minimal review? Is that what we're defending?
Senior Member
Recovery of a kidnap victim. Rescue of a hostage. Capture of a known violent suspect (aka he just robbed a bank and shot up the place and he is hiding in there. Kind of like Dorner). Rescue/release of human trafficking victims. Capture of a potential terrorist.
There is a laundry list of items that require more aggressive tactics than knock and announce. Some maybe dynamic enough that a warrant may not be needed. Others may be raids as a result of long term investigation.
Do you want to be the guy to go knock on terror cells door asking nicely to please don't blow yourself up and come with us? I know I don't.
Agree 100% from a legal/Constitutional POV. From a philosophical POV banning tool A due to abuse by some is the same as banning tool B due to abuse by some.
I am not suggesting that we give LEO a pass on the whole No-Knock thing, but rather that we step away from the bath water and think logically instead of emotionally. As the Vox article states there were over 20k no knocks executed and we've come up with a dozen or so bad cases. So is someone stirring the pot or is this really a case of rampant Leo abuse of power? Again we need to do our best to minimize the bad without hampering the ability to do good. It's not rocket surgery.
There are cases where dynamic entry is the best possible choice. Procedures AND laws should filter the application into those categories.
Maybe a way to naturally limit the use is to strip away immunity when organizations and judges operate outside of those few critical cases.
Senior Member
When you can be "swatted" with as little as a a phone call when streaming on the youtubes, twitch, whatever, we have a real problem.
Just saying.
We have people trolling people with over active SWAT teams, and little to no real knowledge of a threat or true incident.
Just my two cents.
ETA: Crap... Now I will be watching out front all day. Be niiice guuyz.
Last edited by HeruMew; 03-20-17 at 10:01.
Senior Member
Of course it doesn't make sense and nobody is suggesting that NKW be approached in such a manner. I do think there is a middle ground to NKW between never and Barney Fife signing the warrant. I also would like more data on the scope of the issue outside of case reports.
I like my rifles like my women - short, light, fast, brown, and suppressed.
Senior Member
Ya this will get locked up soon...
So before that happens I want to get my experience into the mix.
I was on the receiving end of a no-knock...
They got the wrong house tried to trump up charges, and even tried to do some "this looks like drugs" stuff. I was held at gun point, thrown to the ground etc...
My home at the time was totally wired with hidden cameras and Battery backup at the time. I also do an annual lifestyle poly...
The DA found out about my background knew they did not have a case and tried to force me to sign a plea to drop charges that would also state nothing was their fault.
I rejected it, went to court go the case thrown. Then sued, and got a nice settlement.
No Knocks have NO place with local law enforcement, I can see federal needing it. But locals using it is ****ing stupid.
Member
I can't speak for the rest of the country but I can speak about my county(over a million residents). Getting a search warrant is very difficult and getting a provision such as a no knock provision is even more difficult. We rarely do no knocks and when we do its for good reason. Go to http://ypdcrime.com/cpl/article690.htm#c690.30 this is the section of the New York State Criminal Procedure Law that covers search warrants.
no knock provision- (b) A request that the search warrant authorize the executing police
officer to enter premises to be searched without giving notice of his
authority and purpose, upon the ground that there is reasonable cause to
believe that (i) the property sought may be easily and quickly destroyed
or disposed of, or (ii) the giving of such notice may endanger the life
or safety of the executing officer or another person, or (iii) in the
case of an application for a search warrant as defined in paragraph (b)
of subdivision two of section 690.05 for the purpose of searching for
and arresting a person who is the subject of a warrant for a felony, the
person sought is likely to commit another felony, or may endanger the
life or safety of the executing officer or another person.
Any request made pursuant to this subdivision must be accompanied and
supported by allegations of fact of a kind prescribed in paragraph (c)
of subdivision two.
No one here gets off on kicking someone's door in, when we do its with GOOD reason.. I have never seen a no knock executed for the reason; drugs/marijuana being destroyed or disposed of(section i). I know some of you find it hard to believe that we are here to protect and serve, half of us in my Dept. have military backgrounds and some are still active.
Senior Member
Thank you for posting your experience.
I like my rifles like my women - short, light, fast, brown, and suppressed.
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