Reasonable Gun Control Laws

[Irish]

Originally Posted by TehLlama

NFA items such as MGs and DD/AOW stuff I can absolutely see a need for - and I'm even for an equivalent background check for suppressors...

Outside of the probition era I can't think of any time where legally owned fully automatic guns were much of an issue and I think the whole thing is blown out of proportion and sensationalized by movies and TV. Apparently people in Ohio haven't realized that. I haven't seen any more recent data than this. Link to quote.

In 1995 there were over 240,000 machine guns registered with the ATF. (Zawitz, Marianne,Bureau of Justice Statistics, Guns Used in Crime [PDF].) About half are owned by civilians and the other half by police departments and other governmental agencies (Gary Kleck, Targeting Guns: Firearms and Their Control, Walter de Gruyter, Inc., New York, 1997.)

Since 1934, there appear to have been at least two homicides committed with legally owned automatic weapons. One was a murder committed by a law enforcement officer (as opposed to a civilian). On September 15th, 1988, a 13-year veteran of the Dayton, Ohio police department, Patrolman Roger Waller, then 32, used his fully automatic MAC-11 .380 caliber submachine gun to kill a police informant, 52-year-old Lawrence Hileman. Patrolman Waller pleaded guilty in 1990, and he and an accomplice were sentenced to 18 years in prison. The 1986 'ban' on sales of new machine guns does not apply to purchases by law enforcement or government agencies.

The other homicide, possibly involving a legally owned machine gun, occurred on September 14, 1992, also in Ohio.

In Targeting Guns, Kleck cites the director of ATF testifying before Congress that he knew of less than ten crimes that were committed with legally owned machine guns (no time period was specified). Kleck says these crimes could have been nothing more than violations of gun regulations such as failure to notify ATF after moving a registered gun between states.

Again in Targeting Guns, Kleck writes, four police officers were killed in the line of duty by machine guns from 1983 to 1992. (713 law enforcement officers were killed during that period, 651 with guns.)

In 1980, when Miami's homicide rate was at an all-time high, less than 1% of all homicides involved machine guns. (Miami was supposedly a "machine gun Mecca" and drug trafficking capital of the U.S.) Although there are no national figures to compare to, machine gun deaths were probably lower elsewhere. Kleck cites several examples:

Of 2,200 guns recovered by Minneapolis police (1987-1989), not one was fully automatic.

A total of 420 weapons, including 375 guns, were seized during drug warrant executions and arrests by the Metropolitan Area Narcotics Squad (Will and Grundie counties in the Chicago metropolitan area, 1980-1989). None of the guns was a machine gun.

16 of 2,359 (0.7%) of the guns seized in the Detroit area (1991-1992) in connection with "the investigation of narcotics trafficking operations" were machine guns.

I read about Goldilock's gun restrictions and it went something like this... Some guns are too big for you civilians because they can defeat bullet proof vests. Some guns are too small for civilians to own and can be hidden in a pocket. Some guns don't have a "sporting purpose" for civilians and are considered "assault weapons" so you have no legitimate reason to own them. Some guns are too cheap for civilians, "Saturday Night Specials", meaning anyone can buy one!

[Moose-Knuckle]

Originally Posted by TehLlama

NFA items such as MGs and DD/AOW stuff I can absolutely see a need for - and I'm even for an equivalent background check for suppressors (but a lower cost tax stamp, since it's a hearing preservation issue for many).


As for the rest RR is right the f**k on. Seat belt laws are retarded - but now wearing seat belts is for retards, and parents who do not seat belt in their minor dependents should be regarded as negligent. That's just one self-contained rant from one of the many points brought up, the same minor impingement on liberty is identical in logic to one that means absolute tyranny - the only difference is time and apathy.

Wait a minute, WHAT. . .

You are for government regulation of NFA items but think seat belt laws are "means to absolute tyranny". . .

You do realize that there are nations in socialist Europe that don't regulate machine guns and suppressors right?

[chadbag]

Again, what is wrong with a law like in Vermont, where it is illegal to carry with intent to commit a crime with the firearm?

No block to people who don't commit the crimes but if you do commit a crime with one, yet another book to throw at you.


--

[Abraxas]

Originally Posted by Moose-Knuckle

Wait a minute, WHAT. . .

You are for government regulation of NFA items but think seat belt laws are "means to absolute tyranny". . .

You do realize that there are nations in socialist Europe that don't regulate machine guns and suppressors right?

Irony.

[QuietShootr]

Originally Posted by JBecker 72

Bullshit! Every time someone comes up with one of these stories there is way more shady details involved than a single broken part on a semiautomatic weapon and a single burst of automatic fire.

Post up the case information and prove me wrong and I will gladly apologize, but until then I won't buy into this same old story that gets told on gun forums all the time. It always turns out to be a bullshit tale or some dumbass that got caught with his modified weapon.

What part of 'it's still ongoing' was I not clear about? I am under the instructions of the attorney to NOT post specifics until everything is settled. It is NOT the scenario you posted above, and that's all I'm going to say.

[Clint]

http://guncite.com/swissgun-kopel.html

An interesting article that contrasts Swiss gun laws and culture with ours.

Some of the points seem key in the effort to make it all work.

[JBecker 72]

Originally Posted by QuietShootr

What part of 'it's still ongoing' was I not clear about? I am under the instructions of the attorney to NOT post specifics until everything is settled. It is NOT the scenario you posted above, and that's all I'm going to say.

Oh I'm sorry. I didn't realize you could be found guilty of a felony before being convicted of the crime you were charged with. And if it's not the scenario I posted it to be, quit making it sound like it is in your posts.

[QuietShootr]

Originally Posted by JBecker 72

Oh I'm sorry. I didn't realize you could be found guilty of a felony before being convicted of the crime you were charged with. And if it's not the scenario I posted it to be, quit making it sound like it is in your posts.

Oh, fuck you. The criminal part is over.

[sboza]

Originally Posted by QuietShootr

Oh, fuck you. The criminal part is over.

Damn man, relax. You posted something that you yourself can not substantiate, at least not at this time due to circumstances (if you are to be believed). I don't know what could be so super secret about the case that you can not reveal any information even though, as you put it, the criminal portion is over. But whatever man, it's not worth getting so fired up about. Take a deep breath, grab a cold one, and calm down.

[JBecker 72]

Originally Posted by QuietShootr

Oh, fuck you.

[TAZ]

Aside from the four rules of safety I can't really think that laws regulating the possession, portage or use of firearms is needed. Last time I checked it was against the law to hurt someone or destroy their property, be that with a gun or bat or your limbs. What else is there that needs to be acted upon. Gun control has absolutely little to do with protecting people. It is ONLY about controlling those people who care about or bother obeying the laws. They do absolutely nothing to control the actions of those few among us willing to harm to others.

As far as I'm concerned if you're mentally unfit enough to not be trusted, or are criminally oriented you shouldn't be out and about among people at all. But them I'm often called an intolerant asshole.

[CarlosDJackal]

Originally Posted by GTifosi

No mental incompetents, no aliens, no felons.
Aliens are elidgeable after they pass citizenship test...

So in your short-sighted opinion those of us GREEN CARD HOLDERS should be allowed to put our very lives on the line as Soldiers, Sailors, Airmen, Marines, and Law Enforcement Officers; but should not be allowed to legally own the very tools these professions require AND that we may need to defend our lives and the lives of our loved ones?

Basically you are saying that the US Constitution do not apply to all US Persons just because some of them have just began the road to Citizenship. And this is why some of those born in this country should not be allowed to vote. JM2CW

[Abraxas]

Originally Posted by CarlosDJackal

So in your short-sighted opinion those of us GREEN CARD HOLDERS should be allowed to put our very lives on the line as Soldiers, Sailors, Airmen, Marines, and Law Enforcement Officers; but should not be allowed to legally own the very tools these professions require AND that we may need to defend our lives and the lives of our loved ones?

Basically you are saying that the US Constitution do not apply to all US Persons just because some of them have just began the road to Citizenship. And this is why some of those born in this country should not be allowed to vote. JM2CW

I think voting should be more restricted than guns. The same reasons we all here think it is stupid to pass bills restricting mag capacities or scary looking guns, applies to this discussion.

[MegademiC]

Originally Posted by Abraxas

I think voting should be more restricted than guns. The same reasons we all here think it is stupid to pass bills restricting mag capacities or scary looking guns, applies to this discussion.

we wouldnt need voting restrictions if the government didnt buy votes. Welfare rewards bad descisions and lack of foresight, these same people are voting themselves, and us into a situation of large government making rules about things it was never intended to legislate. The same applies to guns, these same people live in fear of things they know nothing about. Same goes for a lot of things, EPA regulations, nuclear energy, drugs, etc.

Fed govt should regulate trade, interstate commerce, and defese, thats about it. Rest should be up to the states like stated in the constitution.

Originally Posted by Irish

Outside of the probition era I can't think of any time where legally owned fully automatic guns were much of an issue and I think the whole thing is blown out of proportion and sensationalized by movies and TV. Apparently people in Ohio haven't realized that. ..

Hey now, dont lump ALL us Ohioans in the same catagory (though for the most part I do see where your coming from - stupid is fluid here).

[Irish]

Originally Posted by MegademiC

Hey now, dont lump ALL us Ohioans in the same catagory (though for the most part I do see where your coming from - stupid is fluid here).

Really not my intention, they just seem to have a knack for committing crimes with full-auto guns.

[CarlosDJackal]

Originally Posted by sboza

To hell with that, any felon is out in my book. Very, very bad judgement (or multiple bouts of bad judgement) is needed to "earn" yourself a felony. These people do not need to own a gun ever. Don't want your right taken away, don't commit a felony. And some violent misdemeanors should come with gun ownership restrictions (maybe not permanent). I don't want the guy getting into bar fights every week or beating the shit out of his wife owning a gun either. Call me crazy.

I disagree. I know of a felon who is still doing time in Federal Prison for something he did not commit. What was his crime? He was a Gun Dealer whose employee was caught allowing Straw Purchases to occur (two recorded by camera during a BATFE sting). This same employee rolled on his boss to save his own worthless skin. But by all accounts the employee went through the required training but just did not put 2-and-2 together.

The FFL Holder and Class 3 Dealer and was never present on any of the incidents and had no knowledge of the crimes. He was a former Marine who had a regular job but also ran a Gun Shop from his basement to supplement his income. He ended up taking a plea bargain because the ATF wanted to drag his wife (and co-owner of the Gun Shop) into the crime which she also had no knowledge of.

There are a lot of felons who should never be considered felons because their crimes were not only of the non-violent nature; some were outright trivial (IE: bounced a $501.00 check). What can be gained by anyone for taking away the rights of such individuals to defend themselves and their families because of someone else's actions.

IMHO, anyone convicted of ANY violent crime, whether a felony or a misdemeanor should be restricted from ever owning a firearm. This includes Stalkers (which is only a misdemeanor in most jurisdictions).

[CarlosDJackal]

Originally Posted by Abraxas

I think voting should be more restricted than guns. The same reasons we all here think it is stupid to pass bills restricting mag capacities or scary looking guns, applies to this discussion.

I agree. IMHO, anyone who wishes to cast a vote should:

(a) Be required to apply do to on an annual basis and must meet the criteria below.

(b) As part of the application process, be able to answer General questions about our country and Constitution (the same questions Resident Aliens have to answer in order to get Naturalized).

(c) Be able to answer specific questions about the positions that they are voting on.

(d) Be able to provide proof that they have lived in the jurisdiction that the elections are affecting for at least 30-days (same as the requirement to establish Residency).

(e) Be able to produce a government issued picture ID in order to receive a Voter's Registration ID which itself will include at least a picture and possible a fingerprint.

[QuietShootr]

Originally Posted by CarlosDJackal

I disagree. I know of a felon who is still doing time in Federal Prison for something he did not commit. What was his crime? He was a Gun Dealer whose employee was caught allowing Straw Purchases to occur (two recorded by camera during a BATFE sting). This same employee rolled on his boss to save his own worthless skin. But by all accounts the employee went through the required training but just did not put 2-and-2 together.

The FFL Holder and Class 3 Dealer and was never present on any of the incidents and had no knowledge of the crimes. He was a former Marine who had a regular job but also ran a Gun Shop from his basement to supplement his income. He ended up taking a plea bargain because the ATF wanted to drag his wife (and co-owner of the Gun Shop) into the crime which she also had no knowledge of.

Nah, fuck him too. Hope he gets AIDS in prison and dies, like all felons deserve. Right, sboza?

[TehLlama]

Originally Posted by Moose-Knuckle

Wait a minute, WHAT. . .

You are for government regulation of NFA items but think seat belt laws are "means to absolute tyranny". . .

You do realize that there are nations in socialist Europe that don't regulate machine guns and suppressors right?

I'm not saying it should be the NFA process it is now, just the same level of background check currently present, and MG/AOW/DD aren't in as much of a threat of mass confiscation or AWB retardation, and in the grand scheme of erosion of liberty I'd solve the red tape, election buying, and rampant cronyism long before spending huge amounts of political capital on one subset of firearms where overcoming the bias of an ignorant public is required.

Onto the swiss side, registration of arms and ammunition is a lot more plausible as a non-threat with a culture that reinforces the public militia as a bulwark of sovereignty, in the environment and designs of gungrabbing assholes, ammo registration can really only be viewed as a backdoor means of gun grabbing.

[sboza]

Originally Posted by QuietShootr

Nah, fuck him too. Hope he gets AIDS in prison and dies, like all felons deserve. Right, sboza?

My God, why don't you go away until you can back up some of your BS as many forum members here have asked you to.

I don't know why you are such an angry little man. Seriously dude, I think you need to get laid. Nothing else explains this level of sillyness on your part.