Need suggestions on next purchase.

irockstar661 · #1 04-24-12, 17:46

Hey all. I am looking into getting into intermediate long range shooting. Probably going to be a range gun and shtf if needed long range gun. I am looking for accuracy and reliability and price. Here are my options:

1) Brand New Savage 10fp with bipod in .308 for $600

Or

2) 100 round count Howa 1500 with bipod and Nikon 3-9x40 Scope in .308 for $500 (closer drive)

I'd like to hear from people that own or have shot both. Thanks!!

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orkan · #2 04-24-12, 18:33

None of the above.

Remington 700 SPS tactical.

... and you'll need more than a 9x optic.

irockstar661 · #3 04-24-12, 19:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by orkan

None of the above.

Remington 700 SPS tactical.

... and you'll need more than a 9x optic.

That is not in my question. Unfortunately that is out of the above budget.

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jklaughrey · #4 04-24-12, 19:14

Concur with Orkan. It would be best to save up and buy the minimum standard, than attempt to use a sub par weapon for the intended use you have posted. You will be far better served and happier over time to make an investment versus a quick purchase because you chose to act hastily.

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irockstar661 · #5 04-24-12, 19:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by jklaughrey

Concur with Orkan. It would be best to save up and buy the minimum standard, than attempt to use a sub par weapon for the intended use you have posted. You will be far better served and happier over time to make an investment versus a quick purchase because you chose to act hastily.

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Minimum standard??

Savage 10fp is n under rated rifle that is sub moa out of the box that competes with the 700

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jklaughrey · #6 04-24-12, 20:02

That is an opinion rockstar. I am speaking of a known constant. Can you quantify with data that is backed by years of performance from a known quantity.

It would seem based upon your join date and amount of posts, more so mostly in the picture threads you are just trying to justify a purchase of an item that you have little knowledge of. Read more, there is a plethora of knowledge here.

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irockstar661 · #7 04-24-12, 20:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by jklaughrey

That is an opinion rockstar. I am speaking of a known constant. Can you quantify with data that is backed by years of performance from a known quantity.

It would seem based upon your join date and amount of posts, more so mostly in the picture threads you are just trying to justify a purchase of an item that you have little knowledge of. Read more, there is a plethora of knowledge here.

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I appreciate the reply. I will continue to read and educate myself for sure. I just put a call into my LGS to get a price on the Remington 700 Spas tactical. They will call me back.

I for one am nowhere near patient and that is one of my flaws. I tend to purchase or make decisions rather quickly. But from reading online and on other forums it seems the savage is a great shooter. Are the many opinions in regards to this wrong?

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anthony1 · #8 04-25-12, 01:20

Savage is fine for an entry level beginner rifle. A rem7 sps is fine too, should be about the same in price and is good too.

Your gonna need a new stock with either one. Ive had entry level rifles from both savage and Remington, the main difference is the rem7 headsspaces on an indexed shoulder and the savage head spaces on a lug nut. The savage feels sloppy when you work the bolt the rems feel a little more sturdy and smooth. Functionally both are fine. Savage is way easier to work on yourself.

I don't know much about Howas. Might wanna check out Tikka too, they make nice rifles.

orkan · #9 04-25-12, 10:22

Out of your budget? You can get a rem700 SPS tactical for $500 if you do a little looking... $600 all over the place, and like $450 used.

For a guy looking into "long range shooting" your budget sure doesn't fit with reality very well.

Pappabear · #10 04-26-12, 00:10

Rem 700. Parts are available. Many know how to work on them. And from the 4 I have recently seen, all shoot sub-MOA. Known military sniper rife for years.

orkan · #11 04-26-12, 02:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pappabear

Known military sniper rife for years.

Decades.

MOA · #12 04-27-12, 21:58

I owned a savage for years. One of the most accurate hunting rifles I ever had. Was easy sub MOA with good ammo. The savage is gaining a solid following around here in f class and low level benchrest. Barrel swaps are easier, but I'm unsure of blueprinting and the like on difficulty. Ditch the stock and get a manners or mcmillian. Used to be someone who sold solid fiberglass stocks 75% done. All you had to do wad bed, finish and paint but I can't find the name right now.
I would say, out of the box factory stock the savage is most likely as accurate as a Remington. I have trigger tine behind both. It seems that the savages are consistently accurate, while with the remingtons most are accurate, some are .5 moa, and a few need work to break the moa barrier. This is all at 100 yards and a couple years ago.
Just a note, the rifle that won the last f class I shot was a savage and beat several remingtons. That said the guy who did it likely could have done it with a daisy...

orkan · #13 04-28-12, 00:49

Every once in a while someone will tell me about their amazing savage that I "just have to shoot." So I shoot it. When I get up off the rifle, unimpressed, I get quizzed as to why.

Then I let that person shoot a surgeon... and they quickly realize why their savage failed to impress.

As with most things... all the talk is fueled by nothing but inexperience. New shooters have no experience, obviously. So they read forums and narrow their field to savage or remington. Which one they buy really makes no difference. Until they get the round count up into the thousands, they'll never know which is better or why.

Take a savage with 10,000rnds through it, and lay it down next to a rem700 with equal round count. Have 20 shooters cycle through each rifle and give an opinion of which one "feels better."

If you could find any group of 20 shooters in which the majority say the savage feels better, I'll eat crow.

BrigandTwoFour · #14 04-28-12, 12:39

You could argue, though, that by the time someone reaches 10,000 rounds fired they will have decided what they really want in their rifle and begun planning accordingly. It's the same thing we tell all the new guys to the AR platform, start basic and shoot the piss out of it. You'll figure out later what you need/want.

I don't see either a Remington or a Savage remaining stock after a few thousand rounds. Either will see new barrels, new triggers, new stocks, and probably a lot of other work. By that point, they may just decide to sell it and buy start a build with a Surgeon.

IMO, buy the best you can realistically afford and shoot the hell out of it. Remington, Savage, Howa, or Tikka. They'll all probably shoot better than the beginner for quite a while. And all of them have aftermarket parts available (though the Remmy has a lot more choices).

orkan · #15 04-28-12, 13:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by BrigandTwoFour

You could argue, though, that by the time someone reaches 10,000 rounds fired they will have decided what they really want in their rifle and begun planning accordingly.

What have I been saying? With a remington, they'll have options by the end of it. What's the highest round count you ever heard of with a savage?

You can't dispute the facts:
Tons of people "start out" with savage.
Very, very few "end up" with savage.

So if price is near equal, and accuracy is near equal, and the remington has better bolt lift, better ergo's, and lasts longer with a huge aftermarket following... the question remains:

Why the hell would anyone ever buy a savage?

Answer: They are "just starting out" and don't know any better, and they have people on forums everywhere telling them how they shoot savages and they are awesome. Then they buy a savage and because they are invested in it, they want others to invest in it. Then there is one more guy pumping savages to people that ask this question.

Tell me that isn't exactly how it works.

BrigandTwoFour · #16 04-28-12, 13:23

I'm sure that's exactly how it works. I have trouble sorting through all the fanboys telling people to buy whatever rifle they own. Savage owners tell other Savage owners to get one. Howa owners do the same, as to Tikka owners and the Remington owners.

I, frankly, don't have your level of knowledge on the subject. But it just appears to me that, all things being equal, any gun on the list will do fine for a new bolt shooter.

I am curious, though. I've never really been shown stats on what happens to a Remmy/Savage/Tikka/Howa after 10,000 shots fired. What components do you think contribute to the Remington being more desirable at that point? Why do you say people end up with a Remington? Is it solely because of the available aftermarket? Or is there something else?

orkan · #17 04-28-12, 13:33

I didn't say they end up with a remington. I said they don't end up with a savage. It's an important distinction.

I've never shot a savage with 10,000rnds. I've shot many remingtons with that high of a count. Savages are sloppy enough to begin with, so I can't see them getting much better after 10,000rnds.

The one piece bolt and huge supply of available parts makes the remington more desirable. Sure lots of other factors there as well, but I can completely replace every part in the remmy bolt and purchase those parts from nearly anywhere. Any rifle smith in the country can service a remmy, and probably has parts on hand for it.

Sure, at an entry level, it doesn't really matter. The user doesn't know shit, and won't until they get their round count up. Yet why have them start out with something when you know they'll end up wanting/needing something else? I can start them off with a remington 700 and know full well they can turn that rifle into damn near ANYTHING they would ever want.

trigeek37 · #18 04-28-12, 22:54

2 things:

1) http://www.savagearms.com/news/article/?id=2K5nTzegQ
it's just 1 example, and biased, but it exists.

2) Remington is having huge QC issues. I know gun store owners who aren't pushing them because they don't like dealing with angry new gun owners. I've purchased 2 Cerberus (Remington, Marlin, Bushmaster, etc) in the past 2 years. Both have gone back to the factory with significant issues from the start. In both cases I was taken care of, and the rifles shoot great now, but 2-for-2 is pretty bad.

I am not anti-Remington, I am anti Cerberus. Chrysler - fail, GMAC - fail, Madoff connection - fail

taliv · #19 04-29-12, 00:17

i won't get into the QC issues rem is having (though I agree they have some major issues lately) but the basic difference in the savage and rem700 actions are:

*theoretically* the floating bolt head of the savage means that the bolt body can be machined sloppy and it won't prevent the head from being aligned and having even lug contact. in other words, they can spend less money manufacturing it, and still get respectable accuracy.

when you decide to upgrade, the best thing you can do by far is a quality barrel (e.g. bartlein, krieger, brux, etc). With a savage, a gunsmith can ship the barrel to you and you can install it yourself easily. with a rem700, you ship the rifle to the gunsmith and they cut the barrel to length to headspace it, bitch about how your action isn't square, then ship it back to you.

you can buy factory savages in calibers like 260rem, which ironically, isn't available from rem.

if you buy a factory savage fp10 in 308win, you get a 10 twist barrel, 22", threaded muzzle, which means you can install a brake or silencer
if you buy a factory rem700 sps tac in 308win, you get a 12 twist barrel, 20"

savage has a horizontal sliding extractor, while rem700 has a fixed ring that goes inside the bolt head

otherwise, both are push feed, with plunger ejectors, 2 lugs,

some think it's ok, but personally i can't stand the savage accustock or accutrigger. the hogue stock that comes with the rem700 is not much better. a major advantage for the rem700 is trigger availability

orkan · #20 04-29-12, 00:24

So your sample size is 2... and you've formed an opinion. As a consumer, that is your prerogative.

I've put together a couple dozen rem700's in the last couple years. All were sub-moa shooters and had no issues from the start, or now. (that I'm aware of).

All companies can put out bad product. If they take care of it on their dime and make it right, that is widely considered to be acceptable.

I'll go ahead and call you out on the gun store owner thing. What are their names, and how can I get in touch with them? I'd like to call them and hear what they have to say about remington. You can PM it to me if you like. I'd truly like to hear their opinion and why they don't want to sell the most popular bolt action rifle on planet earth. I have an FFL, and converse regularly with gun shops all over the place. Never have I heard of a gunshop refusing to sell remington because of QC issues.