XCR: Evolution & Piston-AR Alternative Q's

[Dave I]

Just a couple quickies on the XCR. I've been reading about the rifle and the company. Two questions:

1) Evolution: How has the rifle evolved over the past few years since its inception? I've read about some of the growing pains and how it seems like they were ironed out. Any thoughts on how it has changed, and if they were for the better or worse? Basically, wondering how/if they have gotten better over time.

2) XCR as a Gas-Piston AR-15 Alternative: How does the XCR function in that role? The AR15 is great, however I'm at least interested in learning about the piston-based options. For a nice, reliable piston rifle that has most/all of the stuff that makes people flock to AR-15's (reliability, ergonomics, accuracy, modularity, etc.), and a cleaner/cooler running gun, I am curious how well it does for that sort of niche.

Any thoughts (or links to other recent threads I might have missed)?

-Cheers

[sinlessorrow]

Originally Posted by Dave I

Just a couple quickies on the XCR. I've been reading about the rifle and the company. Two questions:

1) Evolution: How has the rifle evolved over the past few years since its inception? I've read about some of the growing pains and how it seems like they were ironed out. Any thoughts on how it has changed, and if they were for the better or worse? Basically, wondering how/if they have gotten better over time.

2) XCR as a Gas-Piston AR-15 Alternative: How does the XCR function in that role? The AR15 is great, however I'm at least interested in learning about the piston-based options. For a nice, reliable piston rifle that has most/all of the stuff that makes people flock to AR-15's (reliability, ergonomics, accuracy, modularity, etc.), and a cleaner/cooler running gun, I am curious how well it does for that sort of niche.

Any thoughts (or links to other recent threads I might have missed)?

-Cheers

IMO the XCR has to many things screwed down to make me comfortable with it.

if you want a piston rifle get a SCAR-L, now that is a nice piston rifle

[QuadBomb]

I wouldn't worry overmuch about the heat and dirtiness of the AR. Anyone here will tell you that it is designed to run hot and dirty, and it works just fine.

There are advantages to having a piston-driven rifle when it comes to things like running suppressed, short barrels, etc. If you like the XCR's combination of features over another rifle like the SCAR or ACR, then go ahead and get the XCR.

[Dave I]

Originally Posted by sinlessorrow

IMO the XCR has to many things screwed down to make me comfortable with it.

if you want a piston rifle get a SCAR-L, now that is a nice piston rifle

What's screwed down that makes you uncomfortable with it? Better than screwed up, no? (Sorry, I'm terrible at jokes.)

Actually, the SCAR is the other main non-AR15 I'm seriously considering

Originally Posted by QuadBomb

I wouldn't worry overmuch about the heat and dirtiness of the AR. Anyone here will tell you that it is designed to run hot and dirty, and it works just fine.

Honestly? I'll probably end up with a standard AR (or a piston-AR) AND a piston non-AR. I have an AR that I'm planning an upper swap at some point, possibly a PWS.

There are advantages to having a piston-driven rifle when it comes to things like running suppressed, short barrels, etc. If you like the XCR's combination of features over another rifle like the SCAR or ACR, then go ahead and get the XCR.

Yeah, I would eventually like to get a suppressor and maybe do the SBR thing (we'll see on the latter), and the ease of cleaning would be another perk. I'm not really worried about a DI-AR though, just thinking through my piston-driven rifle options.

I like the design of the XCR. As mentioned above, I'm also considering the SCAR. The main deterrents at this point are cost and looks. The looks are not important, and honestly it's growing on me fast. The cost is prohibitive. However, if/when the SCAR drops in price that could even the playing field. If the XCR was as reliable and exuded the same level of awesomeness in function as the SCAR, and cost less, I'd be game for getting it. Plus I like supporting the little guys if it is not going to bite me. However, FN has a pretty outstanding reputation from everything I've read (never been lucky enough to have one) and I'm really on the fence deciding between the two. There is a lot more info about the SCAR than the XCR at this point, hence the subject of this thread.

-Cheers

[sinlessorrow]

Originally Posted by Dave I

What's screwed down that makes you uncomfortable with it? Better than screwed up, no? (Sorry, I'm terrible at jokes.)

Actually, the SCAR is the other main non-AR15 I'm seriously considering



Honestly? I'll probably end up with a standard AR (or a piston-AR) AND a piston non-AR. I have an AR that I'm planning an upper swap at some point, possibly a PWS.



Yeah, I would eventually like to get a suppressor and maybe do the SBR thing (we'll see on the latter), and the ease of cleaning would be another perk. I'm not really worried about a DI-AR though, just thinking through my piston-driven rifle options.

I like the design of the XCR. As mentioned above, I'm also considering the SCAR. The main deterrents at this point are cost and looks. The looks are not important, and honestly it's growing on me fast. The cost is prohibitive. However, if/when the SCAR drops in price that could even the playing field. If the XCR was as reliable and exuded the same level of awesomeness in function as the SCAR, and cost less, I'd be game for getting it. Plus I like supporting the little guys if it is not going to bite me. However, FN has a pretty outstanding reputation from everything I've read (never been lucky enough to have one) and I'm really on the fence deciding between the two. There is a lot more info about the SCAR than the XCR at this point, hence the subject of this thread.

-Cheers

actually a lubed AR-15 will run hot and dirty for a long time, go look up filthy 14, also check out the pics in this thread 10,000 rounds no cleaning in the desert.

http://www.ar15.com/forums/t_3_118/5...my_LMT___.html

just to give you an idea of what the AR-15 can do when lubricated.

now the SCAR-L is probably one of the most tested rifles there is and was built specifically around input from SOCOM to the exact specifications they wanted.

it gets my vote over the XCR any day

[JPB]

I will quote myself from a previous XCR thread. I really like my XCR, but I understand what it is and isn't. It is a good performing rifle for someone who is "into guns" and frequently goes through, takes care of, and checks their gear. It isn't a general issue type rifle where it can be handed out to anyone and everyone and it be trusted to run and run forever (like a good quality AR/AK or a SCAR). Everything on an XCR is held on with threaded fasteners. Not the best arrangement for long term neglect. It's a fun gun for sure, but I think that most casual shooters would be better served with the SCAR. The performance tradeoffs aren't, in my opinion, significant enough to warrant the additional attention the XCR needs. Buy one to play with, but I'd suggest taking the time to really learn it before using it as a serious use rifle.

[cjt50]

Originally Posted by JPB

I will quote myself from a previous XCR thread. I really like my XCR, but I understand what it is and isn't. It is a good performing rifle for someone who is "into guns" and frequently goes through, takes care of, and checks their gear. It isn't a general issue type rifle where it can be handed out to anyone and everyone and it be trusted to run and run forever (like a good quality AR/AK or a SCAR). Everything on an XCR is held on with threaded fasteners. Not the best arrangement for long term neglect. It's a fun gun for sure, but I think that most casual shooters would be better served with the SCAR. The performance tradeoffs aren't, in my opinion, significant enough to warrant the additional attention the XCR needs. Buy one to play with, but I'd suggest taking the time to really learn it before using it as a serious use rifle.

Very well said, I own both and could not agree more. Once you learn the PM for the XCR, it's a great tool.

[Slvr Surfr]

I also own an XCR. It's a great gun if you know how to maintain one. Realistically they are not high maintenance guns, but they do require slightly more maintenance than your avg AR/AK.

I was drawn to the XCR by its blend of AR/AK/FAL features. The biggest complaint against the rifle is the Robinson Arms lack of customer service. They can be pretty horrible about the way they handle paying customers.

The http://xcrforum.com/ is a very good place to learn more about the gun and how they perform over the long term.

[jbsmwd]

Originally Posted by Slvr Surfr

I also own an XCR. It's a great gun if you know how to maintain one. Realistically they are not high maintenance guns, but they do require slightly more maintenance than your avg AR/AK.

I was drawn to the XCR by its blend of AR/AK/FAL features. The biggest complaint against the rifle is the Robinson Arms lack of customer service. They can be pretty horrible about the way they handle paying customers.

The http://xcrforum.com/ is a very good place to learn more about the gun and how they perform over the long term.

What he said.

Plus, if you like to tinker/mess with your guns to find out how they work, get some No.7 white polishing compound and use it between the bolt and bolt carrier and hand cycle the action. This will speed up that "break-in-period" of 300 hot 5.56 round through the gun. I have also taken a sapphire sharpening stone to the rails on the bolt carrier to knock off high points in the metal and finish. My XCR runs on gas setting #1 with 24.5 grains of TAC powder pushing Hornady 55 FMJ-BT. I have only put 250-300 rounds through the XCR so far.

If you are somebody that takes care of your stuff, ie PM's and cleaning, then a XCR could work for you. But you are the type that just wipe done a gun to get just the grime/dirt and not inspect the gun then no I would say no the XCR is not for you.

[VIP3R 237]

my question to you before you make a decision is: have you ever shot a xcr or scar?

I owned a scar for exactly 2 weeks and I tried to love it but after being so used to the ar15/m4 platform i really did not care for how the scar shot and ended up selling it last month. While I respect the engineering behind the design and there is ALOT of scar love out there, but I couldnt get used to how much the mass of the bcg rocked the gun back and forth, even with the fsc556.
Im sure you can, as many have, train around it but is it worth 2x of what a quality ar costs? ...Which is the main reason I sold it.

Now it has been a couple years since ive pulled the trigger on a xcr but I remember a similar feel. However the scar or even acr is generally considerede the superior platform.

The pws rifles do intrigue me and ive enjoyed shooting the ones ive had an opportunity to shoot.

[Jack-O]

1- there is just nothing wrong with a regular well made DI ar-15. Skip the piston conversions and remakes. IMO they are a mistake.
2-the XCR underwent a lot of changes that made it easier to live with, simpler, more reliable and more ergonomic. it's better now than it ever was. and it did it in about 6 years without a military contract.
3-the XCR rifle is simply one of the most flexible and ergonomic carbines on the market today and typifies "next generation" where other designs like the SCAR kind of straddles the line between generations (IMO).
4-it's no more difficult to maintain than any other weapon. just like every other rifle you need to know what it needs and give it that. you dont maintain an AR-15 like an M1 garand so why would you expect the XCR to work like an AR? Reliability has always been the realm of the operator.
5-the XCRforum is a sad, desolate place dominated by miserable unhappy people who rarely actually shoot their rifles. there is some good information to be had but finding it amongst the noise is quite difficult.

the XCR has matured and is GTG at this point. I dropped the AR entirely, in favor of this system after considerable testing and thought.

[sinlessorrow]

Originally Posted by Jack-O

1- there is just nothing wrong with a regular well made DI ar-15. Skip the piston conversions and remakes. IMO they are a mistake.
2-the XCR underwent a lot of changes that made it easier to live with, simpler, more reliable and more ergonomic. it's better now than it ever was. and it did it in about 6 years without a military contract.
3-the XCR rifle is simply one of the most flexible and ergonomic carbines on the market today and typifies "next generation" where other designs like the SCAR kind of straddles the line between generations (IMO).
4-it's no more difficult to maintain than any other weapon. just like every other rifle you need to know what it needs and give it that. you dont maintain an AR-15 like an M1 garand so why would you expect the XCR to work like an AR? Reliability has always been the realm of the operator.
5-the XCRforum is a sad, desolate place dominated by miserable unhappy people who rarely actually shoot their rifles. there is some good information to be had but finding it amongst the noise is quite difficult.

the XCR has matured and is GTG at this point. I dropped the AR entirely, in favor of this system after considerable testing and thought.

what exactly is Considerable testing?

You say the XCR is better than the SCAR, yet the SCAR is the most tested rifle in our history for military rifles, its also one of the only rifles designed for SOCOM around what they wanted in a rifle.

between the two I would choose the SCAR

[Jack-O]

Originally Posted by sinlessorrow

between the two I would choose the SCAR

Cool! It'll do the job if you can! FN makes fine rifles IME.

Originally Posted by sinlessorrow

what exactly is Considerable testing?

5-6 years of shooting and testing and classes, multiple rifles and different calibers, barrels, twists, ammo and configurations from long range to short range. Had some failures and some successes. enough to satisfy my need for consistency and reliability and to educate me on the system. That was the most important thing... educating myself. Nice to be able to talk to the designer about the in's and out's too. That was helpful at times.

[Quiet]

Anyone know why Robinson Armament withdrew the XCR from the US Army's Individual Carbine Competition before Phase 1 was complete?

Only five competitors are moving onto Phase 2.
ADCOR BEAR Elite
Colt APC
FNH FNAC
H&K HK416
Remington ACR

[sinlessorrow]

Originally Posted by Quiet

Anyone know why Robinson Armament withdrew the XCR from the US Army's Individual Carbine Competition before Phase 1 was complete?

Only five competitors are moving onto Phase 2.
ADCOR BEAR Elite
Colt CM901
FNH FNAC
H&K HK416
Remington ACR

Colt did not enter the CM901 and I dont blame them.

IF the company wins the TDP goes to 3 different companies to make the rifles, thats alot of people to know the secrets of your rifle.

The XCR wasnt entered because robinson does not have the manuf. capabilities to fill the miltary order so they opted to not participate.

Lasty the IC wont go anywhere since nothing offers any real advantages over an M4A1 especially after the PiP gets done with it.

I stil vote for the SCAR if you want a non M4 pattern rifle

[Dave I]

Originally Posted by Jack-O

1- there is just nothing wrong with a regular well made DI ar-15. Skip the piston conversions and remakes. IMO they are a mistake.

Why not consider them both? Really, there is only one piston AR I am seriously considering.

2-the XCR underwent a lot of changes that made it easier to live with, simpler, more reliable and more ergonomic. it's better now than it ever was. and it did it in about 6 years without a military contract.

[snip]

the XCR has matured and is GTG at this point. I dropped the AR entirely, in favor of this system after considerable testing and thought.

I think that is in part both one of its biggest strengths and weaknesses. I really like that they were able to evolve so quickly precisely because they are not held to a military contract. I think that really makes them much more capable of fixing any quirks and making an overall better product. However, it also makes me wonder about some of the earlier complaints. Mostly they dealt with needing to Loctite some things here or there and things dealing with CS or product availability from a smaller company. Just things to think about. If you're, y'know, me.

-Cheers

[Dave I]

Originally Posted by sinlessorrow

Colt did not enter the CM901 and I dont blame them.

IF the company wins the TDP goes to 3 different companies to make the rifles, thats alot of people to know the secrets of your rifle.

The XCR wasnt entered because robinson does not have the manuf. capabilities to fill the miltary order so they opted to not participate.

Lasty the IC wont go anywhere since nothing offers any real advantages over an M4A1 especially after the PiP gets done with it.

Yeah, while it makes business sense to compete, it seems like kind of a raw deal for the manufacturers in a lot of ways. I believe multiple manufacturers expressed disappointment that it was not about providing the best for our troops and how there is a risk in that, even if you provide the BEST, it has to be better enough and catered to the letter of their needs to move on. Otherwise, again even if your rifle is technically the best, it could be dumped in the first round and that's all your competition would ever talk about. It seemed kind of unfortunate.

I stil vote for the SCAR if you want a non M4 pattern rifle

Honestly, right now I'm considering a PWS MK1 (piston AR 15), ACR, or SCAR.I'd also be interested in the CZ 805 Bren, however that looks to be released in the States in 2017.

Originally Posted by VIP3R 237

my question to you before you make a decision is: have you ever shot a xcr or scar?

Unfortunately, no. There is no way I'm aware of where I'd have access to one other than to hold one. I know my LGS has an ACR, which I'm going to check out. I can probably find a SCAR. The XCR? Not likely.

The pws rifles do intrigue me and ive enjoyed shooting the ones ive had an opportunity to shoot.

Yeah, it does have the benefit of being a platform I've shot in the AR/M4 configuration, they have a good reputation for being very attentive to detail and customer satisfaction, not to mention for producing a very nice gun, and their CS is supposedly VERY good. They also seem reasonably priced, which is why I'm considering them so heavily since otherwise the piston AR's are largely about the same cost (or more) as the SCAR or ACR which have been build from the ground up as a piston-based rifle. I've read PWS did redesign some things for the piston-system and have tweaked things to improve on the product (the MK110 in particular). So that all tends to weigh heavily in their favor.

-Cheers

[Jack-O]

Originally Posted by Dave I

However, it also makes me wonder about some of the earlier complaints. Mostly they dealt with needing to Loctite some things here or there and things dealing with CS or product availability from a smaller company. Just things to think about. If you're, y'know, me.

-Cheers

those are valid thoughts for sure.

Over the years I found some additional channels for information, CS and supplies, namely Kermit Zahm. I also eventually adopted the perspective that if the AR required frequent cleaning or lubrication and technical knowledge/tools to assemble, adjust and maintain, why would it be a burden for me to check a few bolts and maybe add some locktite from time to time when I cleaned.

Frankly the locktite thing is way overblown IMO. In actual service over the last 5-6 years I've MAYBE added some blue locktite after the first 500 rounds then when removing screws for parts swaps. I dont recall having to re-apply after the initial application. It was always just kind of a common sense thing for me.

As for parts, they have been very affordable and readily available over my period of ownership, and even during the "darkest hours of customer service" I still was able to get what I needed in a timely manner. Kermit Zahm has been a great dealer resource for the XCR and remains a great intermediary when things get hectic at RA proper.

Thats been my experience tho. I know the internet is filled with squeaky wheels and you tend not to hear about the thousands of owners who had no problems and really love thier guns. I'm a rare exception that has had or seen all the problems and still likes the platform. maybe thats because I understand it so well at this point that I see how simple it really is. It's just so easy to work on and reliable when you care for it, it's hard to hate.

[jbsmwd]

Originally Posted by Dave I

I think that is in part both one of its biggest strengths and weaknesses. I really like that they were able to evolve so quickly precisely because they are not held to a military contract. I think that really makes them much more capable of fixing any quirks and making an overall better product. However, it also makes me wonder about some of the earlier complaints. Mostly they dealt with needing to Loctite some things here or there and things dealing with CS or product availability from a smaller company. Just things to think about. If you're, y'know, me.

-Cheers

Those are things to think about and there is modification for MOST of the screws on the gun.

The ejector screws: use rockset or weld it like VB did on his. New guns have locktite already. Mine did.

Bolt release screw: Rockset/red locktite

Safety levert: purple locktite.

Gas block: Rockset only no normal locktite will handle the heat. Or pin the gas block. VB had a pin place through the set screw and the gas block so the screw would not come out. I like that option better.

Barrel screw: The only thing come up with is using safety wire and drilling a small hole in the head of the bolt and sticking safety wire in there and a place in the rail. This is to be done after checking the torque on the bolt.

[Jack-O]

Originally Posted by jbsmwd

Those are things to think about and there is modification for MOST of the screws on the gun.

The ejector screws: use rockset or weld it like VB did on his. New guns have locktite already. Mine did.

Bolt release screw: Rockset/red locktite

Safety levert: Rockeset/red locktite.

Gas block: Rockset only no normal locktite will handle the heat. Or pin the gas block. VB had a pin place through the set screw and the gas block so the screw would not come out. I like that option better.

Barrel screw: The only thing come up with is using safety wire and drilling a small hole in the head of the bolt and sticking safety wire in there and a place in the rail. This is to be done after checking the torque on the bolt.

I've never had to to ANY of that, and REALLY recommend against red locktite on the safety lever screw. that thing is so tiny and soft you'd end up damaging the parts at a minimum or maybe the gun trying to remove them for maintenance. (having stripped one out with blue locktite!!)

proper torquing and Blue locktite has served me well, just like the manufacturer recommends.