Can a tier 2 AR/M4 be improved to tier 1 ?

[das]

Ok I started the "Do you like your Stag?" thread. Thank you for all of the replies. Now let me ask this. Can a AR/M4 that is not top tier be brought up to a good quality rifle? I was ignorant when I bought the Stag, hence the reason for the Spikes upper on a Stag lower. I personally dont care about the roll mark. The roll mark could be a streaming pile of horse manure for I care. But by replacing parts that arent mil spec with BCM or other quality parts can the rifle be brought up to a better more reliable level?

[Merle]

Good barrel + Good BCG + In spec upper and lower receivers = Good AR (more or less) Everything else is just trivial (Commercial RE, cheap rail, etc)

[djmorris]

If you're using a complete Spikes Tactical upper then I would leave it alone. The lower is hard to screw up and Stag uses CMT parts for their lower/LPK and that's pretty much what everybody else uses. I would only sell the current lower and replace it for a Spikes when the opportunity is available; if not just for the sake of having a "complete" weapon.

Spikes Tactical is not the *best* but they're one of the better.

What kind of BCG and charging handle are you using? If you want to "upgrade" then replace your current charging handle with a BCM Gunfighter. Depending on your BCG, you may want to replace that with a BCM. If it's a Spikes BCG then just leave it be.

edit: you could also just sell it on AR15 and buy a complete BCM, Colt, etc

[das]

I have complete Spikes LE upper on a stag lower and a 100% Stag that is unfired.

[interfan]

It can be diminishing returns to upgrade versus selling something and buying something better. There are a ton of threads on this site that basically offer the same advice.

[djmorris]

Originally Posted by das

I have complete Spikes LE upper on a stag lower and a 100% Stag that is unfired.

Spikes is usually GTG.

Like I said, replace the Stag lower with a Spikes when you get the chance just so you can have two complete rifles rather than 1 complete and 1 mutt. I guess that's more of a preference thing, though. After that, I'd sell the complete Stag you have and put the money towards a BCM or Colt, or an optic/ammo.

BCM Gunfighter charging handle is a must for both.

[BufordTJustice]

I look at it in terms of parts that CANNOT be easily replaced after the gun is built.

Everything in the lower is relatively easy to swap out except the takedown pins spring detents (those are little sons of bitches).

In the upper, the barrel (which includes the barrel extension, gas port size, and includes the quality of the barrel steel) cannot be quickly or easily swapped out unless you know how to and have the right tools. Same goes for the upper receiver if it is out-of-spec (i.e. the threads are not cut properly, the raceway is not parallel, the cam pin track is machined improperly, the actual heat treat/hardness of the upper is too soft, the anodizing of the upper is too soft or cheap, etc.

The problem is, the most expensive part of any standard format upper (with an FSB and no fancy free float handguards) is the barrel. The first place that cheapy makers save money is......THE BARREL. This means the employment of various grades of 4140 steel, with various quality levels of heat treat and finishing...with or without chrome lining.

This also includes gas ports that run on the large side (and are often inconsistent in size from gun-to-gun as they don't change their drill bit for the gas ports at the factory very often). This is for a few reasons. They may need a larger gas port to overcome some tolerance stacks in their non-mil-spec upper assemblies. Example: the upper receiver's threads are SLIGHTLY out of perpendicular to the bore centerline (I've seen it). This means that some binding occurs of the BCG as it cycles in the upper. Additionally, there may be a small gas leak between the gas key and the bolt carrier as those surfaces haven't undergone the additional prep-steps of having the surfaces smoothed and ready to be mated or the gas key screws haven't been torqued properly. Couple these two issue with a cheap (read: rough) surface finish on the type-II anodizing (which is MUCH cheaper and softer than the type III used on mil spec guns) inside the upper and you have a set of circumstances that REQUIRE a larger gas port so that most guns coming off the line will run properly.

The problem is, when you buy a gun from a manufacturer who doesn't adhere to the tight tolerances, dimensions, materials, and assembly techniques of the TDP, it's impossible to KNOW what is out of spec and what is not. So, it's not always as easy as swapping out a few parts. If your barrel, barrel extension, upper, or gas port are out of spec....you can't fix that without replacement.....which means you might as well buy a quality unit to begin with.

Make sense?

A cheap gun can be made MORE reliable by the substitution of quality parts just as a Nissan 370z can be made to perform better than stock with aftermarket upgrades. However, that 370z will never be a GTR. To get a GTR, you need to buy one of those. Even if the 370z gets a supercharger, drag slicks, a LSD, short shift kit, etc.....and it is able to equal the GTR in acceleration numbers (unlikely). Even IF that were to take place, it is still NOT a GTR.

To get a quality gun that adheres to the TDP (Technical Data Package), you simply have to buy one from a manufacturer that follows the TDP tot he letter.

I dare submit that an AR15, not assembled according to the requirements of the TDP (i.e. ALL lower-tier guns) is not really an AR15 at all....but a cheap clone thereof. I realize that this will ruffle some feathers but think about it in terms of handguns. Glock licenses some countries to make versions of Glock handguns in those countries. If you buy a Glock that is NOT made by Glock, or made to Glock's exact specs in every way, like one of these other entities....then do you REALLY have a Glock? Or do you have, at that point, a less-than-perfect copy?

[BufordTJustice]

Originally Posted by djmorris

Spikes is usually GTG.

Like I said, replace the Stag lower with a Spikes when you get the chance just so you can have two complete rifles rather than 1 complete and 1 mutt. I guess that's more of a preference thing, though. After that, I'd sell the complete Stag you have and put the money towards a BCM or Colt, or an optic/ammo.

BCM Gunfighter charging handle is a must for both.

I use a Spikes lower and it has been in spec in every dimension and the finish has worn very well.

I have had several local buddies buy their stuff and they have turned out to be good running guns. They are better than the gun store lot (Bushmaster, DPMS, Olympic Arms, CMMG, Model 1 sales, Stag), but I am still not certain that they are on-par with BCM, LMT, DD, or Colt (among others). I know the owner made an a$$ of himself a while back on this and other forums. But that is over now and his guns seem to be of consistent quality.

[djmorris]

Originally Posted by BufordTJustice

I dare submit that an AR15, not assembled according to the requirements of the TDP (i.e. ALL lower-tier guns) is not really an AR15 at all....but a cheap clone thereof. I realize that this will ruffle some feathers but think about it in terms of handguns. Glock licenses some countries to make versions of Glock handguns in those countries. If you buy a Glock that is NOT made by Glock, or made to Glock's exact specs in every way, like one of these other entities....then do you REALLY have a Glock? Or do you have, at that point, a less-than-perfect copy?

I second this.

A shitty rifle such as DPMS and Bushmaster are not true AR15/M4's. They are not quality and they certainly are not built to spec. Say what you will, but to me they are just clones. It's like trying to say the Taurus PT92 is a Beretta 92... it's just not true...... it's a cheap imitation.

[yossarian42]

I have a stag with their "plus package" which upgrades the barrel steel to carpenter 158, 1/7 twist hp mp all that jazz. Basically brings it to the standards of "the chart." It's accurate, feels well made to me but I only have this rifle. I did shoot someone's RRA yesterday and it has a cheap feel to it. The buffer spring sounded way loud (not sure if that matters or why it is so loud compared to mine. Maybe a lighter buffer, semi carrier?) rails feel cheap etc.

I ordered a midlength bcm upper on election night. Hammer forged barrel. I didn't find this site until after I bought the stag which I thought I had researched fairly well. This site is the ONLY site that has negative views on the lower tier AR's but I know that's because this site is largely military and professional shooters.

When I buy something I don't like to cheap out, so had I known I'd have bought a bcm from the beginning. I'm going to use the stag lower until I eventually piece together a bcm lower. Then ill have two AR's. I'd rather have two than sell the stag.


Sent from my iPhone using Fapatalk

[polymorpheous]

Originally Posted by BufordTJustice

*snipped*

This is an excellent response.
Thanks for posting.

[GunFighter98]

Its just easier to buy tier 1 the first time. You can only polish a turd so much.

[das]

Originally Posted by yossarian42

I have a stag with their "plus package" which upgrades the barrel steel to carpenter 158, 1/7 twist hp mp all that jazz. Basically brings it to the standards of "the chart." It's accurate, feels well made to me but I only have this rifle. I did shoot someone's RRA yesterday and it has a cheap feel to it. The buffer spring sounded way loud (not sure if that matters or why it is so loud compared to mine. Maybe a lighter buffer, semi carrier?) rails feel cheap etc.

I ordered a midlength bcm upper on election night. Hammer forged barrel. I didn't find this site until after I bought the stag which I thought I had researched fairly well. This site is the ONLY site that has negative views on the lower tier AR's but I know that's because this site is largely military and professional shooters.

When I buy something I don't like to cheap out, so had I known I'd have bought a bcm from the beginning. I'm going to use the stag lower until I eventually piece together a bcm lower. Then ill have two AR's. I'd rather have two than sell the stag.


Sent from my iPhone using Fapatalk

This is my same experience. Live and learn I guess.

[scottryan]

Originally Posted by das

Ok I started the "Do you like your Stag?" thread. Thank you for all of the replies. Now let me ask this. Can a AR/M4 that is not top tier be brought up to a good quality rifle? I was ignorant when I bought the Stag, hence the reason for the Spikes upper on a Stag lower. I personally dont care about the roll mark. The roll mark could be a streaming pile of horse manure for I care. But by replacing parts that arent mil spec with BCM or other quality parts can the rifle be brought up to a better more reliable level?

It will cost you more money to bring a tier 2 level gun up to spec, than just buying the tier 1 in the first place.

[BudJr]

since you've already bought the lower, I would buy a quality LPK to replace the original, BUT if this isn't your go to defense weapon I'd run the crap out of the original lower and get my money's worth out of it before replacing parts.

[Surf]

What exactly is wrong with the rifle(s) that you have now? Do they satisfy your current needs / uses?

[TehLlama]

Yes, it absolutely can be done.

Unfortunately, usually at a higher cost than simply selling the existing rifle and buying a Colt from scratch. I've done the former, twice, and I love those rifles, but the resale value on them is nowhere near what I put into them, so I've written off most of that sunk cost as the price of learning the whole buy once cry once rule.

When even eating the cost of reselling what you already have and paying MSRP puts you ahead, don't feel bad about it, that's just how it is. It doesn't cost a whole lot more to do the QC/QA to make a rifle top tier, but that kind of stuff adds up, and is why an RRA/Bushhampster/DPMS type rifle is only one or two bills cheaper than a top of the line one.

[Gun]

Originally Posted by Surf

What exactly is wrong with the rifle(s) that you have now? Do they satisfy your current needs / uses?

To add to this, how many rounds have you shot thru the ST/Stag combo? Are you having any malfunctions?

[Skintop911]

Excellent thread on improving guns that may be sub-par:
http://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=7376

[das]

The Stag Lower and Spikes Upper works well. I already mentioned the Stag is older and unfired. I consider any gun I own to perform to defend my life and my families. That is why I have the concern about the Stag. Just a side note, and I mean no disrespect to anyone. This site has a great wealth of knowledge, that is a FACT, however some posters aren't very friendly to new guys that aren't as knowledgeable has so many are here. Maybe consider some of us are here to learn from those that have far more and extensive knowledge and experience than others. Dom