Glock 21: How bad is it?

[John_Wayne777]

What I've heard from a number of people who are in a position to see LOTS of G21s is that they tend to be more problematic than the 9mm incarnations of the Glock. In fact, just recently there was a thread about the G21 and M4C's own USMC03 and DocGKR essentially said that the G21 tends to exhibit more issues in issue numbers than the 9mm Glocks. Both of these individuals are in positions which brings them into contact with large-scale users of various weapons platforms.

Here again the results one gets from a platform would have to be considered with how they use the platform. If you are an average joe you're probably a lot more likely to have a positive experience with your G21 than those who have dealt with the weapons in issue numbers in the past.

Part of the reason the G21 has gotten the ick face from some folks in the industry might be a result of how Glock inc. handled issues with their weapon when they came up.

[SHIVAN]

Yep, my 21SF will probably NEVER see 3,000rds - in it's whole life. It will do what I need it to do in the meantime though.

[jmart]

Originally Posted by John_Wayne777

Part of the reason the G21 has gotten the ick face from some folks in the industry might be a result of how Glock inc. handled issues with their weapon when they came up.

So, after Glock made their mods (new trigger bar and updated striker and/or striker spring IIRC), is the Model 21 considered as reliable as the 9mm patterned guns?

Jeff, if you are tracking this thread, does your dept issue the Model 21 for any officers? Do you have first hand experience with this pattern (both pre- and post-fixes) or is your understanding based on other depts' and/or instructors' experiences?

[John_Wayne777]

Originally Posted by jmart

So, after Glock made their mods (new trigger bar and updated striker and/or striker spring IIRC), is the Model 21 considered as reliable as the 9mm patterned guns?

An excellent question....one that perhaps someone like ToddG or DocGKR or USMC03 can answer for us.

[Slater]

Given Glock's overall reputation and the number of rounds that I would probably put through it, I'm sure that it would be fine. It's just when you hear someone of Larry Vickers reputation having a less than stellar opinion of any gun, one tends to take notice.

I'm not a Glock expert by any means, so I'm an adherent of the philosophy "Shut the Hell up and listen to those who know"., which includes listening to the many informed opinions on this board.

[ToddG]

I'm certainly not about to speak for Larry. The testing he did is far more valuable than my own anecdotal experience.

I would say the G23 is the most problematic model I've seen, both in my personal experience and the experience of various individuals and agencies I've dealt with. The .45 GAP guns could probably beat it in the "don't touch" department but they're so rare it's hard to get a serious read on them. The one unit I know that tested the .45 GAP Glock rejected it, and I know Pennsylvania State Police had a stoppage the first time one of their G37's was used in a fight.

The major issue with the G21 has been magazines, from what I've seen. Glock has been through multiple iterations of the mag.

I'm amazed that anyone who is involved in serious regular training (as a student, instructor, or both) can say he's never seen a Glock fail in a class. I've experienced it personally with both a G23 and a G19, and I've seen it countless times among students. Of course, Glocks also frequently make up half or more of a class's population so it's only fair to factor that into the equation.

I have nothing against the Glock 9mm pistols (though I don't think they're any better than the competition, either). In other calibers, they are much more hit and miss.

One final thought about the G21: it doesn't surprise me at all that people have put thousands of rounds through their own G21's. The difference between a car considered extremely reliable and one considered extremely unreliable is usually just a few percentage points in returns/complaints. I've spoken to people who have flawless Jennings, too, and certainly that doesn't prove the brand or model is great. Are G21's all going to have problems? No ... especially under the common conditions most users will face at the round counts they're likely to see. But is it more likely to have problems than some of the competition? Probably.

People get far too emotionally attached to their handguns and defensive when anyone suggests that they're anything but perfect.

edited to add: Without question, the 1911 is by far the most stoppage- and malfunction-prone gun I've seen in classes. Stock guns, custom guns, and everything in between.

[Grey]

I think too many people have an almost emotional or religious attachment to their weapons. Not to sound cheesy, but you are the weapon. The pistol is just the implement of your will. We all have many factors that need to be considered in choosing a weapon. Just like in most everything else our choice is based on a series of tradeoffs. We consciously decide to give-up certain things in order to gain others. The important thing is so consider the tradeoffs carefully.

There are so many great options available to us in today’s market. There is a gun for almost everyone out there. However it is up to you to decide what works best for you and for your set of circumstances and situation. My needs are simple. I want a high capacity pistol in .45 ACP. It need to be reliable in a variety of conditions and It has to operate in a wet climate. So for me with XXL sized hands the Glock 21 has been my go to pistol for over 10 years.

Still others have different requirements. I am not sure if passing the bag of sand test is as high on my list of things a gun needs to do as it may be for others. I think Larry’s student are probably more likely to carry a pistol in a drop leg holsters with the weapon more exposed to sand and grit. Imagine rolling around on the ground in Iraq during a struggle, then needing your gun to function… I always carry concealed. So if I am fighting in a sand pit in eastern Washington, then my pistol will not be as likely to come in contact with as much sand as say a soldier in Iraq.

Personally I am taking this test as it is and at face value. I appreciate Larry’s comments because he is Larry Vickers. I am not willing or able to pass judgment on the basic service level agreement of any pistol design or in its ability to handle a bag of sand. At the end of the day this test has had no bearing on my decision to carry a Glock 21 and Glock 30 respectively. It did make me think about it for a while. But for now I am sticking with the Glock 21/Glock 30.

[kaltblitz]

I have one of the newer G21's I purchased 08/06.

So far it's been 100% reliable, even with a Surefire X200 attached. It's my duty gun and so far has had about 2,500 rounds put through it. I intend to use it in Viking Tactic's pistol class in a couple weeks and I'm sure it will continue to be 100% reliable.

I had a G22 before that was consistantly problematic that I eventually traded away. What I've learned with most handguns is that if you keep them clean and lubed and change out the springs occasionally they will serve you well. I'm sorry to hear that the G21 in Mr. Vickers' test did not do well, but that won't make me take mine out of my duty holster.

[John_Wayne777]

Originally Posted by ToddG

I'm amazed that anyone who is involved in serious regular training (as a student, instructor, or both) can say he's never seen a Glock fail in a class.

I would guess that's because generally people who spend time actually training with weapons figure out that sooner or later everything breaks.....

Even stuff with Gaston's name on it.

Damn.....I gotta watch saying stuff like that or the tupperware jedi's will sense a disturbance in the force and then threaten to come show me how well their Glocks work with me on the business end of it again.....

[NCPatrolAR]

Think my IQ dropped reading that GT thread

[DocGKR]

There are many G21's that function well. The problem, as LAPD, SCPD, and other agencies have found, is that unlike the G17, when looked at in aggregate a significant number of G21's do NOT work perfectly.

Mr. Vickers is widely acknowledged as one of the best pistolsmiths currently working, as well as the only member of the American Pistolsmith's Guild to concurrently serve on active duty in the U.S. military. Mr. Vickers served in numerous SOF assignments, including Combat Development, as well as having worked as a consultant in the firearms industry. Mr. Vickers has had a hand in the genesis of several SOF combat systems. He may have more experience with the technical aspects of pistols used in combat environments than just about anyone else on earth, as the organization he served with shot in excess of one million rounds of .45 ACP per year, as well as significant amounts of 9 mm ammunition. Some individuals may be unaware that Mr. Vickers was a key person responsible for getting Glocks accepted into use by U.S. SOF personnel. Mr. Vickers clearly understands and acknowledges the benefits and limitations of each small arm, including M1911’s, Glocks, HK’s, M9’s, P226’s, etc… All the statements I have seen Mr. Vickers make have been unbiased and based on extensive, hard won experience. In short, regarding this topic you can take what he says to the bank… His public comments regarding Glocks are right on target: "The 9 mm Glocks (G17/19) are the best, the .40 S&W ones (G22/G23) blow-up, and the full size .45 (G21) breaks; the Glock 21 is a dog and always has been. It has the reputation as the worst gun Glock makes”.

I would love it if the G21 was profoundly robust and reliable—-what is there not to like? Unfortunately, it is not. Based on my personal experiences, as well as what I have observed, a stock Glock 17 would be my first out of the box choice for a rugged hard use pistol. Weapons are tools; the minute a better pistol is identified, I’ll be recommending that one. Folks wanting a non-1911 .45 ACP pistol are probably best served by a M&P or HK45, not a G21 or Sig P220.

The bottom line is that G21's have consistently demonstrated too many problems to be considered a hard use combat pistol. Personally, I love Glocks, but only in 9 mm…

[rhino]

If Glock had quit making different models after, oh, say, the Glock 17, then they term "Glock Perfection" would be significantly more meaningful.

The Glock 17 is a great gun. I don't like them (my fingers are too short and chubby to reach the trigger properly), but I can't deny they are great guns. Adapting its basic design to other calibers has been less spectacular (as DocKGR notes above).

I still think most of the police departments that orginally had the G17, but switched to the caliber du jour made a big mistake. Regardless of how well individual specimens perform (and yes, I mean YOU if you're thinking right now, "Well, MY Glock XX has functioned 100% for 50 bajillion rounds!"), none of the other models will ever be as reliable in total as the G17. The G19 might come close, but probably not.

The allure of bigger bullets seems nigh unto irresistable for some. I don't think there is a significant difference in terminal ballistics between a .40S&W and a modern 9mm JHP, yet some simply must have a gun that is less reliable and significantly more difficult to shoot well. I see this as an even bigger problem for organizations (as opposed to individuals) that will inevitably have members who can't shoot well at all, so it's a bad idea to give them a weapon that recoils more and is demonstratably less reliable.

It hasn't been too long since the Indiana State Police had problems with a significant number of Glock 22 pistols, which Glock could neither explain away nor remedy. The solution was to trade for Glock 17s for everyone. Some saw that as a downgrade because of the caliber, but I think they're in much better shape now.

If I were forced to carry a Glock, it would be a G17.

[Lumpy196]

To quote from the test:

"6)The shocker of the day - the Glock 21 FAILED terribly. The big problem was failure of the trigger to reset. Also at times the pistol would not fire due to sand in the trigger mechanism. The dry test could not even be completed with the Glock due to this.This surprised all of us as we expected the Glock to do quite well."



Keeping this within the context of the original post, this same test applied to any Glock would likely have the same result.

[markm]

Originally Posted by ToddG

edited to add: Without question, the 1911 is by far the most stoppage- and malfunction-prone gun I've seen in classes. Stock guns, custom guns, and everything in between.

This has been my experience too. The guns dragging a class down in my experience are 1911s.... Generally Kimbers since they're most commonly found in classmate's hands.

As I always say... Don't get me wrong. I love the 1911. I'll be shooting one today for recreational purposes... but...

We have to get over the romance of carrying the legacy 1911 pistol and get down to the business of shooting bad guys more efficiently.

[scottp999]

Originally Posted by ToddG

The major issue with the G21 has been magazines, from what I've seen. Glock has been through multiple iterations of the mag.

I would agree with that statement. I've had a G21 (2nd gen) since 1992. One failure to eject on an original (gen 1 - non-dropfree) mag that was over 10 years old at the time.

[Justin Walker]

My experience with the G21 has not been very positive. I started out carrying it on duty, but when my round count got to around 5k on the pistol I began to have light primer strikes.

I contacted Glock and they shipped me a new trigger bar. The new trigger bar was installed, and the gun ran fine for the first couple hundred rounds, but then the light primer strikes started occurring again. It got to the point I was having a light primer strike every 50-60 rounds. At that point I had no confidence with in the gun, so I got rid of it.

With this being said if you have a G21, and haven't had any problems good for you. There are lots of guys at my department who carry them and have not had any problems at all.

Justin

[jmart]

Originally Posted by DocGKR

The problem, as LAPD, SCPD, and other agencies have found, is that unlike the G17, when looked at in aggregate a significant number of G21's do NOT work perfectly.

All the statements I have seen Mr. Vickers make have been unbiased and based on extensive, hard won experience. In short, regarding this topic you can take what he says to the bank… His public comments regarding Glocks are right on target: "The 9 mm Glocks (G17/19) are the best, the .40 S&W ones (G22/G23) blow-up, and the full size .45 (G21) breaks; the Glock 21 is a dog and always has been. It has the reputation as the worst gun Glock makes”.

The bottom line is that G21's have consistently demonstrated too many problems to be considered a hard use combat pistol. Personally, I love Glocks, but only in 9 mm…

Larry conducted his test in 2001.

LAPD had their issues much later.

Glock has incorporated design changes in current production since these two events.

Does your (and do you know if Larry's) opinion on current production Model 21's remain the same? If so, is it based on the observation that you're still
seeing the same problems (i.e., the redesign didn't fix the original problem) or do observations from the past still formulate the basis of your opinion on them?

[CarlosDJackal]

My first Glock was a 21 and I still own this pistol. I can't really think of any issues I've had with this pistol and in fact, it is still my nightstand pistol (with Nitrolon light attached).

As far as grip size, this is entirely personal preference. I don't have big hands but I actually had to put on one of those Hogue handgun condoms on my Glock 21 to make it more comfortable. YMMV.

[Slater]

What design changes are incorporated in current G21's?

[jmart]

From my recollection, they modified the trigger bar, and they may ship with either a HD striker spring or a lightened striker, not sure on that.

The large frame strikers are/were heavier than the strikers used in the 9mm/Sig/S&W frames. My memories fuzzy on this but I'm pretty sure I picked up somewhere along the way that Glock either decreased the weight of the striker or increased the weight of the striker spring to get better striker velocity. They also may recommend replacement of selected springs at more frequent intervals than previously, anyone been to an armorer's class lately?

I'm not sure what was modded on the trigger bar.

I know with .40's they changed out the mag springs to a heavier duty model, I understand that was precipitated by feed failures with lights attached.

Not sure if there have been mag changes to the Model 21's, but the LAPD issue was a light strike issue. Feeding was fine, it was just that the gun wouldn't go bang. Not good.

From what I gather it took a long tome for Glock to diagnose and address the issue, but Glock now claims it's addressed. I'm just looking for empirical data which would corroborate or refute Glock's assertion. But I'd like an informed opinion that's based on newer, "corrected" samples because I think it's pretty much accepted that older models had issues.

Lastly, someone chime in, but as I understand it, LAPD/SWAT/whoever stopped using their Model 21's until Glock addressed the issue. Does anyone know if they are now back in service? The LEO organization who brought this to light, are they now satisfied that the platform is GTG?