Going crazy with first SBR build questions-10.5/11.5/12.5?

Sarah · #1 11-21-12, 19:08

I have been reading and researching on my own for weeks and would like some opinions to help me out. I'm torn between the PWS 12.5, 10.5, BCM 11.5 or Noveske 10.5 or 12.5 with switchblock

This will be my first SBR and here is what I'm looking for:

-Lightweight (I'm 100 lbs with tiny arms so ounces do add up for me

)
-Suppressed 95% of the time (eventually down the road, but not initially)
-going to be a SHTF, desert training class,HD gun
-while not intending to ever use crappy ammo, I want it be able to eat what I feed it and don't want it too finicky.....

Thanks!!

El Cid · #2 11-21-12, 19:32

I'd recommend an 11.5" setup. With a can you'll be back near 16" length anyway. It gives 40% more dwell time on the bolt than a 10.5" bbl. BCM did the research on that (the info is here on the site somewhere). If you must have a 10.5" then Noveske is one of the few (including DD, Centurion, and LMT) I'd trust to build one.

My philosophy on the 12.5" is that you're getting close to a point where I personally have a hard time justifying the PITA/cost of going NFA when I can get a pinned 14.5" and have it now. Plus I save that $200 donation to the govt.

If you want a complete factory SBR (you won't have to engrave your name/city on the rifle) then I'd suggest a Colt 6933. If you are building your own and can afford it - then I'd suggest doing what I did. Buy a Noveske 11.5" bbl and use that.

I can't comment on PWS rifles. Haven't been exposed to them.

RGoose · #3 11-21-12, 20:12

If you want the absolute lightest go with a 10.5" Noveske without a Switchblock. While it works very well, it's not necessary for proper functioning. I recently built a new upper based around a Centurion Arm 10.5" barrel and so far it's been reliable with a variety of ammo, both suppressed and unsuppressed (only 600 rounds through it so far). But so is my 11.5" BCM. I don't have any experience with a 12.5" upper, but I know Iraqgunz has a BCM Kino that I believe has treated him well.

I don't have any experience with PWS beyond their FC556, but if it's a quality build 2,000 rounds to me doesn't seem like a whole lot, especially if you can get it for a good price.

308sako · #4 11-21-12, 21:02

But the 11.5 is what I run suppressed with an AAC SPR M4. I choose the Bravo company light weight and could not be more pleased.

I am a member and shoot at Desert Sportsman in Las Vegas if you want to get the feel of such a rifle.

Do a search of some of my posts like the link...

http://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=111497

Noodles · #5 11-21-12, 21:05

I did a 12.5" so I could use the 11" rails, I have long arms so they fit me a little better. If I wasn't down for an 11" NSR rail, I would have gotten an 11.5 barrel.

But I see no practical distinction between 12.5" and 11.5" and should be slightly more reliable / less finicky than 10" barrels.

Perhaps if I didn't have plans for an 8" 300blk I would have considered a mk18/10.5" a little harder.

Adam_s · #6 11-21-12, 21:31

11.5" or 12.5" for a suppressed setup. From my reading, they are a little easier to get running, and there is very minimal weight difference.

I did an 11.5" all Centurion SBR upper a few months back, and it's the heat. I think my next will be either another 11.5" with a 9" DD MFR rail, or a 12.5" with the MFR 12".

VIP3R 237 · #7 11-21-12, 21:43

If you are running supressed most of the time the PWS is hard to beat. Im usually not one to recommend a external piston design but i'm been very impressed with the PWS rifles.

matemike · #8 11-21-12, 22:07

I advise against the 10.5" because of the 40% more dwell time achieved by going only one inch longer. And(anybody please correct me here) many, most, possibly all suppressor manufacturers will not warrant their cans on anything less than or equal to a 10.5" barrel. So why press that luck?

And 12.5" is too long. You compensating for something? hehe
Like mentioned above, if you go 12.5, might as well just go 14.5" and pinned at that point.

11.5" is perfect middle of the road.

FWIW, my 11.5" BCM with AAC M4-2000 mounted is the exact same length as my S&W 16" with an AAC muzzle brake device on the end.

calvin118 · #9 11-21-12, 22:51

If you:

-want something as short as possible.
-will shoot suppressed all the time
-don't care about having as little flash and noise as possible for external observers; suppression needed only to prevent temporarily compromise in hearing and night vision.
-know that you will always have access to hand picked premium defensive ammunition
-will never need to worry about longer range terminal performance
-don't care about long range external ballistics

then you should get a 10.5" barrel with an AAC mini 4, AAC brake, a Syrac adjustable gas block, and a standard buffer tube. Put the suppressor on, load up your favorite self defense ammo, adjust the GB accordingly, and forget about it. The extra $ for the Syrac will be less expensive than sending in a .059 gas port barrel to have it cut down, and will offer adaptability if you ever decide you want to shoot unsuppressed and/or feed it cheap ammo.

On the other hand, you may have a desire to shoot both suppressed and unsuppressed. Perhaps you want to take the suppressor off when you get in and out of vehicles or move in confined spaces, but you don't want to constantly fiddle with gas block settings (or have a huge gas port) and need your gun to remain reliable should a sudden need arise. Perhaps you have a job where you have to do a lot of hiking or patrolling, and don't want an extra 17 ounces and 6" dangling off the end of your gun all day. Or maybe you just like to shoot unsuppressed sometimes.

For a gun that readily goes back and forth between being shot suppressed and unsuppressed and remains reliable and shootable with as wide a range of ammunition as possible, I would go with the 12.5". The extra 2" of dwell time will give the gun a much wider envelope of ammo tolerance in terms of cycling lighter loads while at the same time remaining (reasonably) controllable with heavy loads at a static gas port size. Instead of the Syrac gas block (which may not be practical to fiddle with on the go), get a standard gas block and a VLTOR A5 buffer system.

If you want to shoot both suppressed and unsuppressed, then you will probably want a flash hider because brakes are utterly obnoxious to shoot on SBR's. If you are going with the flash hider option, this is another reason to go with a 12.5" barrel. It will be significantly less punishing on your suppressor without the brake's sacrificial baffle, and will also be a lot less obnoxious to shoot unsuppressed than the 10.5".

If you are concerned that you might not have access to high quality defensive ammo or want a gun with better external and terminal ballistics at range, you should also favor a 12.5". With sub-optimal ammo, you might only have a few yards of ideal terminal performance (if any) with a 10.5" barrel and the 12.5" provides some cushion. Even with quality ammo, the 12.5" barrel will provide you extra ideal terminal performance range and flatter shooting at distance (if that is important to you).

In summary, I see a 10.5" barrel as very well suited to a dedicated suppressed gun used for home defense. The more you need the gun to shoot both suppressed and unsuppressed with a wide variety of ammunition, and the more you need extra velocity for fragmentation range with suboptimal ammo and flatter trajectory, then the more you should favor the 12.5" (which to me is the best overall compromise between external ballistics, portability, and ammo tolerance). To me, the difference in balance and portability between a 12.5" barrel and a 14.5" barrel is significant and for all purposes (including suppressed shooting) I feel that 12.5" is the way to go.

To me, an 11.5" is a compromise that splits the difference. If you can't decide what 'side' of the argument you favor (or lean towards a very compact gun but want some of the benefits of increased velocity and dwell time) and can only have one upper, this might be the way to go.

That is my $.02.

BigLarge · #10 11-22-12, 02:43

^^^^

excellent post by this man

devinsdad · #11 11-22-12, 03:32

The 11.5 gives the best results between reliability and compactness. A 12.5 with muzzle device gets wacky close to not doing it at all. The 10.5's lose dwell time for not too much more compactness at the sake of reliability. Ultimately it's your decision, but if you are asking, go with the 11.5 and don't look back.

Breadman · #12 11-22-12, 05:43

I have a BCM 11.5 upper and a Daniel Defense 10.3 upper. The 11.5 is kind of a do all sbr with a 1-4 power scope on it. The DD is always run suppressed with an Aimpoint T1.
Two different focuses. The 11.5 was my first and if I could only have one, that's what it would be.

davidt · #13 11-22-12, 10:21

Love my BCM 11.5" upper. About all I can add.

WS6 · #14 11-22-12, 10:55

According to Noveske there is ZERO difference in reliability between their 10.5" and 12.5" uppers.

Sarah · #15 11-22-12, 19:57

[quote]

Quote:

=matemike;1448169]And 12.5" is too long. You compensating for something? hehe
Like mentioned above, if you go 12.5, might as well just go 14.5" and pinned at that point.
11.5" is perfect middle of the road.

Well I don't know what I'd be compensating for....I'm a 100lb chick with more than adequate rack LOL.

I may suppress it down the line, but for right this moment I'd have it unsuppressed.
I'm on a MAJOR spending spree ...new Noveske AR (bought two days ago), and this SBR build, so rather than pay another $200 for another tax stamp and a can, I'd spend that money on optics/ammo/training classes for right now.

I appreciate everyone's advice, and I'm leaning towards the BCM 11.5, but am going to look into Centurion. I am still tempted by the Noveske 10.5 and keep flip flopping in my mind.

I do want a lighter set up, possibly doing the Troy TRX rails unless anyone has any other suggesstions.....

this is my first SBR and I want to do it right, I dont' mind paying for quality but don't want to overpay. I'd much rather spend $$$ on getting the best set up for me than on dumb shoes, clothes and handbags

VIP3R 237 · #16 11-22-12, 20:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sarah

Well I don't know what I'd be compensating for....I'm a 100lb chick with more than adequate rack LOL.

And Sarah wins the internet.

I would look for the newer Troy Alpha or Bravo rail vs the older trx series, these utilize a much better mounting system.

RyanB · #17 11-22-12, 21:05

Sarah, look into the Noveske NSR.

calvin118 · #18 11-22-12, 22:17

[quote=Sarah;1448841]

Quote:

Well I don't know what I'd be compensating for....I'm a 100lb chick with more than adequate rack LOL.

I may suppress it down the line, but for right this moment I'd have it unsuppressed.
I'm on a MAJOR spending spree ...new Noveske AR (bought two days ago), and this SBR build, so rather than pay another $200 for another tax stamp and a can, I'd spend that money on optics/ammo/training classes for right now.

I appreciate everyone's advice, and I'm leaning towards the BCM 11.5, but am going to look into Centurion. I am still tempted by the Noveske 10.5 and keep flip flopping in my mind.

I do want a lighter set up, possibly doing the Troy TRX rails unless anyone has any other suggesstions.....

this is my first SBR and I want to do it right, I dont' mind paying for quality but don't want to overpay. I'd much rather spend $$$ on getting the best set up for me than on dumb shoes, clothes and handbags

My Centurion 11.5" barrel shipped with a ~.063 gas port and would not even cycle weak .223 with a carbine buffer. If you reload this might not be a big deal, but I infer that you may not. The BCM with its larger gas port (.076 I believe) would probably be a better choice if you are going to be shooting unsuppressed (at least for now) and presumably using inexpensive ammo for training. I have both, and also prefer the NSR to the TRX alpha although both are quality rails.

I would suggest the following given your wants:

-BCM 11.5" standard weight barrel. The weight difference is smaller with SBR's between standard and LW, and standard will minimize POI shift on your future suppressor.
-Syrac adjustable gas block.
-A2 flash hider until you decide what suppressor you will get in the future.
-NSR or TRX alpha 9" rail. There are no 10" tubes that I would want on my gun, and quad rails will be heavier and provide you with little added benefit. An 11" rail on a 11.5" barrel won't leave enough room for a future suppressor.
-Standard upper receiver
-BCM auto BCG
-BCM mod 4 CH

N.Franklin · #19 11-22-12, 22:47

KAC SR15 SBR without the flip up sight gas block.

scottryan · #20 11-22-12, 22:50

The 11.5" will be the most trouble free with a wide variety of hunting, plinking, and military ammunition using regular USGI springs and buffers.

The only barrels I trust are Colt, DD, BCM, and Noveske in this length.

I would just buy a Colt 6933 and you can upgrade it later if you want. You will need most of the parts off the 6933 so I would just buy one and get it over with.