If I were buying a new AR today...

[rob_s]

...I'd buy a Noveske N4 Recce. Doubly so if it was my first AR.

I guess because I compiled a list of features into a chart there are people that assume I know what I'm talking about and I get PMs and emails fairly regularly from people that want to know what they should buy. I must admit, I find this somewhat odd as I'm just a general contractor that likes to shoot and train, and not a cop or a soldier with any actual reliance on a firearm day to day. But, since I keep getting asked, I thought I'd put my opinions in one place.

first of all, let me say that the Colt 6920 is still the Alpha and the Omega. You just can't go wrong with one. I know of almost no one that has purchased a 6920 and later wished they had purchased anything else. However, I do think that there are other, and maybe even better, options.

The rifle that I keep pointing almost all first-time buyers to is the N4 Light Recce Basic 16" for $1,425.



Let me be very up front as say that I do so without having actually even seen one first hand (although I've seen a couple of the 14.5" versions). I have, however, seen a ton of Noveske's work and am smart enough to defer to guys who know a lot more about these things than I do, and Noveske is pretty well universally respected by almost anyone that knows anything in the industry.

I suggest the Recce Basic for a variety of reasons. First of all is the price. Clyde Armory is currently taking backorders on the Colt 6920 at $1,350 (and if you're going to buy a Colt, you'd be hard pressed to find better vendor). Basically for $75 more you get the N4 with a midlength gas system and a barrel with an improved, and more reasonable, profile as well as thicker and heavier-duty chrome lining. The Colt will come with a carry handle, A2 pistol grip, and Colt M4 stock while the Noveske comes with a Troy rear sight, Tango Down pistol grip, and Vltor stock. These items are essentially a wash as genuine Colt parts can fetch a premium and be sold on the used market to fund the other aftermarket parts that come with the N4. Basically what you save in this regard is time and hassle. Additionally, the N4 can be had with Magpul products in place of the TD and Vltor if you so choose (there may be a bit of a premium involved however). The midlength gas system of the N4 gives you a lighter recoil pulse, less wear on the internal parts, and the possibility of more railed real-estate should one choose to go that route but maintain the stock FSB.

So why not choose the N4 Light Recce Low-Profile 16" for $1975 or the N4 Light Recce Basic with VIS for $2105? Mostly because if you're a first-time buyer you may not know what rail you want, if you want one at all. I think it's more important for a first-time buyer to get a good, solid, basic, functional rifle and get out there and shoot it before we get too carried away with bells and whistles. If you decide you want a light there are other ways to attach it in the short term and there are alternate sling-mounting possibilities to work around not having the free-float rail. If, however, you do know that you want a rail then the SWS unit that comes with the Low-Profile is more than serviceable. I would put forth the one caveat that the QD bushbutton swivels built in to the rail are NOT rotation limited. This is a bigger deal for some than for others, but buyers should be aware of it. If Noveske/SWS were to add that feature I would certainly be much happier my self. I would also opt for the Vltor Emod stock upgrade for now, and the Magpul UBR when it becomes available.

So why not one of the 14.5" barreled versions like the N4 Light Carbine, Basic for $1,375, or the N4 Light Carbine, Low Profile for $1,895, or the N4 Light Carbine, Low Profile, with VIS for $2,104, or the N4 Light Carbine, Basic, with VIS for $1,844? The biggest reason is limitations. by choosing one of the 14.5" models you are forced to choose between permanently attaching the muzzle device or having the complete rifle registered as an SBR (which, as I understand it, Noveske is willing to help with which is a very nice feature and which keeps you from having to engrave your information on the receiver). In permanently attaching the muzzle device you limit your options as to rails and other accessories. Yes, the device can be removed by a competent 'smith and things can be changed out, but I'm not a fan of any modification that requires me to send the rifle or upper out to reverse or rectify. Registering the rifle as an SBR is certainly feasible but many people feel that spending the extra $200 tax to do so isn't worth it to only save 1.5" of barrel length.

Obviously if you are a more experienced AR owner/shooter then you may know for certain what rails and accessories you like, in which case permanently attaching the muzzle device may not be such a big issue. And, even if you just go with the Noveske/SWS rail, you could certainly do a whole hell of a lot worse. For this reason, I think that buying the 14.5" would make a GREAT second AR to complement and supplement the 16" Recce version.

Which brings us to progression. I generally tell people to pick up an N4 Recce and stick an Aimpoint M4S in a Larue mount for $702 on top of it. I haven't gotten to run the new "S" version of the optic yet but it does appear to put the control knob in a more user-friendly location. If you feel that you need magnification then add a Aimpoint 3x Magnifier in Larue pivot mount. This combo, with or without the magnifier, will more than serve virtually any user for virtually any endeavor. If cost is an issue, the Aimpoint C3 can be found in package deals with Larue and ADM mounts for $450+/-. The C3 gives up battery life, waterproof depth, night vision settings, and doesn't have the improved switching of the M4 but is more than adequate for almost all comers and offers up $250 in savings.

When the time comes that you want a second AR, and you have your rail opinions sorted out, I would go with the N4 Light Carbine, Low Profile for $1,895 (assuming you like the SWS rail). I would choose to have the AAC M42008 51 tooth 3-prong flash suppressor permanently attached. This will allow you to attach the excellent Advanced Armament M42000 sound suppressor to the firearm if you so choose. I would opt for the Emod version of the Vltor stock on the 14.5" and I would move the Aimpoint M4 to this rifle. I would then add either a 1-4x variable optic or a Compact ACOG in 3x to the 16" gun and relegate it for longer-range use while the 14.5" would become my "general purpose" rifle.

Finally, hopefully, Noveske will eventually be coming out with a 10.5" version of their N4 Carbine. While it doesn't exist now, I'm holding out hope. When (if?) this barrel length surfaces I would opt for a 9" SWS rail and the same AAC flash hider mount as well as go ahead and pick up the M42008 at this time with the intention of running the 10.5" suppressed the majority of the time. I would opt for the Magpul CTR stock on the short gun as well, and top it off with an Aimpoint T-1 in Larue mount for $640. The H-1 would serve just as well and should save approximately $100.

I would venture to say that with these three rifles, set up this way, one would be sufficiently outfitted for whatever manner of class/match/situation one could find oneself in.


At least until the Masada/ACR comes out!

[rob_s]

Obviously, all of the above is, or can be, very expensive. The very first step of the N4 Light Recce Basic 16" is $1,425 and then I tell you to add the Aimpoint for $700 more. And that doesn't even get you extra mags, ammo, a light, a sling, etc! With the above recommendation you could be out $3k real damn quick before you ever pull the trigger! So what to do on a budget?

I've been steering a whole slew of people towards the S&W M&P15. I'm not sold on the "T" models that come with the rails, but the M&P15 with carry handle (that can be cut down into a fixed BUIS for free), or the M&P15A that comes with the excellent Troy flip-up rear BUIS, can generally be found on www.gunsamerica.com for between $900 and $1,000. What you're giving up by saving that $400-$500 vs. the Noveske is the barrel, first and foremost. There are other differences, but the barrel is the big one. The S&W is an M4 profile (skinny under the handguards, notch in front of FSB for grenade launcher mount, etc.) which may not be the most practical for all users but is certainly serviceable. The S&W barrel also isn't made of the same quality steel as the Noveske, doesn't have the same chrome lining (although it is chrome lined), and has a standard carbine-length gas system vs. the mid-length of the Noveske Recce N4. The Noveske is also 1:7 rifling vs. the 1:9 of the S&W.

Add to that basic S&W M&P15 and Aimpoint C3 in a Larue or ADM mount for $450, and you have yourself one hell of a functional rifle for $1500.

The other thing that the S&W has going for it is that it can be found at almost any gun shop that stocks black rifles, and can certainly be found at any Gun Show. You may pay more to a local dealer, but for some people that is worth not having to deal with the hassle of mail order firearms and the local dealer transfer costs.

[jmart]

Nothing wrong with this, but I don't know what this offers over something like a Denny's Operator build. You could probablys ave a couple hundred going that route. You give up the extra thick chrome lining, but I'm not sure it's worth that much extra.

[rob_s]

Finally are the new up-and-comers in the AR market. Companies like ADS (especially when purchased from G&R Tactical) are offering many of the most desirable features for under $900.

The new Charles Daly is also looking to be a very promising player in the AR market and should be offering virtually all of the features that most users find desirable. As many gun shops carry Daly handguns it should be only a matter of time before their new ARs are found on shelves all over the country.

[rob_s]

Originally Posted by jmart

Nothing wrong with this, but I don't know what this offers over something like a Denny's Operator build. You could probablys ave a couple hundred going that route. You give up the extra thick chrome lining, but I'm not sure it's worth that much extra.

Which is, of course, your opinion.

I would pick the Noveske every single time.

I don't see complete guns anywhere on Denny's Site.

[Yojimbo]

Does anyone know how much a N4 Recce upper like the one pictured above would cost?

[rob_s]

Originally Posted by Yojimbo

Does anyone know how much a N4 Recce upper like the one pictured above would cost?

N4 Light Recce Basic 16" Upper? $915

[austinN4]

Rob, thank you for your post. As a first time buyer, I really wanted a Noveske, but couldn't justify the price to myself as a casual shooter. This internal argument also applies to the Ferrari I want and the Ford I drive.

I ended up with a M&P15A and your post makes me feel better about my choice; although, I felt pretty darned good anyway since I got it at a local distributor for $775 including sales tax and after the rebate. The difference in price between it and a N4 will go into an optic, ammo, mags, and a few change outs like the stock, grip and handguard.

[jmart]

Originally Posted by rob_s

Which is, of course, your opinion.

I would pick the Noveske every single time.

I don't see complete guns anywhere on Denny's Site.

Agreed. But what what really is a complete gun? It's just a compilation of parts, and Denny does exactly what Noveske does, he assembles parts from other mfg's. Denny can build you whatever you want, you order a la carte and he charges you for parts + assembly.

Noveske, I'm assuming, chambers his barrels then sends them out to get chromed, but of that I'm not entirely sure. Are you aware of anything else Noveske manufactures? I thought his uppers and lower receivers were sourced outside, his BCGs are sourced outside, etc. I guess he makes his own gas blocks. Anything else?

Denny's Operators are sourced from Mike Rock. I don't think Denny does any chamber work. I could be wrong.

Not knocking Noveske in the slightest -- he builds great stuff. Like most things in life, there are so many varaiables that what may be best for someone isn't for someone else.

[rob_s]

If you get away from the complete gun argument then you open yourself up to all sorts of mayhem and foolishness, and frankly as a first-time buyer I'd always steer someone towards a complete gun.

What would a GTS complete Operator build cost as compared to, but identically accessorized as, a N4 Recce Basic?

ETA, quick breakdown of parts alone (figure Denny eats his labor to make the markup on the parts)

Lower $150
LPK $70
Grip $40
Extension $45
Stock $100
Upper $100
Barrel $350 (GTS Operator Barrel)
BCG $130
BUIS $140
Handguard $40
CH $20
FH $50

$1,235

Figure $200 FET for the complete firearm and you're neck and neck.

[Ventura]

I just purchased the N4 Light Recce Basic based on a week of reading this informative forum. Now I see this thread and it's nice to see someone else with more experience in the subject validating the reasons why I picked the Noveske N4 Light Recce Basic.

[dBA]

Does anyone know if Noveske sells complete lower receivers?

[N4LtRecce]

Picked up a low profile Recce as my first AR recently. I'm very pleased with the weapon and would recommend it to anybody looking for a quality, accurate, reliable rifle.

[rob_s]

Originally Posted by dBA

Does anyone know if Noveske sells complete lower receivers?

They aren't listed on their site. I was trying to pick up one or two stripped lowers from Grant but he ran out. I'm on the list for when then come in. I'm hoping they surface about the same time as the Geissele trigger as I think it would make a fine combination.

[rhino]

Well, now I want one too!

[The Archangel]

Rob,

Thanks for taking the time to write up such a detailed post to help other forum members. I only have one question on your comment about the Aimpoint M4... why did you choose to recommend this optic, over the T1/LT? I keep going back and forth between the two myself, but I lean more towards the T1/LT.

[charger02]

So how do LMT's rifles compare, since they seem to have a pretty good rep and you can spend far less than on an N4.

[rob_s]

Originally Posted by The Archangel

Rob,

Thanks for taking the time to write up such a detailed post to help other forum members. I only have one question on your comment about the Aimpoint M4... why did you choose to recommend this optic, over the T1/LT? I keep going back and forth between the two myself, but I lean more towards the T1/LT.

A couple of reasons.

If you look at the Aimpoint Comparison Chart thread you can see the differences in the optics at a glance.

First is battery size and battery life. I love the fact that the M4 takes the standard AA. It also stretches that battery to almost twice the life of the T-1. Yes, even 44k hours is an insanely long amount of time, but should the battery itself fail for any reason I like that the M4 takes such a common size.

Second is the MOA. I think that for a rifle with a longer effective range, and one that may potentially get used with a magnifier, the 2 MOA is a better option.

Finally, and this info isn't on the chart but really should be, is tube diameter. The larger tube is simply more forgiving of a wider range of head positions.

Ordinarily I'm all about weight savings, but I personally find that the above makes the added weight of the M4 worthwhile on a larger gun. Note that I did mention I would use the T-1 on an SBR, and I think the Micros really shine (other than for use on low sight axis guns) when weight savings and low profile are more readily noticed.

[rob_s]

Originally Posted by charger02

So how do LMT's rifles compare, since they seem to have a pretty good rep and you can spend far less than on an N4.

How much is "far less"?

A complete LMT M4 will run you [rl=http://www.gandrtactical.com/cgi-bin/commerce.cgi?preadd=action&key=HGSTD16]$1250[/url] and it doesn't come with any BUIS. Add in the Troy that the Noveske comes with and it's a $1375 rifle. All of a sudden the Noveske is only a $50 premium, and I personally believe the mid-length gas system and improved barrel steel & chrome lining to be worth far more than $50.

[mudrock]

Originally Posted by rob_s

If you get away from the complete gun argument then you open yourself up to all sorts of mayhem and foolishness....

Rob, thanks for offering your thoughts and especially thanks for the above comment!

Buying a complete rifle is not an option in my state. I've invested quite a bit of time trying to avoid buying a given item multiple times until I get it right. Not quite ready just yet though....

Your thoughts on "What about the next one?" are appreciated. (There are two stripped lowers with consecutive SNs in my safe.) Is there really enough functional difference between a 14.5 and 16 to make it worth having one of each? Would I be losing out much by setting up 2 16s with say a Magpul CTR and Aimpoint Micro on one and an ACOG x3 and EMOD on the other?

I'm thinking the fun factor would be higher to have two different barrel lengths (and I really like the looks of 14.5 middies) but my practical side says there ain't that much difference between them and it's better to just double up.