Anti carrier tilt buffer assemblies are available.

[Seth Harness]

My patent attorney finally told me it was okay to post publically. Good thing cuz I was getting anxious. So here are some pics of the part and the cocept of the design.

I was getting tired of seeing this inside my buffer tube, signs of tilt that is. Granted its not real bad yet but I wasnt about to let it go like this.



I have this problem, I have to mess with everything. If its not right I have to fix it, I dont know what its called but it keeps me awake almost every night. This was one of those ideas. Two sleepless night later, this was the product.

Comparison of stock buffer and ACT buffer assembly.






I have a ton of pics from me making this but Im not going to get into all of that again, I'll just show you the pics of the part after I machined them. I am using buffer tech gray buffers to hold in the tungsten and steel weights. I was also thinking of having them hard coat anodized, no dye just straight anodized. The thread I had planned was huge, maybe this time I can make this a KISS thread and still get the point across.

Heres a pic of the weight tube.



The way it works is the indexing nipple on the face of the buffer assembly fits into the hole in the back of the carrier, when the tilt tries to occur the carrier bares its downward pressure to the indexing nipple on the buffer assembly. The shoulder just behind the face of the buffer is enlarged to fit in the buffer tube with just enough clearance to fit with little wobble. So the downward pressure is applied to the floor of the buffer tube. With a dab of oil in the buffer tube it works great for me, though oil is not necessary for function, it will cut down on any adverse wear if there is any. I have about 80 rounds on one and the problem of carrier tilt is fixed.






So there it is, thats my idea for fixing carrier tilt as a drop in design. The only spec. needed is the hole in the back of the carrier. The one draw back to the design is, to pivot the the upper on the front pin you have to remove the upper completely, lift the upper high enough that the indexing nipple dosnt interfere with the back of the carrier then reinsert your front pin. To drop the upper back down you dont have take them apart again, you just bring the upper down on top of the ACT buffer, reach in with your finger and give it a little push back and the upper will drop into place. To make my upper pivot from my lower it takes an extra 4 seconds. To close them back together it takes me an extra 2 seconds. Not a big deal to me, definitely a fare trade for the problem it fixes as far as Im concern.


Thanks,
Seth H.

[Razorhunter]

This is very interesting. Somehow I knew you were working on a product or two!
I wish I still had my brand new 1980 SouthBend 13" lathe. Boy do I ever regret selling that machine.
Anyhow Seth, I am assuming this is primarily geared towards gas piston systems.

I have been doing limited research on this issue, especially since the LMT gas piston rifle is due out soon. (I hope)
I spoke with LMT about carrier tilt, and they said it was definitely an issue they addressed, and they were confident that they had a solution built into their piston system. Of course, they didn't get into details.
I have only seen one other piston gun (the Colt Advanced LE Carbine), which addressed this issue. Of course, they used "skis" on their proprietary Carrier, which supposedly cures, or at least helps with the problem.
I'd like to know if the Colt "Skis" actually work???


Also, I'd like to know if carrier tilt is a problem with ALL piston guns? How about the 416? What did Hk do to address this issue?
Finally, what exactly causes carrier tilt? I mean, If you think about it, IF an Op-Rod can cause a carrier to tilt, why can't THOUSANDS of PSI of gas hitting the carrier key also cause carrier tilt, in a DI system?
I just always wondered about that?

[markm]

Doesn't this make assembly a pain in the chachkas?

Makes me wonder about the Colt HALF CIRCLE carriers. Those carriers wouldn't be able to do the damage that a full circle apparently does.

[Razorhunter]

Interesting concept on the Colt half circle carriers.

[Seth Harness]

Originally Posted by demigod

Doesn't this make assembly a pain in the chachkas?

Makes me wonder about the Colt HALF CIRCLE carriers. Those carriers wouldn't be able to do the damage that a full circle apparently does.

I agree, but with nothing to stop the downward tilt it would just create more adverse wear inside the upper on the bearing surfaces, having only a half circle allows for the system to travel down that much farther. The nice thing about this system is its drop-in. If someone wants to grind a porsion out of the bottom of their carrier, the system would pivot freely on the front pin. Like I said above, to make your rifle halves pivot freely from each other it takes an extra 4 seconds. Removing both front and rear pins seperating them and reinserting your front pin, your halves will pivot like normal. To reinstall, just set the carrier down on the indexing nipple, reach in with your finger and push it back and upper will drop down into place. It does take a tad longer but not so long its not worth the fix, IMHO.

Thanks for your reply and iterest.
Seth H.

[Seth Harness]

Originally Posted by Paul Cataldo

This is very interesting. Somehow I knew you were working on a product or two!

HAHA! I cant help it man, I cant turn my brain off it just keeps going, what really sucks is it keeps me awake at night. I have a lot more ideas, I just dont have the time to execute them. All in do time.

Thanks for your reply and interest.
Seth H.

[markm]

That would be an idea. A notched out bottom half of the back of the carrier rather than the half circle notion. Then you could close the receivers just like normal.

[Seth Harness]

Originally Posted by demigod

That would be an idea. A notched out bottom half of the back of the carrier rather than the half circle notion. Then you could close the receivers just like normal.

Yep, I wondered if thats something people should do themselves or if I should. I could I guess, its just more stuff to send through the mail, if that wouldnt bother anybody.
Its not like this has to be done for this to work, it would just save you a few seconds in the take down time.

Thanks,
Seth H.

[AnimalMother556]

Originally Posted by demigod

That would be an idea. A notched out bottom half of the back of the carrier rather than the half circle notion. Then you could close the receivers just like normal.

Wouldn't that negate the use of an M-16 carrier that some people are so found of for its additional weight? Not talkin' smack, just sayin.

[Seth Harness]

Originally Posted by AnimalMother556

Wouldn't that negate the use of an M-16 carrier that some people are so found of for its additional weight? Not talkin' smack, just sayin.

I would imagine if one missed the weight one could just replace one of the steel weights in their buffer with a tungsten weight, which would be more weight than you'd be removing. The amount of weight taken away would be so minute I dont believe it would be missed. The size of vacancy at the bottom back of the carrier needed would be measured in grams. I dont think it would be an issue. I have been wrong before though.

Thanks,
Seth H.

[markm]

Originally Posted by AnimalMother556

Wouldn't that negate the use of an M-16 carrier that some people are so found of for its additional weight? Not talkin' smack, just sayin.

Not at all. The weight diff between carrier styles is completely negligible compared to the weight spreads between buffer weights.

[RD62]

If you machined the "nipple" as more of a rounded cone shape, i.e. with a taper to the sides and a domed end, would it retain its full anit-tilt properites AND allow for easier dissasembly?


Like a very large detent?


Just wondering aloud...


-RD62

[Seth Harness]

Originally Posted by RD62

If you machined the "nipple" as more of a rounded cone shape, i.e. with a taper to the sides and a domed end, would it retain its full anit-tilt properites AND allow for easier dissasembly?


Like a very large detent?


Just wondering aloud...


-RD62

I went against that idea because in the tilt action, along with rearward movement, theres is a "shear" movement (the tilt downward). I saw that as being somewhat synonymous to the action of hinging the upper from the lower (a shear movement between carrier and buffer). I thought it best to have a full square shoulder for the carrier to bear on.

I did not try it, I just ruled it out in the design process.

Thanks for your reply,
Seth H.

[m4fun]

This would be great on pistons - when available?

[Seth Harness]

Originally Posted by m4fun

This would be great on pistons - when available?

Im running one of these buffers with an Ares defense/Bushmaster piston conversion kit and it does work great on pistons.

It'll be a few weeks or more before available. I've just inquired about setting up a web site for this and other parts. Thats where most of my marketing will take place, hopefully. I have to do something for marketing, I cant do it in this thread unless Im a dealer. I'll make it known when its available without breaking the rules.

Thanks for your interest,
Seth H.

[Seth Harness]

Originally Posted by Paul Cataldo

Also, I'd like to know if carrier tilt is a problem with ALL piston guns? How about the 416? What did Hk do to address this issue?
Finally, what exactly causes carrier tilt? I mean, If you think about it, IF an Op-Rod can cause a carrier to tilt, why can't THOUSANDS of PSI of gas hitting the carrier key also cause carrier tilt, in a DI system?
I just always wondered about that?

I would almost bet any or all piston uppers have this issue, in the AR platform. H&K and LWRC both I believe have a bulbous end on the back of their carriers that is just slightly smaller than the receiver extention, when the back of the carrier hits the floor of the tube it dosnt travel nearly as far.

I would imagine there is a little tilt in DI guns also, but with a push as opposed to an extremely hard punch, I think the tilt is negligible. That is not gospel by the way, just a common sence observation.

[JoshNC]

Originally Posted by Seth Harness

I agree, but with nothing to stop the downward tilt it would just create more adverse wear inside the upper on the bearing surfaces, having only a half circle allows for the system to travel down that much farther. The nice thing about this system is its drop-in. If someone wants to grind a porsion out of the bottom of their carrier, the system would pivot freely on the front pin. Like I said above, to make your rifle halves pivot freely from each other it takes an extra 4 seconds. Removing both front and rear pins seperating them and reinserting your front pin, your halves will pivot like normal. To reinstall, just set the carrier down on the indexing nipple, reach in with your finger and push it back and upper will drop down into place. It does take a tad longer but not so long its not worth the fix, IMHO.

Thanks for your reply and iterest.
Seth H.

Not only that, but there must be an adverse effect of carrier tilt on the bolt itself. That moment arm is creating uneven stress/loading of the bolt's locking lugs and in theory could cause a higher incidence of catastrophic bolt/bolt lug failure.

Glad to see you are able to post this freely now Seth. I look forward to seeing this product's progress.

[Seth Harness]

Originally Posted by JoshNC

Not only that, but there must be an adverse effect of carrier tilt on the bolt itself. That moment arm is creating uneven stress/loading of the bolt's locking lugs and in theory could cause a higher incidence of catastrophic bolt/bolt lug failure.

Glad to see you are able to post this freely now Seth. I look forward to seeing this product's progress.

Agreed, good point. Whats more is ares recommends you remove your gas rings from the bolt. When I did so, my bolt moved much more freely in the carrier and thus I would imagine giving way to the potential of adverse movement. All the more proof that carrier tilt IS NOT a negligible condition.

Josh thanks, you've been extremely helpfull, I look forward to seeing its progression also.

[ADC]

What I found out when I built my first prototype piston upper is that it was eating up the buffer tube and the rear inside of the upper.
In a DI upper the rear of the carrier is suspended in the center of the upper bore, held in place part by the slight pressure of the buffer via the spring, when it fires the carrier is pushed straight to the rear from the center of the carrier.
In the piston carrier, the piston pushes at the very top of the solid key making the carrier tilt and move from its center position in the rear towards the bottom of the receiver bore/buffer tube causing wear.
When I added pads to the rear of my carrier it allowed the pads to sit on the bottom of the receiver bore, therefore not allowing the carrier to tilt and hit the upper bore/receiver tube, it was already making contact, so it just goes straight back, no battering.........................................AD

[Seth Harness]

Originally Posted by ADC

What I found out when I built my first prototype piston upper is that it was eating up the buffer tube and the rear inside of the upper.
In a DI upper the rear of the carrier is suspended in the center of the upper bore, held in place part by the slight pressure of the buffer via the spring, when it fires the carrier is pushed straight to the rear from the center of the carrier.
In the piston carrier, the piston pushes at the very top of the solid key making the carrier tilt and move from its center position in the rear towards the bottom of the receiver bore/buffer tube causing wear.
When I added pads to the rear of my carrier it allowed the pads to sit on the bottom of the receiver bore, therefore not allowing the carrier to tilt and hit the upper bore/receiver tube, it was already making contact, so it just goes straight back, no battering.........................................AD

I have been following the thread on your new upper. I found it very interesting so THANK YOU for commenting here it is appreciated.

I had many ideas for curing tilt for people by modifying the carrier and/or the extension itself. I wanted to go that route but the possibility of ruining peoples carriers somewhere in the annealing, machining and rehardening processes kept me from doing so. This being a drop-in part gets rid of the potential for ruining carriers, but machining carriers from the ground up... Making integral pads on the bottom rear makes perfect sense.

The only wear I experienced was in the extension just behind the buffer retainer pin and the unknown/unseen wear in the upper on the bearing surfaces, I found this unexceptable. In this system the nipple on the head of the buffer fits tight in the back of the carrier, zero wobble. The large shoulder just behind the nipple fits with little room to spare inside the extension. Thus keeping the rear of the carrier centered in the extension through the recoil and battery process. No tilt, beauty!

Thanks again,
Seth H.