Intermediate length gas system

[Voodoochild]

Out of curiosity what exactly is intermediate? Is that another term for Mid-length? Was looking at Noveske 18" Barrel for a MK12ish build. And was curious as to the exact meaning of intermediate.

[rob_s]

AFAIK just another term for "midlength". It's probably actually a better term.

[Failure2Stop]

Just going off of the Noveske web-site here, but the 14.5 and 16.1 are listed as mid-length, whereas the 18 is listed as intermediate, which seems to indicate that the two are different. The pics also seem to indicate that the gas block position on the intermediate maintains about 6" of barrel forward of the block.

This is pure speculation on my part though.

ETA- From Noveske's web-site:

Since the development of the 18" SPR barrel, there has not been a proper gas port placement to work with the desirable barrel length. Now there is a perfect combination, introducing the "Intermediate Length" gas system. Developed by Vltor Weapon Systems, and perfected by Noveske Rifleworks, the intermediate length gas system offers the ideal gas port placement, providing maximum accuracy and reliability. Overall, the intermediate length gas system (1.5" shorter then a rifle length) was developed from feedback from end users and industry professionals. Accuracy and reliability are the best characteristics of the intermediate length gas system.

[Voodoochild]

So it's not a middy and not a rifle length. That is interesting to say the least now I wonder would a DD 9 lite rail or a DD 12 lite rail do the trick?

[Bob Reed]

Hello,

The intermediate is a gas system of it's own, and it's listed in the 5 different lengths of replacement gas tubes that he sells. http://noveskerifleworks.com/cgi-bin...play.cgi?cat=9

[Robb Jensen]

It's gas system length between midlength and rifle length, ideal for 18" barrels. IIRC it was designed by VLTOR.

[militarymoron]

gotm4 is correct - the intermediate length system is longer than a midlength, and shorter than a rifle length system. It's actually 1.5" shorter than a rifle length system and utilizes an intermediate length gas tube. This enables the gas block to be protected just inside a rifle-length rail.

eric at vltor thought it up, and had a two vltor-marked sample barrels made up with the intermediate system. i have one of them and featured it as part of my DD lite 12.0 build writeup back in october of '06 (it's the bottom paragraph):
http://www.militarymorons.com/weapons/ar.uppers.html#dd

vltor was planning on offering it last year, but got too busy. i'm not sure where the project stands - i had forgotten about it.

updated to add:
just spoke to eric at vltor - the project continued/materialized as the noveske SPR barrel. from noveske's website:
"Since the development of the 18" SPR barrel, there has not been a proper gas port placement to work with the desirable barrel length. Now there is a perfect combination, introducing the "Intermediate Length" gas system. Developed by Vltor Weapon Systems, and perfected by Noveske Rifleworks, the intermediate length gas system offers the ideal gas port placement, providing maximum accuracy and reliability. Overall, the intermediate length gas system (1.5" shorter then a rifle length) was developed from feedback from end users and industry professionals. Accuracy and reliability are the best characteristics of the intermediate length gas system."

[armakraut]

They ought to make a few barrels in .308.

[snakedoctor]

Is anyone here running a 16" Intermediate Length Rifle.

[sinlessorrow]

HOLY NECRO!!!

that said the 16" intermediate would not make sense, intermediate is for 18" barrels, middy is made for 16" barrels

[bp7178]

Originally Posted by sinlessorrow

HOLY NECRO!!!

that said the 16" intermediate would not make sense, intermediate is for 18" barrels, middy is made for 16" barrels

Why wouldn't it?

I had a custom Noveske 16" barrel with an intermediate length gas system. Kind of a similar combination as running a 14.5" with a mid.

The Noveske/Vltor intermediate length gas system places the gas port 11.5" from the standing face of the receiver. This is within a fraction of an inch of the KAC gas system on the SR15, which uses a 16" barrel. The KAC intermediate system uses a SR25 gas tube.

This has been addressed in more current threads on this site.

[snakedoctor]

Originally Posted by sinlessorrow

HOLY NECRO!!!

that said the 16" intermediate would not make sense, intermediate is for 18" barrels, middy is made for 16" barrels

I'll just leave this here (sorry the pics don't show up):

"Smooth" is good.

When you get to shoot as many different ar' configurations as paul and i do, the difference the little things make become more easily noticed and appreciated. We like our custom uppers to run "smoothly". It is a difficult quality to quantify. See new AR' guy's critique of our 6.8 SPC upper several years ago on the uppers, lowers, etc., forum, where he comments at some length on this quality in our winning entry.

Another noteworthy example regarding this "smooth" running quality came from a Special Forces weapons guy who took one of our 10.5" guns on deployment to the rock box. He said in training up with the new weapon, he had to recalibrate his "feel" for the platform. In his words, "it feels like the bolt is closing on an empty chamber every time, when in fact it is feeding properly." He also reported confirmed hits on some "man-size" targets at 600 yd with it. Yes, it was a sub-moa 10.5". Maybe coincidental - but probably not.

A gun that runs more smoothly implies one that runs more reliably, more consistently, and with with better accuracy. Also, a shooter can run a smooth gun faster than one that has the typical "choppy" quality to it.

We place great emphasis on getting the best quality components built to the highest tolerances in our custom builds. This means "straighter" parts, producing less friction. Another critical aspect of a weapon's "smooth" qualities are optimum porting for the gas system, recoil spring, and buffer weight, as well as proper lubrication. The ionbond diamondblack coating on the bolt carrier group components that mstn pioneered also is a big contributor to this.

It is accepted as fact at this point in time that a mid-length gas system in a 14.5" to 16" barrel produces a smoother felt recoil pulse, less wear and tear on the weapon, as well as enhanced reliability than the original format carbine length gas system. Sound suppressor usage tends to greatly exacerbate these differences, too. As a result, we would never consider using a carbine length gas system in a custom 16" build. Mid-length has been the proven way to go in the 16" for some time now.

When the new Knight's Armament SR15 E3 hit the streets, I was most impressed with what an outstanding job they did in balancing the recoil spring and buffer with the gas pulse in their longer than standard mid-length gas system. This rifle is as smooth running as you can find, even at its ultra-light weight, and represents a tremendous value for the money. Wearing just a generic A2 flash hider, it produces less apparent recoil than some uppers with compensators.

You'll note that the KAC SR15 E3 utilizes Knight's own peculiar mid-length gas system, longer than the "industry standard" mid-length. This I felt was a large part of their success. But they wanted $39 each for this gas tube ...

... So we turned to another pair of industry innovators, Noveske and Vltor, who came up with their own "intermediate" length gas system for 18" SPR use, within a fraction of an inch of that used by Knight's. It is #3 in the below photos:


I tried this intermediate length gas system in 18" builds and felt that it offered an actual decrease in the qualities we were after. It felt "choppy" compared to the rifle elngth gas system in an 18" build. But what about in a 16" upper?



Two identical uppers were built up with each of the Noveske barrels shown, one with the traditional mid-length gas system, and one with the new intermediate length. Matching Nightforce scopes were installed, and a side by side test was performed. Both shot equally well (0.60 moa), but the new gas system produced a "smoother" weapon with less apparent recoil.

We are so impressed with this new intermediate length gas system in the 16" that we're going to make it a part of our future custom offerings. We're even going to be able to step down another size on the gas port.

Good shooting,

Wes Grant
MSTN

[sinlessorrow]

pics did not work but thanks for the great info Wes, you know your stuff so I'm inclined to believe you.

[lifebreath]

I'd love a 16" Noveske with an intermediate system. As stated, it's almost the same as the KAC SR-15 gas system. My SR-15 is the smoothest shooting AR I own, including a 14.5" BCM middy and a Noveske 16" middy. It's hard to describe how pleasurable the SR-15 is to shoot!

[mtdawg169]

Originally Posted by sinlessorrow

HOLY NECRO!!!

that said the 16" intermediate would not make sense, intermediate is for 18" barrels, middy is made for 16" barrels

Intermediate actually works very well, Noveske & KAC have proven that. It seems to me that the 14.5" midlength trend may even be a result of the development of the intermediate gas system. Same idea, different execution using the more readily available midlength gas tube.

Sent from my DROID RAZR using Tapatalk 2

[TehLlama]

Originally Posted by lifebreath

I'd love a 16" Noveske with an intermediate system. As stated, it's almost the same as the KAC SR-15 gas system. My SR-15 is the smoothest shooting AR I own, including a 14.5" BCM middy and a Noveske 16" middy. It's hard to describe how pleasurable the SR-15 is to shoot!

The SR-15 is KAC taking an SR-25 gas tube off their stock shelves and running it - awesome idea.
The Noveske Intermediate is another combined project with VLTOR that is a touch shorter, but dimensionally similar to the other three standard gas tube lengths.

For a better idea, the MSTN FB photo page title 'intermediate' gives a good representation of this.

[BufordTJustice]

Wes from MSTN has a 17" Noveske Barrel with a rifle length gas system (One of Wes's personal guns) on his FB page. He says it shoots really smooth.

THAT setup is something I may be interested in....or a 16" with an intermediate length.

Obviously, with proper gas port sizing, these designs can work 100%. The question is how long will it take the market to catch-up. It took over 2 years for everybody else to catch up with BCM's wide-release of their 14.5" middy format carbine. I hope it won't take that long with this movement.

A 15" Troy TRX alpha rail or 15" Noveske NSR or KAC URX 3 (in 15" if they offer it) would be perfect on a 17" barrel with a rifle gas system. Something like an N4 contour barrel in that format could be a mean all-around setup. Very mean, indeed.

[mtdawg169]

Originally Posted by BufordTJustice

Wes from MSTN has a 17" Noveske Barrel with a rifle length gas system (One of Wes's personal guns) on his FB page. He says it shoots really smooth.

THAT setup is something I may be interested in....or a 16" with an intermediate length.

Obviously, with proper gas port sizing, these designs can work 100%. The question is how long will it take the market to catch-up. It took over 2 years for everybody else to catch up with BCM's wide-release of their 14.5" middy format carbine. I hope it won't take that long with this movement.

A 15" Troy TRX alpha rail or 15" Noveske NSR or KAC URX 3 (in 15" if they offer it) would be perfect on a 17" barrel with a rifle gas system. Something like an N4 contour barrel in that format could be a mean all-around setup. Very mean, indeed.

I also have one of the Noveske / MSTN 17" rifle gassed barrels. It is indeed, extremely smooth. It is a special contour cut by Noveske for MSTN. Mine was marked as "JLZ" on the packaging when I received it from Wes. I set mine up as an SPR with a URXIII.

Sent from my DROID RAZR using Tapatalk 2

[BufordTJustice]

Originally Posted by mtdawg169

I also have one of the Noveske / MSTN 17" rifle gassed barrels. It is indeed, extremely smooth. It is a special contour cut by Noveske for MSTN. Mine was marked as "JLZ" on the packaging when I received it from Wes. I set mine up as an SPR with a URXIII.

Sent from my DROID RAZR using Tapatalk 2

Vetty Nice!

Apparently, 'JLZ' stands for Just like Zak's as far as the contour is concerned.

Pix please.

[mtdawg169]

Originally Posted by BufordTJustice

Vetty Nice!

Apparently, 'JLZ' stands for Just like Zak's as far as the contour is concerned.

Pix please.

That's my understanding as well. Pics are around here somewhere in the custom build forum.