Recommendations for a .308 AR ?

[Littlelebowski]

I've shot DPMS 16" 308 and the LR308. Both were very impressive. I plan on buying a LR308 very shortly.

[longshot]

I'd like to see that report as I have not had any breakages whatsoever even with hot loads.

[Rana]

Originally Posted by longshot

I'd like to see that report as I have not had any breakages whatsoever even with hot loads.

How many rounds you at?

Again, I would like to see an "independent" study myself...

[DocGKR]

Unfortunately none of the current 7.62 mm AR's run reliably, including the AR10 and SR25/Mk11/M110.

It was reported that the very expensive, highly touted SR25K "Battle Rifles" purchased for SOF use did not prove particularly durable or reliable in combat conditions and were withdrawn for service rather quickly. Many folks who have deployed with SR25/Mk11/M110 have not had kind things to say about their durability. One well known SOTIC instructor has written the following:

"The first SRs had serious function problems and mag problems. They broke at the worse possible times and were not user friendly to fix once broken. The newer Mk11s are almost as bad but have a better rep function wise and the mag problem seems to have been fixed. The guys are shooting the crap out of the weapons and using it more as a battel rifle than a sniper rifle. The manual states that only 25 to 50 rounds should be fired form teh weapon per day. That is being violated badly and the weapons are paying for it. The SR was never designed to be a super precision sniper rifle and it is not. Even if Knight is now claiming the same in his SASS BS. I have seen too many not make it through our course and the ones that do require almost daily maintenance to continue. I have seen the SASS and I predict that they will start having trouble wiht the weapon as a sniper rifle within the year that it is first issued in mass. Say this time next year. The first to go will be the stock extension mechanism which is as flimsy a pice of crap that I have ever seen. As far as lost accuracy and range on the old versus new, none that I know of as the old had crappy range and accuracy and the longer barrel did not enhance already lousy. Sniper versus DM, one shots a priority target and the other bangs away at everyone, oh like a rifleman."

[Littlelebowski]

I can point you to a Marine that was very happy with his SR25 and it was reliable enough for the Battle of Fallujah which was reliable enough for him.

[Littlelebowski]

Read this

[SHIVAN]

I believe Rana, and DocGKR are speaking about sample sizes above one.

Rana is more likely speaking from the aspect of several weapons fielded in some branch of special warfare, and DocGKR is probably speaking from the benefit of having seen reports on topic covering multiple units and myriad weapons.

While singular success stories are much appreciated, please remember that we have some unique members on this forum with a very wide range of experience.

[Littlelebowski]

I do realize that. There's plenty of 8541s who've used the weapon over at LRI that all say the same thing. Perhaps they got a good batch....

[SHIVAN]

Originally Posted by Littlelebowski

I do realize that. There's plenty of 8541s who've used the weapon over at LRI that all say the same thing. Perhaps they got a good batch....

It could also be a matter of expectations, fire schedule, etc.

Many of the complaints I read about regarding the SR-25 (and other 308 AR's tested by DoD) involve the inability to fire more than X rounds every X minutes without having issues.

Which is fine while shooting it for groups on a bench or at the range, but not so hot while trying to suppress a horde of BG's precisely at distance.

I used to think it was BS too, as I can run my AR-10's pretty hard and not choke them up. However, the complaints and stories persist - from people at the very tip of the spear.

There's got to be something to it.

[Littlelebowski]

Yeah, I doubt they're lying also. I'll bring it up over at LRI. Kinda of curious as to see if they suffer from first shot stringing like 5.56 ARs do. You know, when the first shot is off of the rest of the group, cold bore or not? Our gunsmith attributes it to feeding issues.

[DocGKR]

Rana,

I am confused about your comment:

”I thought the 6.8 might have been the cartridge to bridge the gap but "reports from Crane" indicate bizarre parts breakage at relatively low (in relation to 5.56) round counts. I would like to see someone perform independent test on the 6.8 SPC-in relation to durability.”

I am not aware of Crane doing any extensive testing of 6.8 mm, as they have generally opposed 6.8 mm starting back in the 2002-2003 time frame. There were previously rumors about supposed 6.8 mm reliability issues back in 2005, however, these comments were found to be specious, per my comments here: http://www.10-8forums.com/ubbthreads...7&fpart=2&vc=1

During the independent terminal ballistic tests conducted by JSWB-IPT, FBI BRF, and the Marine Corps, no 6.8 mm parts failures occurred.

The most extensive 6.8 mm independent durability testing to date, was conducted by CTTSO/TSWG ( http://www.cttso.gov/) in 2007; in the 10,000’s of rounds fired by U.S. and allied SOF personnel, as well as Federal LE officers and agents for the MURG testing, NO 6.8 mm parts breakage was noted. See pages 18 & 19 of my NDIA briefing (http://www.dtic.mil/ndia/2008Intl/Roberts.pdf). This past July, CTTSO/TSWG, in conjunction with the FBI BRF and the Marine Corps, briefed Congressional representatives on the highly favorable results of the 6.8 mm MURG testing.

[longshot]

Originally Posted by Rana

How many rounds you at?

Again, I would like to see an "independent" study myself...

I am at about 3k and have shot commercial and combat loads as well as hot reloads that were hot enough that I had to back off dur to signs of pressure. I've dumped magazines, rapid fire and slow fire to get data on cold bore and hot barrels. No parts failure of any kind.

[Rana]

Originally Posted by longshot

I am at about 3k and have shot commercial and combat loads as well as hot reloads that were hot enough that I had to back off dur to signs of pressure. I've dumped magazines, rapid fire and slow fire to get data on cold bore and hot barrels. No parts failure of any kind.

3K isn't enough for a durability evaluation of any weapon system.

If or when "Crane" releases their findings it might be a step in the right direction as far as clarity goes. I myself don't have the full skinny on the 6.8 round tests conducted at Crane.

Again, I would like to see an "independent" test conducted with a round count comparable to that of the service life of existing 5.56 service rifles from the same platform (I.E. M4A1).

[DocGKR]

That is pretty much what the independent TSWG 6.8 mm MURG testing was all about...

[KevinB]

Someone Doc probably knows at Crane told me they had 2,500 bolt life on the 6.8 about 3.5 years ago. From the MURG stuff I saw - I would say sample size needs to be EXTENSIVELY increased.

For .308 AR I still beleive with my hand on my heart KAC makes the best system out there. However I do think that, that system could be improved upon, but its a Sniper/Spotter gun not a LMG

[DocGKR]

Since we first started testing them in mid-2002, we have never seen a 6.8 mm bolt break.

In 2005, Dave Dunlap of PRI wrote:

"We have three units tested at 8000 rounds each by an outside group (not under PRi control) and are under written agreement to furnish all repair parts. There have been no repairs or repair parts and they are still being tested. We also have unofficial knowledge of other test programs and the 6.8 has not seen the problems you are claiming."

At the same time, I wrote:

"In addition to the 3 weapons with 8000 plus rounds through them mentioned by Mr. Dunlap, I know of an organization that has test fired 100,00 rounds through thirty 6.8 mm carbines with no problems-that is an average of over 3000 rounds per weapon without any weapons damage or significant malfunctions. Another test was performed with a suppressed 6.8 mm firing 3000 rounds full-auto; no malfunctions or damage were noted. Another group has a 6.8 mm rifle with nearly 10,000 rounds through it and several that have around 5000 rounds fired through them, all going strong. We currently have five 6.8 mm weapons in our inventory-none have ever exhibited any failures."

MURG testing involved firing 30,000+ rounds without ANY parts breakage.

[ToeCutter]

Armalite AR-10, tried and true!

[Cesiumsponge]

For what it's worth, another DPMS LR-308 owner with no issues (24" non fluted, heavy-ass version). About 500 rounds of Federal GMM down the barrel with no failures. If you're strong enough and want to drag the match version LR-308 around all day and treat it like an M4, I'm pretty sure its going to seize and choke up on you. I'm not sure if the carbine ones are built with more clearance to operate in dirtier conditions.

Taking reality into account, the 308 ARs are never going to be issued and tested in similar quantities compared to the 5.56mm AR family, and they won't see similar round counts either and the resultant data to correct issues. Speaking from a probability standpoint, the 308 ARs aren't nearly as debugged as the 5.56.

Would anyone hazard a guess as to how many 5.56mm ARs are sold per every .308 AR? 25:1? 50:1? 100:1?

[Cagemonkey]

[quote=mario;232041]I'd like to get my hands on one but from what I've read most aren't dependable. Anyone here have hands on experience with one? Thanks in Advance![/QUOTE
I just purchased an AR10A4. Has M4 feed ramps and upgraded extractor spring. Haven't shot it yet, Armalite forgot to send carrying handle and front sight. I like the new generation magazine. Its an improvement on the modified M14 mags. I got some 20 rounders on the way from 44Mag.com. The weight of the rifle is reasonable since they now have a GI weight barrel. Also the barrel is chrome lined. The DPMS rifles aren't. If all goes well, I feel you should get all of the advantages of the M16/M4 weapons system with the benefit of .308/7.62. Due to the increased mass of the reciprocating parts the AR 10 should be as reliable if not superior to the M16/AR15. The original Armalite AR10's performed reliably.

[WallaS]

I have an AR10T that had the barrel shortened to 20" and refinished black by GAP. Ran perfect in the standard configuration. I attempted to install a collapsible stock with a buffer made by Slash from TOS and had some cycling issues, it appeared that the buffer was not fully retracted into the tube. I did remove a coil from the buffer spring and it appeared the buffer was now fully retracting into the stock, but I found a Magpul PRS at a great price and never took the AR10T back to the range with the shorter buffer spring. After reverting back to a standard length buffer system the rifle has been 100% reliable.

A good friend has a DMPS-308 and the only time I have been out with him (which was his first attempt at sighting in the rifle) every other round was a ftf. He thought it was due to the magazines and I have not followed up with him to see if he had it resolved.

I would definitely recommend Armalite and if you can afford it the KAC SR25.