ARs stored cocked n' locked?

7.62NATO · #1 12-06-08, 22:20

Most of our forum members are probably not military. Their main purpose for a M4 style weapon is defensive purposes. With that being said, what is the most effective way for a civilian to store their HD M4-style weapon and still have it remain accessible at a moments notice? God bless this great country, may she always remain the land of the free.

MBRMan · #2 12-06-08, 22:22

Full mag inserted, hammer down on an empty chamber.

MBR

Tomac · #3 12-06-08, 22:23

Unless I'm expecting imminent trouble, I keep mine in Condition 3 w/a loaded mag & the hammer down. All I need do is chamber a rd and I'm gtg.
Tomac

Veracity · #4 12-06-08, 23:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by MBRMan

Full mag inserted, hammer down on an empty chamber.

MBR

What he said.

toddackerman · #5 12-07-08, 01:47

Condition 1 just like a 1911 Semi Auto. Absolutely no negatives to having one in the tube with the safety on, and one less thing to think about when you need it NOW!

TangoChaser · #6 12-07-08, 02:35

Quote:

Condition 1 just like a 1911 Semi Auto. Absolutely no negatives to having one in the tube with the safety on, and one less thing to think about when you need it NOW!

Except if you accidentally bang the buttstock, it could slam fire as the bolt will release and slam forward. Thick primers prevent this but you never know. Saw this happen too many times with blanks in an M16. And that was with military hard primers.

If you live in a neighborhood that requires you keep a full loaded, cocked, and locked AR, you need to move. The time it takes to rack the bolt and chamber a round takes less time than it does to read this sentence.

If you store your AR in a safe, all this is moot as it takes time to get the safe open. Loaded mag on an empty chamber is the safest method to store the gun.

jgraham · #7 12-07-08, 02:39

I keep my AR's with a mag inserted but the carrier is locked open and the ejection doors are open so all I have to do is release the carrier and I am ready to go. I keep the ejection doors open so if my girlfriend needs to use one for some god forsaken reason she can easily see the status of the AR.

I'm not sure if this is a good idea or not! What do you guys think?

Parabellum9x19mm · #8 12-07-08, 02:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by toddackerman

Absolutely no negatives to having one in the tube with the safety on

i can think of a negative, kind of a big one too.

want to keep a weapon with a round in the chamber, do it with a weapon with a firing pin block.

my nightstand SIG always has a round in the chamber. my HD AR is kept "cruiser ready"

we keep having to go over this too.... ARs are not drop-safe

toddackerman · #9 12-07-08, 02:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by Parabellum9x19mm

i can think of a negative, kind of a big one too.

want to keep a weapon with a round in the chamber, do it with a weapon with a firing pin block.

my nightstand SIG always has a round in the chamber. my HD AR is kept "cruiser ready"

we keep having to go over this too.... ARs are not drop-safe

Firing pin blocks are not necessary when you are in control of your weapon. 1911's hadn't had them for years until the politicians made Colt do it on the series 80's. They're the only ones to do it because they're pussies!

AN AR is no good if you're not cocked and locked when the shit hits the fan. Period!!! Not enough time to remember to pull the charging handle.

Do you guys realize that from the time a BG knocks down your door, and you awake that it only takes 3 seconds for him to be in your bedroom??? And you still will be in a daze. Time is of the essnce. Worrying about a round going off because you dropped your gun shouldn't even figure into the warrior mind set.

Same goes for the 12GA. Shotty. 1 in the tube with a full mag.

Iraqgunz · #10 12-07-08, 02:56

Oh my.....here we go again. This has been discussed here before and I believe that thread ended up being locked. My personal preference is a loaded magazine, empty chamber, weapon on fire. Everyone is different and what they feel comfortable will vary.

Todd,

Your little 3 second rule is ridciulous and since no house or layout is alike doesn't hold water. In addition to any rifle or shotgun that is available my handgun is loocked and loaded and probably easier to use in a situation like you describe. YMMV.

toddackerman · #11 12-07-08, 02:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by TangoChaser

Except if you accidentally bang the buttstock, it could slam fire as the bolt will release and slam forward. Thick primers prevent this but you never know. Saw this happen too many times with blanks in an M16. And that was with military hard primers.

If you live in a neighborhood that requires you keep a full loaded, cocked, and locked AR, you need to move. The time it takes to rack the bolt and chamber a round takes less time than it does to read this sentence.

If you store your AR in a safe, all this is moot as it takes time to get the safe open. Loaded mag on an empty chamber is the safest method to store the gun.

Neighborhood has nothing to do with it. Look at Columbine, CO (where I live) and VA Tech. It's a matter of preparedness. Both the 1911 and AR were designed to be cocked and locked (Condition 1) or they wouldn't have an external safety. If you're going to adopt the weapon system, you might as well adopt it the way it was designed and stop being sheepish about it. And remeber...All guns are always loaded so treat them that way.

Iraqgunz · #12 12-07-08, 03:02

Todd,

The AR has a non-positive safety. Though you say it was designed to b e carried as you specify I reality that isn't the case. My military experience has schooled me in how the weapon is carried and used and it seems to work well.

I think that this thing is a dead issue and we can beat it to death just like the 9mm vs. .45 vs. .40 deabte.

Quote:

Originally Posted by toddackerman

Neighborhood has nothing to do with it. Look at Columbine, CO (where I live) and VA Tech. It's a matter of preparedness. Both the 1911 and AR were designed to be cocked and locked (Condition 1) or they wouldn't have an external safety. If you're going to adopt the weapon system, you might as well adopt it the way it was designed and stop being sheepish about it. And remeber...All guns are always loaded so treat them that way.

toddackerman · #13 12-07-08, 03:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by Iraqgunz

Todd,

The AR has a non-positive safety. Though you say it was designed to b e carried as you specify I reality that isn't the case. My military experience has schooled me in how the weapon is carried and used and it seems to work well.

I think that this thing is a dead issue and we can beat it to death just like the 9mm vs. .45 vs. .40 deabte.

Well...not to beat it to death...are you saying that a 1911 that also doesn't have a positive safety shouldn't be carried in condition one?

MisterWilson · #14 12-07-08, 03:14

Carried or stored?

ETA: Seriously, quit speaking in absolutes dude. In one corner we have (several) folks with EXPERIENCE in the proper & safe handling of firearms while in the other we have someone who sounds like they just migrated from Arf.

I could be wrong but I'm just saying...

Iraqgunz · #15 12-07-08, 03:15

Todd,

This thread was asking specifically about the AR not a 1911. I am also not a 1911 person though I do believe that some of them have firing pin blocks.

It is also completely different from carrying a 1911 in a holster that is condition 1. Primarily because the weapon is under your control when holstered. Anytime that I CCW my weapon is condition 1. I don't see the need for the same when in my house unless I know an "attack" is imminent. Just my opinion.

Quote:

Originally Posted by toddackerman

Well...not to beat it to death...are you saying that a 1911 that also doesn't have a positive safety shouldn't be carried in condition one?

Bushytale · #16 12-07-08, 03:15

Toddackerman, Col. Cooper is rolling over in his grave as I read this. Of course he would not be using the "poodle shooter" anyway.

toddackerman · #17 12-07-08, 11:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by MisterWilson

Carried or stored?

ETA: Seriously, quit speaking in absolutes dude. In one corner we have (several) folks with EXPERIENCE in the proper & safe handling of firearms while in the other we have someone who sounds like they just migrated from Arf.

I could be wrong but I'm just saying...

Ah yes...Mr. Wilson. I recall so many of your posts on ARFCOM.

Well I didn't just fall off the ARFcom truck, but that's not the issue. The issue is proper training in the deployment and storage of a weapon system.

The correct, and safe storage of any weapon that is not going to be relied on for immediate deployment is for that weapon to not have a Mag in the the well, and no round in the chamber with the hammer down, and locked up in an appropriate safe. This way all springs are resting, and the weapon can't be accessed by someone else.

On the other hand IMHO (and a host of experts would agree on this) is that if any weapon that might be picked up to be deployed as soon as possible should be in condition 1, and I don't care what weapon it is. Again, time is of the essence when you need it most.

My 1911 when not on my hip is on the kitchen counter in condition 1, and my M4 is next to my bed in condition 1 when I go to bed at night. Condition 2, and 3 offer no advantages over condition 1 if you are in control of your weapon. Dropping your AR or M4 shouldn't be part of the picture. That's why you have a sling on it, and yes you should deploy the sling even inside your home in case you need to transition to your secondary weapon, or for other reasons you need 2 hands to maneuver and not have to put down your carbine.

If I were to "Store" (not laid down somewhere) either of these, they would be totally unloaded with no mag in the well.

Regarding Col. Cooper (anyone here that personally knew him?) ...I think he would agree with me. Or at least that's what I learned from him in the early 80's. Clint Smith would probably agree with me as would Larry Vickers, Pat Rogers, Ken Hackathorn...but what do i know???

Regarding "Poodle Shooters"...I agree that they are not the first choice for defense, but they are the choice that will most probably be used due to the limitations of our society to not be able walk freely with your M4 slung on your shoulder. Pat Rogers once said "That the chances of a civilian ever using an M4 in a real life situation are slim to none."

"The pistol...know it well...carry it always". Col. Jeff Cooper

toddackerman · #18 12-07-08, 11:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by Iraqgunz

Todd,

This thread was asking specifically about the AR not a 1911. I am also not a 1911 person though I do believe that some of them have firing pin blocks.

It is also completely different from carrying a 1911 in a holster that is condition 1. Primarily because the weapon is under your control when holstered. Anytime that I CCW my weapon is condition 1. I don't see the need for the same when in my house unless I know an "attack" is imminent. Just my opinion.

Iraqgunz,

Just for the record, I am not arguing with you, but I do want to point out that statistically the first place that an attack is going to happen is IN YOUR HOUSE and there is no way to know if it's imminent. Sorry but it's true. The second place is in your car. Again, a fact. Next in the darkness of night on the street, and lastly in broad daylight on the street.

So, to my point...if a weapon system is not stored (unloaded and locked up) and is accessible, it should be at the ready in condition 1. This includes carbines that should be slung to avoid droppage....hence also under your control like a holstered 1911.

I'm just trying to help everyone stay alive hear, but to each his own. I just hope when that IF you should ever encounter that 3-5 seconds when your door gets kicked down and the BG is in your bedroom that you have your wits and motor skills about you enough to charge and shoot your weapon which requires a lot of mechanical skill compared to depressing the safety and firing. Another fact in my neighborhood of Douglas County, CO) ...the LEO's won't be there to help for 7 minutes....once notified

OK....I'm done. I have nothing else to offer. If nothing else, I hope this made some think a bit.

Peace everyone!

Iraqgunz · #19 12-07-08, 13:21

Todd,

Just a few things. I understand that I am susceptible to an attack in my house. As I stated earlier, I have a magazine in the weapon, empty chamber and weapon on fire. All that I would need to do is put a round in the chamber. In the meantime I still have two pistols that are both locked and loaded and equipped with lights.

Second. I doubt that someone will make it through my front door in 3-5 seconds, but I can only speak for mine not yours. It would also take them at least 5 seconds to get from the front door of my house into my bedroom.

I am fully aware of the vulnerabilities while traveling in my vehicle, at night and on the street. Which is why I carry my pistols in condition 1.

I have had my fair share of "encounters" so I think that I have done OK thus far.

Quote:

Originally Posted by toddackerman

Iraqgunz,

Just for the record, I am not arguing with you, but I do want to point out that statistically the first place that an attack is going to happen is IN YOUR HOUSE and there is no way to know if it's imminent. Sorry but it's true. The second place is in your car. Again, a fact. Next in the darkness of night on the street, and lastly in broad daylight on the street.

So, to my point...if a weapon system is not stored (unloaded and locked up) and is accessible, it should be at the ready in condition 1. This includes carbines that should be slung to avoid droppage....hence also under your control like a holstered 1911.

I'm just trying to help everyone stay alive hear, but to each his own. I just hope when that IF you should ever encounter that 3-5 seconds when your door gets kicked down and the BG is in your bedroom that you have your wits and motor skills about you enough to charge and shoot your weapon which requires a lot of mechanical skill compared to depressing the safety and firing. Another fact in my neighborhood of Douglas County, CO) ...the LEO's won't be there to help for 7 minutes....once notified

OK....I'm done. I have nothing else to offer. If nothing else, I hope this made some think a bit.

Peace everyone!

7.62NATO · #20 12-07-08, 13:35

Iraqgunz,

I'm on your page when it comes to storing the M4 for HD. If you don't mind me asking, what are the two sidearms you carry in condition 1?