What is the scoop on Hornady's new handgun ammo with the plastic in the hollow point.

[Alaskapopo]

This ammo looks interesting. I saw an add for it. It looks like it would help with clothing clogging the hollow point cavity and slowing and inhibiting expansion, which is a real concern for us here in Alaska.
Pat

[HowardCohodas]

Originally Posted by Alaskapopo

This ammo looks interesting. I saw an add for it. It looks like it would help with clothing clogging the hollow point cavity and slowing and inhibiting expansion, which is a real concern for us here in Alaska.
Pat

It is now my EDC in my LCP BUG.



Hornady Web Page: http://www.hornady.com/story.php?s=786

Spec Sheet: http://www.hornady.com/images/sell_s...al_defense.pdf

[ToddG]

From what I've gathered, it's very similar to the older XTP design: deeper penetration than competing brands but not as much expansion.

The .380 variant was supposedly engineered specifically around the LCP. I look forward to seeing some good terminal ballistics testing of that load from the short gun. In the meantime, I'm sticking to the Gold Dot.

[Zhukov]

For small calibers and BUGs, my general take is:

1) Good expansion
2) Deep penetration

Pick ONE of the above.

Brassfetcher.com had tested several .380 loads that seem to prove the above line of thinking, and the one that seemed to split the middle was (I hate to say it) the Hydra Shok. It had minimal expansion (a little of 0.4" if I remember) and adequate penetration of around 12" in gelatin.

The Hornady ammo seems to follow this same line of thinking. Minimal but reliable expansion and adequate penetration. This might make sense for small caliber rounds, but I can't see using this ammo in the larger calibers like 9mm or 38spl as there are much better choices.

[ETA] I guess they only list the .380, 9mm, and .38spl right now. So I would have to say that the only caliber I would consider this in is a .380 BUG like the LCP or P3AT.

[sff70]

Deep penetation with little expansion is more effective than max expansion with shallow penetration.

Expansion should not be the #1 priority.

[HowardCohodas]

Originally Posted by sff70

Deep penetation with little expansion is more effective than max expansion with shallow penetration.

Expansion should not be the #1 priority.

Then gamma rays are your ideal choice.

[sff70]

Originally Posted by HowardCohodas

Then gamma rays are your ideal choice.

And this applies to handguns bullets how?

Are you advocating expansion at the cost of penetration?

[ToddG]

Originally Posted by sff70

Are you advocating expansion at the cost of penetration?

Any hollowpoint that expands does so at the cost of some penetration. In fact, just about every ballistics expert I've ever spoken to, regardless of which "camp" he fell into, seemed to agree that there was a sweet spot for penetration and too much beyond that was a waste at best and at worst an unnecessary danger.

[HowardCohodas]

Originally Posted by sff70

And this applies to handguns bullets how?

Are you advocating expansion at the cost of penetration?

Effectiveness of a round involves many variables and I have yet to hear a cogent argument in this thread to support the position that one is primary. I was using an absurdity to illustrate the absurdity of categorical statements without support or analysis.

Hornady's new ammo puts a premium on the reliability of expansion. If you agree that the damage done by expansion is a significant contributor to stopping effectiveness, then this is a useful advancement of the technology. I would argue that since bullet placement is not the most controllable variable in a SD event, that the damage done by an expanded bullet is an advantage over penetration, especially in small caliber. Since there are examples of the fight continuing several seconds after a bullet in the heart, it is hard to sustain the argument that penetration is the be all and end all.

I can also provide a good argument that penetration is also important. However, I'll leave that to the advocates of that position.

[HowardCohodas]

Originally Posted by ToddG

Any hollowpoint that expands does so at the cost of some penetration. In fact, just about every ballistics expert I've ever spoken to, regardless of which "camp" he fell into, seemed to agree that there was a sweet spot for penetration and too much beyond that was a waste at best and at worst an unnecessary danger.

As usual, Todd says succinctly what some of us blather on about. I need succinct lessons.

[DocGKR]

"Then gamma rays are your ideal choice."

Now that was funny!

Like most things in life, there needs to be a balance between penetration and expansion when discussing handgun projectiles. The degree and rapidity of any physiological incapacitation is determined by the anatomic structures the handgun projectile disrupts and the severity the tissue damage caused by the bullet. Physiologically, immediate incapacitation or death can only occur when the brain or upper spinal cord is damaged or destroyed. Circulatory system collapse from severe disruption of the vital organs and blood vessels in the torso is the only other reliable method of physiological incapacitation from small arms. If the CNS is uninjured, physiological incapacitation is delayed until blood loss is sufficient to deprive the brain of oxygen. A penetrating handgun projectile physically crushes and destroys tissue as it cuts its path through the body. The space occupied by this pulped and disintegrated tissue is referred to as the permanent cavity. The permanent cavity, or wound track, is quite simply the hole bored by the handgun projectile's passage. The formation of this permanent cavity is consistent and reliable. More rapid incapacitation may occur with greater tissue disruption; obviously, handgun bullets of greater diameter crush more tissue, forming a larger permanent cavity. However, projectiles must be able to penetrate sufficiently to reach vital organs; handgun bullets that may be required to incapacitate aggressors must reliably penetrate a minimum of approximately 10 to 12 inches of tissue in order to ensure disruption of the major organs and blood vessels in the torso from any angle and through excessive adipose tissue, hypertrophied muscle, or intervening anatomic structures, such as a raised arm.

[sff70]

Absolutely these things are all interconnected, and there are tradeoffs for everything. I do not envy the job of the engineers at the ammo companies. They have a very tough set of challenges to address.

And absolutely there is a "sweet spot". Per the FBI criteria, it's more than 12" and less than 18". But also in their words, over penetration is more desirable than underpenetration.

A projectile that expands at the cost of sufficient penetration is not a good tradeoff. One of the better examples of this is the STHP.

Once you have an adequate range of penetration to reach the vital organs, vessels, and structures, then a bigger projectile (expanding) is better. But you have to get to deep enough to reach them 1st.

A .75" diameter projectile penetrating 6" into the torso is not going to have the same effect as a .57" diameter projectile penetrating 12".

The more expansion you have, the less penetration you have, typically. One has an inverse effect on the other.

The challenge is how do you reliably increase both?

I would also argue that bullet placement is the most controllable variable in a self defense event. It's like real estate - location, location, location.

I acknowledge that proper placement can be sometimes difficult to attain in a fight, though through training we can increase the skill level to make this more likely.

[Parabellum9x19mm]

a few questions

1)
is there the same problem with jacket separation like we see in the other poly filled hollow point projo, the Corbon Pow`R Ball?

in the high speed photos i saw, the Pow`R Ball completely separated into its three components: jacket, core and poly-ball. this occurred after only a few inches of bare jelly.


does anyone know if the new Hornady rounds are bonded better?

2)
how does the Hornady Critical Defense ammo stack up against the Federal EFMJ?

where can one even buy EFMJ? i haven't found a good source

3)
should i forget about the new Federal and Hornady loads and just stick to Speer GD?

[ToddG]

Originally Posted by Parabellum9x19mm

3)
should i forget about the new Federal and Hornady loads and just stick to Speer GD?

That one's easy.

Yes.

[Zhukov]

Originally Posted by Parabellum9x19mm

a few questions

2)
how does the Hornady Critical Defense ammo stack up against the Federal EFMJ?

where can one even buy EFMJ? i haven't found a good source

Are you located in a state that doesn't allow HPs? If so, then the Hornady's *might* be a good choice assuming their testing is legit.

But like the previous poster said - if you're already carrying GDHPs, then don't switch.

[Parabellum9x19mm]

no, i'm not in New Jersey or anything.

i can have hollow points.

i'll just stick to Gold Dots. they feed well in everything and they perform well.

always looking for a better mousetrap for some reason, don't ask me why.

thanks for the info all.

[DocGKR]

EFMJ, Powerball, etc... are NOT better than a robust expanding JHP, however, they are better than FMJ.

[Alpha Sierra]

Maybe someone should test it according to IWBA protocols before pronouncing sentence?

[DocGKR]

We are, this week in fact.

[Zhukov]

Originally Posted by DocGKR

We are, this week in fact.

Good news. Anytime something new comes out, people are always interested in finding out more about it. Hopefully you can share the results of your testing, especially if you're going to test the .380...