Federal HST- Impressive performance!

[trunkmonkey]

The ATK testing does make the HST look like a quantum leap in bullet technology. However, since ATK is essentially advertising Federal and CCI Speer ammunition my bias alert starts beeping at me. Their testing forum is a a LE sales convention to get the attending agencies to buy their product versus the competition. Their testing shows the Gold Dot beating out the Ranger Talon in several cases in expansion and that has never been the case for the Gold Dot. The GD has always been a better penetrator than expander. If you go to Winchester's website, their numbers seem to be more honest. A lot of their loads didn't do all that well and failed one or more of the FBI protocols........what kinda salesman would put up numbers like that unless they were being honest?

Dr. Roberts and his team tested the popular loads such as HST, Ranger Talon, Gold Dot, Golden Saber, and others. In his testing the HST was very similar to the other barbed expander......the Winchester Ranger Talon(SXT). His impression from his testing was that he thought the Talons were still a better overall load. They have no financial gain, and they have no bias to promote one brand over another. Hopefully Doc will correct me if I'm wrong.

Personally, I like Federal's loads very much. I normally carry their Tactical Bonded series for duty use. Federal designed the TB to make up for the standard HST's problem with shooting through barriers such as windshields. However, I am a little skeptical of the HST having that level of expansion based on past unbias testing and who's doing the testing. I think it's just as good as the Talon in terms of expansion, and Federal's bonded loads seem to have better expansion than the Gold Dots.

If it matters I've been to one of these workshops. Even though yes it was basically ATK advertising, we fired all the popular rounds and the HST and gold dot
were obviously the best. With the HST rounds standing out.

This was into calibrated gelatin, using pistols and rifles that random guys brought with them, not company weapons. And the shooter was just some guy that attended.

Everyone can take from the experience whatever they want, but the results were obvious.

And when they show pictures of what the HST round looks like expanded in their ads they are not exaggerating at all.

I already have carried gold dot for quite a while. Going to that seminar made me an HST believer. However I don't think
anyone could go wrong choosing either round.

[Glock17JHP]

Trunkmonkey,

I would assume you currently have or soon plan to have the HST in your favorite handgun... correct?

If yes, would you please share with us the weapon/load combination you have or will soon have?

Do you know the expected penetration/expansion from this specific weapon/load combination, perhaps from your personally witnessing the testing you referred to above?

And finally, are you happy with just the expansion characteristics of this load, or... are you happy with both the penetration and expansion characteristics?

Please elaborate as much as you are willing to on these answers... more is better...

[trunkmonkey]

Yes I'm running 155gr HST in .40 and 147gr HST in 9mm currently in glock 17/22's.

I can't make exact quotes on the performance but will say they were meticulous in recording the results. Not like they were just writing down the best numbers.

ATK has a few of the workshop results logged on their website from different demonstrations they have done. You can find the raw data your looking for on there. I found the other tests to accurately represent what I witnessed also.

Matter of fact they used my glock 17 to do the test firing for all the 9mm shots.

I was extremely impressed with the performance of the HST. Gold Dot was a close 2nd. Anyone that likes the characteristics of the gold dot rounds I believe would be even more happy with both increased expansion and penetration of the HST rounds over most of the same gr and caliber gold dot rounds.

We fired into bare gelatin, through glass, and through heavy clothing.

I found the results to be very upfront and obvious. With the HST coming out on top pretty much all the time. We fired 9mm, .40,.45, and 5.56.

http://le.atk.com/general/irl/woundballistics.aspx

I'm very happy with everything about the HST's

We also fired the EFMJ rounds which were pretty cool. Certainly a good choice in weapons that may have feeding problems with hollow point rounds but where more than just a standard FMJ is needed.

Expansion was right in between a FMJ and a hollowpoint. As well as penetration being in between both.

[Glock17JHP]

Trunkmonkey,

I have looked at all of the .PDF's ATK puts on their website... I also understand that you were there and witnessed the testing firsthand. However, I was not there, and am not sure how their gelatin was prepared, and have a questioning attitude about the calibration, also. Gelatin preparation and calibration are critical, and you don't just calibrate to give the gelatin block an 'OK'. The calibration shots need to be performed both before and after all shots in a block, and the data from the calibration velocity and depth then needs to be figured into the penetration depths to correct the numbers to what reality would really be. Each block needs to be calibrated, twice.

In the most recent event listed (Fort Collins 6-26-08), there were 52 shots fired, according to the data sheets. What concerns me is that the only data from the so-called calibration says: 5 Shot BB Avg: 3.5

So, it appears that only 5 BB's were fired. I would guess that there were more than 5 gelatin blocks fired into. I don't think this testing is being done in a way the IWBA would have approved, and we would have listed both calibration shot velocities and penetrations for each calibration shot fired.

I think ATK knows better, too...

Lastly, I noticed in this particular test event (Fort Collins 6-26-08), when they tested 9mm ammunition they used 147 grain loads in the Federal HST and the Remington Golden Saber, and they were non +P loads. For the Speer Gold Dot and Winchester Ranger, however, they used 124 and 127 grains, respectively... and they were +P loads. This is sort of an 'apples to oranges' sort of thing to me. They should compare 147 grain loads in all 4 loads.

[DRT]

Just curious, why did you choose the 155gr version of the HST?

In my personal, unscientific testing with clothing in front of H20-filled jugs, the heavier HSTs open both larger and more robustly. Additionally, per email feedback from an ATK engineer, the heavier HSTs do better through glass than their lighter counterparts.

Right now, I have 180gr HSTs in all my .40 weapons (except on duty, when I use 165gr GD, as issued/required). I also like the 180gr Ranger and would use either with equivalent confidence.

[Marcus L.]

Just to add, the 155gr HST did NOT pass the independent testing performed by Robert's team. Due to the 155gr bullet's poor sectional density, it's momentum is too low resulting in poor penetration once it expands. The only 155gr load that did pass was the Speer Gold Dot which like all bonded bullets, doesn't expand as much resulting in better penetration.

https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=19887

Glock17JHP makes some very valid points. There are ways to purposefully throw off a gel test such as leaving the blocks out of temperature too long, slighly wet denim or heavy clothing(or lace with petrolleum jelly), .....ect to change the performance of a particular load. These little things would not be noticed by someone just observing the testing. I've noticed such discrepancies on internet testing before. Remington claimed that their Golden Sabers were supieror loads with excellent expansion that rivaled the competition about 10 years ago. They even had their own gel tests which showed superior expansion and penetration. Independent testing proved otherwise.

This is why it is ALWAYS much more logical to seek out testing data by independent facilities that are known for using accurate proceedures and have no financial benefit in regard to the results. Such facilities would be the FBI, Firearms Institute, or Dr. Robert's team. The HST by all unbias accounts is just like all the other top loads and doesn't eclispe them like the ATK testing shows.

[trunkmonkey]

ok ok gents. Let say the gelatin was not calibrated properly.

Well then it wasn't calibrated properly for ALL the different ammo tested.
Would that not put them all on the same playing field??

For arguements sake say the tests were dicked with. Well they were like that for ALL the rounds we tested then. If they did it wrong, they did it wrong for ALL the rounds tested.

Would the IWBA approve, maybe. maybe not. Hell I don't know.

What I can say is it was a level playing field for all rounds tested and which one was coming out on top. And like I said before the gold dot's were damn near as good.

There was no big "setup" going on here to make that round look good. We fire more than a few non ATK produced rounds that guys brought with them too just so guys could see what their own carry loads were doing.

I chose the 155gr .40 HST because I didn't mind giving up a slight amount of expansion for a little more penetration. And for what it's worth the 180's were a bitch to find when I started carrying HST. But I'll probably switch over to the heavier load when I rotate the ammo out. No rush.

What can I say, seek out and attend a demonstration. If your impressed cool, if not, that's cool too.

I don't think that the HST eclipses all other rounds, but I do think it edges out most of them.

I'd carry gold dot or HST without thinking twice.

I'm just joe shmuck that attended and is writing his observations.

[ToddG]

Just to add, the 155gr HST did NOT pass the independent testing performed by Robert's team. Due to the 155gr bullet's poor sectional density, it's momentum is too low resulting in poor penetration once it expands. The only 155gr load that did pass was the Speer Gold Dot which like all bonded bullets, doesn't expand as much resulting in better penetration.

Do we know for certain that Doctor Roberts tested the 155gr HST? The fact that a load isn't on his list could mean he hasn't shot any for detailed testing yet. Last I knew, for example, that was the case with 124gr +p HST.

[Marcus L.]

Do we know for certain that Doctor Roberts tested the 155gr HST? The fact that a load isn't on his list could mean he hasn't shot any for detailed testing yet. Last I knew, for example, that was the case with 124gr +p HST.

I came across some Firearms Institute testing from early 2008 on some HST loads:

9mm Fed 147 gr JHP HST (P9HST2) from G17:
BG: vel=1037f/s, pen=11.9”, RD=0.64”, RW=147.8gr
4 layer denim: vel=1049f/s, pen=14.7”, RD=0.54”, RW=147.5gr
auto windshield: vel=1042 f/s, pen=13.4”, RD=0.53”, RW=140.4gr

.40 S&W Fed 180 gr JHP HST (P40HST1) from S&W 4006
BG: vel=960 f/s, pen=12.6”, RD=0.65”, RW=181.1gr
4 layer denim: vel=961 f/s, pen=15.6”, RD=0.62, 181.3 gr
auto windshield: vel=904 f/s, pen=15.2”, RD=0.47”, RW=180.4gr

.45 ACP Fed 230 gr +P JHP HST (P45HST1) from 1911
BG: vel=926 f/s, pen=12.6”, RD=0.74”, RW=231.8gr
4 layer denim: vel=915 f/s, pen=15.4”, RD=0.67, 231.1 gr
auto windshield: vel=918 f/s, pen=19.7”, RD=0.54”, RW=228.6gr


So, definately not anywhere near the numbers that the ATK testers were claiming. With regard to the 155gr HST, hopefully Dr. Roberts can answer that. I recently read an old thread on Tactical Forums where Doc said that they had not tested the 165gr HST because there was little demand for it.

Until we can clarify that the 155gr HST did not pass the testing for certain, ignore my previous post on it.

[PA PATRIOT]

I hope one day maybe the forums ballistics experts could test my PD's duty loads and see what result s occur.

Federal Tactical HST 9mm 147gr H/P...Glock Model-17
Federal Tactical HST .40S&W 165gr H/P..Glock Model-22
Federal Tactical HST .45acp 230gr H/P..Glock Model-21