Is a 4 inch barrel too long for the 135+P Gold Dot .38

dorchester · #1 02-12-09, 14:18

The consensus seems to be that the 135+P Gold Dot .38 Special load does everything you can expect a pistol round to do in the snubbies. I've got a 4 inch barreled revolver and the question arises: does a longer barrel (with its' higher velocities) overspeed the bullet's design parameters at close ranges? Will this fine loading then over expand and lose the requisite penetration? If so, what's the load of choice for a 4 inch .38, the Remington 158+P LHP perhaps? Maybe I should just cut back on the over analyzing and go to the range? Thanks for any input guys.

Glock17JHP · #2 02-12-09, 14:35

I personally think the Winchester 'FBI load' is the best in the 158 grain LSWCHP loads... the Remington is softer, might be better in a shorter barrel than the Winchester.

And YES... I personally think the Speer load is best in a barrel shorter than 4"...

sjc3081 · #3 02-12-09, 14:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by dorchester

The consensus seems to be that the 135+P Gold Dot .38 Special load does everything you can expect a pistol round to do in the snubbies. I've got a 4 inch barreled revolver and the question arises: does a longer barrel (with its' higher velocities) overspeed the bullet's design parameters at close ranges? Will this fine loading then over expand and lose the requisite penetration? If so, what's the load of choice for a 4 inch .38, the Remington 158+P LHP perhaps? Maybe I should just cut back on the over analyzing and go to the range? Thanks for any input guys.

The GD is what NYPD carries in their 4" and snubby 38s.

Glock17JHP · #4 02-12-09, 16:04

That doesn't automatically make it a good choice, though...

sjc3081 · #5 02-12-09, 16:38

The shoot alot of people in NYC and do some serious documentation. They also issue the Speer GD124+P ,that was engineered for them, and that has been performing excellent. But I guess you know better.

Marcus L. · #6 02-12-09, 18:44

Just from observations from other loads, the 135gr+P will reach its expansion threshold and not expand beyond a certain point in a 4" barrel. A 4" revolver barrel really will not have enough of a velocity increase to fold the bullet's petals back with enough force to make the overall expansion smaller(probably only and additional 50-75fps). What you would likely experience is slightly improved penetration with good expansion. A good example is what we saw with Dr. Robert's testing of the double tap loads. Without actually testing the load, I can't be certain......but I'm confident in my guess.

You have more to worry about with using a barrel too short for the barrel length a particular load was designed for, than slightly increasing barrel length. If you were using a carbine length barrel, it might change the situation a bit. My advice is, don't sweat it and continue to use the Speer 135gr+P Short Barrel GD in your short barrel and longer barrel revolvers.

Glock17JHP · #7 02-12-09, 20:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by sjc3081

The shoot alot of people in NYC and do some serious documentation. They also issue the Speer GD124+P ,that was engineered for them, and that has been performing excellent. But I guess you know better.

Re-read the previous posts... we were talking about the GD .38 Special +P 135 grain HP... you even commented it was "...what NYPD carries in their 4" and snubby 38s." In your post above, you are obviously now talking about a 9mm load...

You are missing the point... the point is this:
Just because a load is chosen by a particular LE group, that doesn't automatically make it a good choice...

Glock17JHP · #8 02-12-09, 20:51

Good point, Marcus L...

RyanB · #9 02-13-09, 00:39

Do they use the same bullet in the .357 GDSB load? If they do I would be completely comfortable using the .38 load in a 4" revolver, as velocities are probably similar.

Glock17JHP · #10 02-13-09, 00:42

I don't know if it is the same bullet, but your logic makes sense!!!

Fail-Safe · #11 02-13-09, 21:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by sjc3081

They also issue the Speer GD124+P ,that was engineered for them...

Uh...nuh-uh.

The 124gr+P Speer GDHP was around long before NYPD adopted it.

snubbie K · #12 02-15-09, 01:43

The 135 gr. Gold Dot is the same bullet in both rounds.

I used to carry the .357 for short barrel rounds. But I started reading about them having some problems when fired from the .357 into newprint and such.

I wrote Speer and received the following reply (loosly paraphrased as I remember it now) .

"The 135 gr. Gold Dot is being slightly "over driven" in the .357 format. It is possible that it may loose it's tip when overdriven. But being a bonded bullet, it should hold together and still penetrate deeply. It should still be a great round for carry in your .357 snub."

I wasn't really reassured by this language. I felt that Speer should have developed another slightly tweaked .357 version before they marketed it to the public. I didn't like the idea of them using a round that was perhaps perfect at .38+p speeds and pushing it to the limit just to make a little more money on it. (my feelings, anyway)

I switched to the Corbon DPX round and have been satisfied. I wont go back to the Speer round except in .38 format. But, that's just me.

I'm sure it would do the job in .357 or in a longer barrel in .38 (within limits). Who knows for sure - it may even be a good thing to have a little fragmentation along the way.

I just don't like words like "overdriven", "should hold together", "loose it's tip", and "it SHOULD still be a great round for carry in your .357 snub".

To each his own. I'm just sensative, I suppose. I'll only fire a round of the stuff (other than occasional familiararity practice) in a life and death (MY life and MY death) situation. I want the best for my gun. I feel I have it now with the DPX.

I have a reloaded practice round that duplicates it's recoil and it's POI just about right and I practice with it. I suppose if I carried an auto, I could not afford to use the DPX because of the cost of practice shooting.

Alaskapopo · #13 02-21-09, 18:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by sjc3081

The GD is what NYPD carries in their 4" and snubby 38s.

No offense but what the NYPD carries has no bearing on rather its a good or bad load. Did you know that only in recent history the NYPD allowed the use of JHP ammunition at all. They were one of the last departments to do so. The are not trend setters rather they lag behind due to political pressures. They have made blunders like adopting the NY2 pull on their Glocks that gives the gun a 12 pound pull making it very difficult to hit with. But then again that would explain why their hit ratio hovers between 10 and 15%. I am sorry but you need to pick a better agency to use as a role model.
Pat

sjc3081 · #14 02-22-09, 00:14

Pat NYPD uses the NY 1 trigger.

Alaskapopo · #15 02-22-09, 00:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by sjc3081

Pat NYPD uses the NY 1 trigger.

I am sorry your mistaken. NYPD uses NY2. The New York State Police use NY1.
Pat

snubbie K · #16 02-22-09, 21:51

Whether NYPD is the world's best authority or not is - at this stage - immaterial IMO.

The round in question got a lot of notoriety because of them. But it has also been tested and commented on perhaps more than any other round of late because of that notoriety.

We have geletin and newprint and everything in between to look at to see how it opens up and holds together and how it penetrates things. We also have some street data to look at as well as comments by those who pack the round for a living.

I suppose it is true that if someone chooses a round for self defense based on one person's say so - or even one group of people - he isn't availing himself of all the data he needs for such an important decision.

But that's not the case with this particular carry round in most cases at this stage of the data.

Used as reccommended in a snub .38 it seems to be as good or better than anything out there for most cases of .38spl. carrier's situation. We also have a fair idea of the peramenters of it's best performance and when it becomes a little less reccommended.

Glock17JHP · #17 02-22-09, 22:52

snubbie K,

The GD 135 grain .38 Special +P load is a fairly NEW load... and it was engineered for a 1 7/8 inch barreled revolver (snubbie). If it still works acceptably in a longer barrel, that is a good 'bonus'. I tested this load in a 3 inch S&W Model 64, and was not convinced it is a good load in that barrel length or longer barrels. Some have suggested it works fine in barrels 4 inches long, but I have yet to see gelatin results that would prove this. Someone suggested that the petals will roll back to a certain point and then the extra velocity will just push the bullet deeper. This is not the typical performance one gets when one increases the velocity of a HP revolver bullet. Someone needs to actually shoot this load from a 4 inch revolver into properly prepared gelatin to find out how it actually can be expected to perform in such a barrel length... otherwise we are just theorizing...

TiroFijo · #18 02-23-09, 12:57

I just want to add that while in general longer barrel = more velocity, in revolvers there can be a lot of variation from one to another, so in some cases with a 3"+ barrel the velocity (and performance) is going to be very similar to a 2" barrel, and in others the velocity increase can be quite substancial.

sjc3081 · #19 02-23-09, 13:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by Alaskapopo

I am sorry your mistaken. NYPD uses NY2. The New York State Police use NY1.
Pat

You are correct and I was wrong.

Glock17JHP · #20 02-23-09, 14:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by TiroFijo

I just want to add that while in general longer barrel = more velocity, in revolvers there can be a lot of variation from one to another, so in some cases with a 3"+ barrel the velocity (and performance) is going to be very similar to a 2" barrel, and in others the velocity increase can be quite substancial.

The revolver used has nothing unusual in the tolerances: barrel/cylinder gap, forcing cone dimensions, etc. I do understand you will get variation from firearm to firearm, but if this 135 grain .38 +P load is as good as some suggest in relation to barrel length variations, my firarm should not be an issue. I still think someone needs to actually test this load in longer barrels than 1 7/8 inches... that way we can stop speculting on this issue.