What can a rifle class do for me?

SoDak · #1 02-17-09, 22:52

For the past few weeks I've noticed this flyer that Corbon is getting John Farnam to hold an Urban Rifle Course in Sturgis SD this summer. I'm tempted to attend it since I wouldn't mind learning how to use my rifle more effectively and since this class is far closer(two hour drive for me) than any other rifle classes have been. I'm having troubles though justifying the $545 course fee plus the cost for at least 650 rounds of 5.56, when I would like to just buy more ammo. I'm sure the training would be nice, but I'm not sure how useful it would be for me considering where I live and what I do, but it is very close so I wouldn't spend too much time traveling or wasting gas. Can you guys help explain to me whether or not this course would be worth attending.

All I can find out about the course is from this site, http://defense-training.com/courses/rifle.html, although I might try to stop by Corbon and talk to them on Friday if I have time.

rob_s · #2 02-18-09, 05:53

I can't speak to the event, venue, or instructor, but....

3-day firearms training classes are my vacations. I almost always go to a facility that's about 3 hours away, stay 3-4 nights, and get away. Even if I go and thoroughly dislike the class, I have always learned something and ALWAYS enjoyed myself. Even with a "bad" class I've never regretted going. Spending 3 days hanging around with like-minded folks, shooting, and always improving is never a bad thing IMHO.

With that said, it appears that this class is two days for $550? That, IMHO, is on the extremely high side. The most expensive classes I know of average $200/day.

Sam · #3 02-18-09, 06:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by rob_s

With that said, it appears that this class is two days for $550? That, IMHO, is on the extremely high side. The most expensive classes I know of average $200/day.

That price is in line for John Farnam's classes, pistol or long gun. I've never taken his classes but have heard tons of things from his former students and disciples.

John_Wayne777 · #4 02-18-09, 07:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by SoDak

Can you guys help explain to me whether or not this course would be worth attending.

I can't speak to this particular class or this particular instructor as I've never trained with this instructor....

I can, however, speak more to the point of training in general. Believe it or not the sentiment you expressed is quite common. Just a few months ago on another site someone asked me if they should spend X dollars on a new railed Sig P220 or the same X dollars on the tuition for a training course. "The class is 3 days, but the Sig would be something I could have forever!"

This is the question I asked him:

If you knew that in two weeks you'd be involved in a gunfight, what would you rather do in preparation: Buy a new gun/more ammo/etc or get training from a competent professional?

Formal training is certainly expensive...Lord knows I've dropped a lot of money on it over the years. With ammo prices these days it's worse than ever. Still, I've never regretted a penny of what I've spent on training and I'm constantly on the lookout to do more of it.

In formal training you learn everything you've been doing wrong without even knowing it. You learn lessons about mindset that can quite literally save your life. It's one of those figuring out that the Earth is round sorts of things. Everyone I know who has taken formal training has always signed up for more after their first class...and to a man they extol the virtue of participation in formal training. That's what I would call a "clue".

Having guns and ammo is great...but knowing how to use them is dramatically more important than buying more guns and ammo. (...and sadly much of what passes for police and LE training is inferior to what you can learn from competent instructors like Larry Vickers, Ken Hackathorn, and others, so even that training is often not good enough) Most people (myself included) are not capable of teaching themselves how to fight with a firearm any more than they are able to teach themselves calculus.

My first training course was a handgun course at US Training Center. (Formerly Blackwater USA) I went into the first day thinking I knew how to shoot. By the end of day 2 my illusions of adequacy were shattered and I came to the understanding that I had just opened the door to a whole new world of information and skill that I had no clue existed prior to that moment. When I drove away from Moyock I was a 100% better shooter than I was when I first drove down Puddin' Ridge Road.

When it was over I had the irresistible urge to go back in time and kick my own ass for not signing up for classes sooner.

My advice would be this:

Take the class. Then when it's over honestly assess your experience. Training (especially the first formal training session you attend) won't always be "fun". As a matter of fact, it can be downright humbling. Assume your ego will take a pounding and put that aside. Show up to the class with a positive attitude, safe gunhandling skills (something else formal training teaches very well) and the commitment to listen 10 times as much as you talk, and odds are that you'll learn a bunch and you may even start to have a good time.

Business_Casual · #5 02-18-09, 08:22

I've trained with DTI at Quantico.

John is a very good instructor who will improve your shooting and gun handling skills. He is a former Marine combat veteran and law enforcement officer with real time on the street. You will learn what is important and what is necessary - whether you apply that to a handgun, rifle or shotgun after the class is up to you.

You won't leave with a suite of drills to practice - based on what I was taught.

I can recommend him and I have trained with Blackwater, Vickers Tactical and Martial Gun.

I realize I have no credentials so hopefully some of the SMEs will read this and post regarding John.

M_P

markm · #6 02-18-09, 08:41

That is a damned steep tuition. But since you live in an area that doesn't offer a lot of alternative training options, you might have to bite the bullet.

Out here in the Phx area, we can get 2 day training for $99 through the community college... with really good instructors/guest instructors.

If you have no rifle training at all, I think you should get some for sure.

RogerinTPA · #7 02-18-09, 09:54

I echo what others have said. Having a weapon without training, you are mediocre at best. You need to develop your skills, which will transpose itself to other weapons you will handle. The price is steep so personally, I'd shop around and look at the training forum. You may even consider a few cheaper one or two day courses to develop confidence and save money, then go for the longer courses.

**SHIVAN** · #8 02-18-09, 10:00

Weapons manipulation under simulated "stress", exposes technique "errors" and offers corrective techniques that can make you faster to react, exposes gear weaknesses or improvement areas, and lastly camaraderie in the shooting community.

650rds with under the instruction of a solid instructor is probably equivalent to 1500rds, or more, of self-diagnosis and instruction. In fact, depending on your background, you may not EVER be able to duplicate the input that John would offer you in 2 days. No matter how many rounds, or years you went after it.

rob_s · #9 02-18-09, 10:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by SHIVAN

650rds with under the instruction of a solid instructor is probably equivalent to 1500rds, or more, of self-diagnosis and instruction. In fact, depending on your background, you may not EVER be able to duplicate the input that John would offer you in 2 days. No matter how many rounds, or years you went after it.

EXCELLENT point(s).

I was SOing a state match one year, and I had a particularly belligerant shooter insisting that his single hole was actually two shots tell me "I've been shooting since before you were born!" as his only evidence that he was right and I was wrong. I replied with "wow, and in all that time you still haven't learned how to actually shoot, huh?"

Blake · #10 02-18-09, 15:13

Bottom line.....

If you want to use a rifle effectively, you MUST take formal training. No amount of self-taught BS can prepare you to effectively use your weapon in a no shit situation, unless you have some really high-speed buddies.

I learned a little bit during my Army training. Minuscule in comparison to what I have learned from taking courses with a guys like Vickers and others.

This should be a non-negotiable for people wanting to use their weapons in defensive situations.

SoDak · #11 02-18-09, 17:05

Thanks for the advice guys, it's still tough deciding for a few reasons, but at least I understand why this is a good thing to do. If it makes any difference the flyer say the class will take place over three days versus two. There are other minor differences with the flyer and the website, sorry I didn't mention that. It still seems a little high especially for me(college student), but I think it evens out considering I don't have to leave the state to do it. I'm going to contact corbon and see how long the sign up period is since I'd like to do it as late as possible since it may be hard to schedule it in.

Buckaroo · #12 02-18-09, 18:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by SoDak

Thanks for the advice guys, it's still tough deciding for a few reasons, but at least I understand why this is a good thing to do. If it makes any difference the flyer say the class will take place over three days versus two. There are other minor differences with the flyer and the website, sorry I didn't mention that. It still seems a little high especially for me(college student), but I think it evens out considering I don't have to leave the state to do it. I'm going to contact corbon and see how long the sign up period is since I'd like to do it as late as possible since it may be hard to schedule it in.

Maybe Corbon has an intern program you could enter that would include you taking the class for a discount?

Buckaroo (who used to live there and wishes he could join you!)

dhrith · #13 02-18-09, 18:38

If you're local to the venue, this should be a no brainer. I don't see much advertised up your way so when you factor in travel costs to get anywhere else it'd seem to me to be pretty decent.

gyp_c2 · #14 02-18-09, 18:52

...one thing is certain...
You will never know how much you don't know until you actually take some classes...
No one can convince you of this 'til you stand on a line with a bunch of other guys and get a real day or three of training...with someone that knows what they're doing...
Up to you...

oregonshooter · #15 02-18-09, 21:30

I learned more from John during the breaks than during the pistol class I was taking from him.

I was already a good shot (several years of IPSC) and was asking myself if I should spend the cash or not, but decided that I should based on a.) it was a well known instructor, my first, and b.) I've never had a bad day shooting and saw it as a vacation also.

Pick the man's brain every chance you get about anything during the breaks. He loves to teach and share his experience and he has a lot of it to share.

John's classes are not the new "cutting edge" or "how to build an operator in 2 days" that a lot of people are pushing, but all the info is solid fundamentals and he will point out stuff you don't see yourself.

He caught me sweeping my hand on the draw right off the bat. I disagreed that I was (in my head, not out loud) but it did change my drawstroke from the typical IPSC 3 point to a 4 point that scrapes the weak hand off the torso, leaving no room for error.

I'd go if you can.

g5m · #16 02-19-09, 12:51

How far away from your residence is that class?
If it's 'I can stay at home and drive in to class' it's a bargain.
Tuition may be high but how often are nationally known instructors available locally?

You will learn a LOT in a short time from such a class.

And, afterwards, you can look back and better assess it. You might think it was worth it and maybe you won't. I'd bet you'd think it was 'high in cost but worth it'. Sort of like buying an expensive AR vs. a cheap one.

chadbag · #17 02-20-09, 17:44

I've had a Farnham class once before about 9 years ago. I learned a ton and he is a very accessible guy. In fact I ran into him at the SHOT Show this year and went and chatted with him some. He is coming to Utah this year for 2 rifle classes and I may consider doing one with him (but am already signed up for 2 rifle classes out of state -- Vickers and Rogers and 2 handgun classes -- Magpul Dynamics and Vickers -- so may not have more funds in the company training budget this year).

The big thing you get from taking a class is confidence in using your weapon. And if you practice what you learn you will know what to do when the crap hits the fan without having to think about it. But I think "confidence" is the biggest thing you get if you go with an open mind and learn all you can.

3CTactical · #18 02-23-09, 14:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by markm

That is a damned steep tuition. But since you live in an area that doesn't offer a lot of alternative training options, you might have to bite the bullet.

Out here in the Phx area, we can get 2 day training for $99 through the community college... with really good instructors/guest instructors.

If you have no rifle training at all, I think you should get some for sure.

markm, What community college do you refer to? I'm in the Gilbert area, and would love to take a class - especially if the instructors are decent and it's only $99! Do you have any additional info?

Steve Moses · #19 03-04-09, 17:02

IMO, everybody needs to take at least one class from John Farnam, and I have taken three. He is extremely good at teaching mindset in a fighting firearm course along with proven gunhandling technique (an area where most people are weak, esp. in stressful circumstances). He teaches no-frill basic combat marksmanship for use in real-life situations, not three-gun matches or bulls-eye. Highly recommended.

Steve Moses

CarlosDJackal · #20 03-06-09, 14:37

IMHO, the most important aspect of any shooting course is the feedback that you receive from the Instructors. We all develop bad habits once we start doing things outside of a training environment. Unless you train with other like-minded individuals who can honestly provide you (and accept) with the constructive criticism that is needed to maintain proficiency, it is hard for us to realize what we are doing.

Even then, it does not hurt to attend classes with different Instructors because each one will catch things that others don't and each one will provide you with viable alternatives for the same issue. This will allow you to try new techniques and identify the ones that best works for you. JM2CW.