Range Report: Precision Shooting With an Aimpoint

Molon · #1 07-25-09, 21:37

Range Report: Precision Shooting With an Aimpoint

First and foremost, the Aimpoint red dot sight is a combat sight. Its primary purpose is for use in situations that require “reflexive shooting” at multiple targets, at close ranges. The Aimpoint excels in this type of shooting because it easily allows you to shoot with both eyes open and to focus on the target while shooting. All of my self-defense AR-15s have Aimpoints mounted on them. However, should the need arise (for example, making a head-shot on an aggressor at 100 yards who has most of his body behind hard cover) the Aimpoint sight is certainly up to the task of making precision shots.

There are those who claim that when using an Aimpoint sight with a four minute of angle dot, that it is not possible to shoot groups that are smaller than four minutes of angle in extreme spread. One such person has gone so far as to claim that groups shot from 100 yards using an Aimpoint with a 4 MOA dot will be “greater than 4 inches. Usually much greater.” As we shall soon see, such statements are completely false.

To determine the level of precision obtainable when using an Aimpoint sight with a 4 MOA dot, I mounted an Aimpoint ML2 with a 4 MOA dot on one of my Krieger barreled AR-15s. This AR-15 is easily capable of producing consistent sub-MOA 10-shot groups at 100 yards when using a high magnification scope. Shooting with the Aimpoint sight was done from a bench-rest at a distance of 100 yards using NRA 200 yard High Power type targets scaled-down for 100 yards. (The aiming black is approximately the same width as a human head.) Sighting was done using the whole dot centered on the bullseye. Three 10-shot groups were fired in a row for evaluation.

Zeroing the Aimpoint sight at 100 yards was conducted during a down-pour with 20-25 mph winds. The first two 10-shot groups were also fired under these conditions. The first 10-shot group had an extreme spread of 1.41”.

With another couple clicks of windage and elevation adjustment, the second 10-shot group had all shots going into the X-ring. The extreme spread for this group was 1.19”.

Just as quickly as the down-pour had started, the rain stopped, the winds died down and the sun began shining again. I posted a new and dry target on the 100 yard backer and continued shooting. The third 10-shot group had an extreme spread of 1.14”. The average extreme spread for all three of the 10-shot groups was 1.25”.

ETA

Here’s a little demonstration of the “practical accuracy” obtainable when using an Aimpoint with a 4 MOA dot. For this exercise, I used a 14.5” chrome lined, NATO chambered carbine. Shooting was done from the prone supported position. From a distance of 50 yards, I fired ten quick shots at an FBI “Q” target. The results . . . ten “bullets in the brain pan, squish!”

The 10-shot group has an extreme spread of 1.18”, which at 50 yards is equivalent to 2.26 MOA; far smaller than the 4 MOA dot on the Aimpoint. Again, this disproves the spouted nonsense that “practical accuracy” is not possible when using an Aimpoint with a 4 MOA dot.

Remember, I have astigmatisms in both eyes, which make using an Aimpoint a bit of a challenge. I have no doubt, that someone with better eyesight could produce much better results.

Another example. I'll be the first person to state that I couldn’t do this on command; none the less, the 10-shot group pictured below was fired using an Aimpoint with a 4 MOA dot at a distance of 100 yards. I used the same set-up described in the first part of this thread. This group has an extreme spread of 0.77".

....

signal4l · #2 07-25-09, 21:43

Excellent post. Thank you for your efforts

steeltoe · #3 07-25-09, 21:57

Thank you for taking the time to share this. I'm eager to get my Strikefire on the 100yd lane soon.

Quib · #4 07-26-09, 00:17

That’s some good shootin’!

I was able to hit a piece of ½” rebar with my Aimpoint ML2 at 50m. I was pretty surprised......three hits one right after the other.

oregonshooter · #5 07-26-09, 00:22

"Precision Shooting" is obviously a subjective term. >1/4 MOA @ 100 yards is not "Precision" in my book nor >1 MOA @ 800 yards.

If a dot (4MOA or 2MOA) could make hits on 1MOA targets out to 350 yards I'd stick with it. Unfortunately you can't see 1MOA targets for sh*t at 300 yards without X3 at least.

What is you Irons group at 100yards?

Might be better to keep them zeroed at 100 and move the dot off for longer shots. The sight radius is not near as good as infinity, but you can get a more consistent hold with a post than fuzzy dot I bet.

Henny · #6 07-26-09, 07:17

Impossible!

Very good post Molon. I've never felt at a disadvantage carrying my 4 MOA ML3. It seems some people have a real dislike for the 4 MOA dots for some reason or another. I'm in my mid 40s and carry a rifle at work. For my aging eyes the 4 MOA dot is easier to pick up!

ETA: Good shooting too!

spr1 · #7 07-26-09, 08:40

Good post Molon.
Shooting good/consistent groups is key to establishing a reliable zero.
As demonstrated, the key is good shooting fundamentals and a target well matched to the dot/reticle.
Shooting IPSC style targets at 300 yards, I actually have to work harder to shoot decent groups with a 2 min dot than the 4, just due to the target/reticle combination, but MOA give or take is fairly routine with either. I do prefer the 2 min dot just to improve overall viewing of the target.
My observation has been that when people struggle to shot groups with a dot, they are using an inappropriate target, trying to focus on something that either they can't resolve with a mark 1 eyeball, or on something that they completely cover with the dot. They key for me is centering the dot on something relatively large.

MAUSER202 · #8 07-26-09, 09:22

Outstanding shooting, I am still working at improving my 100yd groups with a 1 m.o.a. eotec. I never considered the type of target could make a difference.

Spooky130 · #9 07-26-09, 09:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by oregonshooter

"Precision Shooting" is obviously a subjective term. >1/4 MOA @ 100 yards is not "Precision" in my book nor >1 MOA @ 800 yards.

If a dot (4MOA or 2MOA) could make hits on 1MOA targets out to 350 yards I'd stick with it. Unfortunately you can't see 1MOA targets for sh*t at 300 yards without X3 at least.

What is you Irons group at 100yards?

Might be better to keep them zeroed at 100 and move the dot off for longer shots. The sight radius is not near as good as infinity, but you can get a more consistent hold with a post than fuzzy dot I bet.

I don't think you missed the purpose of the post... He was attempting to disprove the myth that if using a 4 MOA dot the best you could ever possibly shoot at 100 yards would be a 4" group. I don't think he ever implied that this is the best method to shoot tiny groups. He just showed it is possible to shoot less than the MOA of the dot.

Spooky

spr1 · #10 07-26-09, 09:35

Mythbusters...... "this myth is BUSTED"

rob_s · #11 07-26-09, 09:48

molon, great post. you've been on a roll and I'm looking forward to what else you come up with and more threads in the future.

SiGfever · #12 07-26-09, 10:08

Great post and shooting, this makes the T1 look even better. I have been struggling with the choice between the ML3 (2MOA) and the T1/H1 (3.4MOA).

decodeddiesel · #13 07-26-09, 11:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by oregonshooter

"Precision Shooting" is obviously a subjective term. >1/4 MOA @ 100 yards is not "Precision" in my book nor >1 MOA @ 800 yards.

If a dot (4MOA or 2MOA) could make hits on 1MOA targets out to 350 yards I'd stick with it. Unfortunately you can't see 1MOA targets for sh*t at 300 yards without X3 at least.

What is you Irons group at 100yards?

Might be better to keep them zeroed at 100 and move the dot off for longer shots. The sight radius is not near as good as infinity, but you can get a more consistent hold with a post than fuzzy dot I bet.

Utterly and completely missed the whole point of this thread. As was clearly stated by the OP the point was to demonstrate groups less than 4 MOA are possible with a 4 MOA dot Aimpoint.

So you're saying you wouldn't use an Aimpoint because you can't make 1MOA hits with it at 350 yards? Well Sir then you completely and utterly missed the point of an Aimpoint (no pun intended).

You're last sentence makes no sense whats so ever BTW.

Thomas M-4 · #14 07-26-09, 12:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by oregonshooter

"Precision Shooting" is obviously a subjective term. >1/4 MOA @ 100 yards is not "Precision" in my book nor >1 MOA @ 800 yards.

If a dot (4MOA or 2MOA) could make hits on 1MOA targets out to 350 yards I'd stick with it. Unfortunately you can't see 1MOA targets for sh*t at 300 yards without X3 at least.

What is you Irons group at 100yards?

Might be better to keep them zeroed at 100 and move the dot off for longer shots. The sight radius is not near as good as infinity, but you can get a more consistent hold with a post than fuzzy dot I bet.

1/4 MOA at 100 yards is not precision in your book. I think you are reading the wrong book then sir. We are talking about combat rifles not a single shot 6mmbr Benchrest rifle.

You do know that RDS are for close in high speed ,high stress work right? Not precision long range shots that require a totally different tool for that job.

RogerinTPA · #15 07-26-09, 12:18

Great results Molon, well done.

Aimpoint and other RDSs, were designed for accurate close battle and are capable of combat accuracy beyond 200 yards, depending on the shooter and your zero. Anything beyond that, if looking for greater precision and accuracy, use a magnifier or a 1-4X variable scope. You should always be aware of the limitations of yourself and your weapon. More often than not, the gear will outperform the individual shooter. Clearly, this is not the case with Molon's shooting results. If anyone of us can't come close to these results with your RDS, then we to get back to the range and practice a little more on the fundamentals of rifle marksmanship and a little less on plinking.

As stated on this forum many times, it will always be the singer and not the song.

oregonshooter · #16 07-26-09, 15:31

Ok, first off that is good shooting.

Second ">" means GREATER THAN

putting a 4 MOA dot on a 6 MOA target is gonna give you the rifles accuracy if you center it nicely like the OP. Guessing that the gun can do 1/2 MOA thee is 1/2 MOA of slop in that target, again nicely done.

Percision shooting? No.

If I missed the point, then so be it. Sorry I'm not astounded by the obvious.

ballistic · #17 07-26-09, 15:46

Excellent post Molon.

One of the keys for obtaining more precision at longer distances with an Aimpoint is to turn the brightness of the dot down to a setting where it's still visible but doesn't bloom.

recon by fire · #18 07-26-09, 17:39

I think that the the Aimpoint is as accurate as iron sights. I see better results (and better accuracy) from the Aimpoint than with irons. These are results of military personnel I've trained in rifle marksmanship. I consistantly see tighter groups and higher qualification scores with the with the Aimpoint. My theory is not that the Aimpoint is any more accurate than irons, it's that it's easier to use. There is more skill required with iron sights. I know that this thread is not about a comparison of Aimpoint vs. iron sights. The reason that I bring this up is because iron sights are pretty damn accurate for a battle carbine, and the Aimpoint's accuracy is comparable. American service rifles have used iron sights for a long time. The Aimpoint is an upgrade. The M4 carbine with an Aimpoint (0x magnification) is capable of consistant hits on human sized targets out to atleast 300 meters. Here is where the Aimpoint excels. It's fast. It's as simple as that. In a close quarters gun fight the RDS is fast. Is a 10x magnified scope more accurate than an RDS? Yes. Is a 10x scope fast in a close quarters gun fight? No. That's where the ACOG bridges the gap. With training and practice a person can get pretty fast with an ACOG at short range reflexive fire. And it's long range capabilities exceed an RDS.

Great post Molon! Sorry if I went off on a tangent, just trying to support your post that an Aimpoint is a great sight.

CLHC · #19 07-26-09, 18:59

Interesting thread here I must say! Nice going!

Captains1911 · #20 07-26-09, 19:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by oregonshooter

"Precision Shooting" is obviously a subjective term. >1/4 MOA @ 100 yards is not "Precision" in my book nor >1 MOA @ 800 yards.

If a dot (4MOA or 2MOA) could make hits on 1MOA targets out to 350 yards I'd stick with it. Unfortunately you can't see 1MOA targets for sh*t at 300 yards without X3 at least.

What is you Irons group at 100yards?

Might be better to keep them zeroed at 100 and move the dot off for longer shots. The sight radius is not near as good as infinity, but you can get a more consistent hold with a post than fuzzy dot I bet.

What does this mean?