Congress Proposes Common Ground Combat Uniform

[soldiersystems]

Originally Posted by Caeser25

While we're changing uniforms let's get rid of zippers and hook and loop, go back to buttons and sewing on your patches and skill badges.

Oh those tender days of yesteryear...back when it was that way everybody wanted to be like the SOF guys and have velcro and be all swoopy.

You can read today's article on ACU improvements to understand why buttons aren't always the best answer.

http://soldiersystems.net/acu-improvements/

[merge]

Not trying to highjack the link...BUT just a tid bit on the USMC name tapes. Ever think how hard it is to get your own stuff back after the entire platoon throws their stuff in the ships laundry? Not all seperated, the entire mess altogether. Actually makes sense from that perspective. However, that said, it started after Desert Shield when the brass saw the spokesmen from different services on the news and the Marines were the only ones without name tags. I believe the Generals wanted their names prominently displayed for all to see, so here we are.

[Matt Edwards]

Soldiersystems,
Thanks for the update.

[Strike-Hold]

I enjoyed reading that article on the ACU improvements. Couldn't help but notice though that most of these "improvements" are either:
a. going back to the way things were on the BDU, or
B. copying stuff that the Marines got right the first time with the MCCUU


Personally, I MUCH prefer having velcro rather than buttons on the sleeve cuffs and shirt pockets, and a zipper/velcro front placket. For cargo pockets on the trousers, I prefer a combination of snaps and velcro - much easier to use than fiddly buttons and modern snaps are far less prone to getting gummed up with gunk and moisture.

[soldiersystems]

You know it's interesting about the snaps, but the problem is that they foul or pull through the fabric. I didn't publish the photo on the site but I will give you guys a look at what the snaps looked like on the trial uniforms.

[Strike-Hold]

I agree that snaps can pull through the fabric, or get fouled up. BUT, there are brands and types of snaps that are robust enough and have a big enough foot-print that both of these problems are mitigated. There are also ways of attaching the snaps that can help reduce the possibility of them pulling through the fabric even more - and as for cleaning, they can be quickly and easily swabbed out with a pipe-cleaner.

Granted, I haven't conducted any long-term, scientifically-validated "torture tests" to pit the reliability of snaps against buttons - but I suspect they would do well. I certainly think there's far more chance that a button will break or the thread will unravel or break in less time than a snap will become unservicable.

Personally, I have several field jackets and trousers where I've replaced the buttons with snaps (Prym Original heavy-duty type) and they've been absolutely fine. I think the reason a lot of people don't like snaps is becuase of the small, cheap-quality ones used on the old M65 field jacket.

But the best solution in my opinion (and the one I find I like the best) is a combination of snaps and velcro - as shown in the "fixed" version of Eric's ACU photo attached:

[warpigM-4]

I Like the snaps better too.The Field jackets i was issued One ACU M-65 and one BDU m-65 .the snaps on the BDU jacket felt stronger than the ACU .
I all so Hated the Hook and loop for the flag and patches if you bumped another soldier one of you would end up with 2 flags or patches on your shoulder.
the name tags always curl up on the ends .we bought sharpie laundry markers and wrote our names on the inside of our ACUs so we all got our same uniform back.

I do remember a Fat Body in the 2nd PLT ripping his crotch out doing some mountain climbers


Great thread! Thank you Soldier systems

[rugbymike]

This thing sounds gay as aids!!! Good thing I got out!!!

[DocGKR]

I was commissioned in 1986 and served in active duty and the reserves for the next 22 years, mainly in joint assignments. From 1986 up until 2003-2004 or so, it was very easy to integrate with other services, as we generally all wore the same uniform. After that, it became increasingly difficult--I ended up with field uniforms in BDU & DCU (regular and mod w/shoulder pockets & velcro), woodland & desert Marpat, UCP ACU's, and a set in Multicam for various joint assignments, not to mention the old OG107/OD's we wore in the Seabees. This is CRAZY! Oh...and for 22 years I absolutely REFUSED to illogically iron or starch any uniform designed for field use; that was reserved for professional & dress uniforms, Class A & B's--blues, khakis, whites...

There are a lot of good field uniform designs available--the last version of OG107, mod'd BDU/DCU, the current Marpat, the new revised ACU; pick one and issue it in an appropriate camo pattern (ie. NOT UCP). The 2004 Natick data on testing 13 different camo patterns for Army use in urban, desert, and woodland environments was quite clear--the top performer was clearly Desert All Over Brush, followed by Woodland Track, and Scorpion/Multicam (note that Marpat was not tested).

If Congress really is serious about picking a new field uniform, the path forward is simple; have an independent party, for example a refunded Congressional OTA, the OMB, FBI, or even DOD IG conduct a rapid, comprehensive comparison test of four different proven uniform designs (OG107, mod'd BDU/DCU, the current Marpat, the new revised ACU) and four different proven camo patterns (Desert All Over Brush, Woodland Track, Multicam, and Marpat, or perhaps the Mirage). After 3-6 months of testing and analysis, Congress can pick the best uniform pattern and camo design and require its adoption and issue by all U.S. services for field use.

Done deal and then folks can get on with what they are supposed to be doing--warfighting, not fashion design.

[TehLlama]

Simply put, we're not going into combat zones without body armor for the forseeable future, so new uniforms will need to accomodate this, along with provisions for fire and NBC protection.
I could see the need for garrison blouses, and wearing the rest of the combat uniform ensemble everyday.

Doc pointed out just how inane starching a camouflage uniform is. I fully agree.
To date the only part of the ensemble that anybody really got right was the boots, though it took the AF most of a decade to catch on.

Seeing each pattern side by side on people (something rarely done by proponents of UCP) really gives away where it's lacking - it isn't that terrible, but they could just as easily do better for the same price. I'm not sure it's worth dumping UCP outright just yet, but if they have to adopt an AF like strategy of using an alternate combat uniform (MultiCam, All-Over Desert Brush) for use in the two current major theatres.

Details:
The buttons on our uniforms work, plain and simple. I'd like the addition of shock cord w/ keepers on the cargo pockets, pen pockets on the sleeves. Some sewn-in loops to retain knee/elbow pads would be worth looking at,
Pile tape has its uses, but for the few jobs where sanitizing uniforms is necessary, it's not worth that effort for everybody else.
Further crotch reinforcement is a must. I've gotten very proficient at re-sewing mine with my magical boot camp kit, but I shouldn't have to do this so often. Our MCCCU is better than ACU, but still needs improvement.

[carolvs]

AF makes an interesting example as only PJs, CCTs, and DAGRE get issued real camo (MC) and everyone else wears the fashion digicam or nomex. It begs the question of why is anyone issued camo if they aren't ground combat troops? Instead of three color camo for everyone as with the ACU, wouldn't it make more sense to put the 90% that aren't in front-line combat into OD or khaki, and then get the best camo that money can buy for the 10% that are in primary danger of being in enemy sights? Why pay for camo for those who don't need it? Am I missing something?

[soldiersystems]

Originally Posted by carolvs

AF makes an interesting example as only PJs, CCTs, and DAGRE get issued real camo (MC) and everyone else wears the fashion digicam or nomex. It begs the question of why is anyone issued camo if they aren't ground combat troops? Instead of three color camo for everyone as with the ACU, wouldn't it make more sense to put the 90% that aren't in front-line combat into OD or khaki, and then get the best camo that money can buy for the 10% that are in primary danger of being in enemy sights? Why pay for camo for those who don't need it? Am I missing something?

I think the real problem with this concept is the notion that there are folks who don't need it. Who is to say that for sure, Snuffy will never need it. If he is going to bad places, he MAY, so why not just outfit him.

[Navigating Collapse]

Originally Posted by carolvs

AF makes an interesting example as only PJs, CCTs, and DAGRE get issued real camo (MC) and everyone else wears the fashion digicam or nomex. It begs the question of why is anyone issued camo if they aren't ground combat troops? Instead of three color camo for everyone as with the ACU, wouldn't it make more sense to put the 90% that aren't in front-line combat into OD or khaki, and then get the best camo that money can buy for the 10% that are in primary danger of being in enemy sights? Why pay for camo for those who don't need it? Am I missing something?

Dude, that would just make TOO much sense.

I would argue that the "branding/fashion" aspects of the uniform are for recruiting purposes only, IMHO. Kind of like when the Rangers got a massive kick in the nut-sack.

[carolvs]

"Snuffy," LOL.

I see what you're saying. It just seems like those who hold the purse strings end up cheapening the final product and reducing its effectiveness because they have to buy a million camo uniforms for everybody, instead of a hundred thousand just for the ground combat troops. As long as the guys who need it most get the best possible camo, I don't have anything against giving Snuffy a set too , though I suspect that whatever camo is chosen for Afghanistan, that REMF at the Pentagon will be wearing it first even though they won't be getting any closer to the battlespace than a video screen on this side of the Atlantic.

[TehLlama]

Originally Posted by soldiersystems

I think the real problem with this concept is the notion that there are folks who don't need it. Who is to say that for sure, Snuffy will never need it. If he is going to bad places, he MAY, so why not just outfit him.

Goes back to the AirForce starching the hell out of their BDU's, making them 100% unserviceable uniforms. They'll go back to starching uniforms.
At that point, what legitimate combat-related argument is there for issuing camouflage uniforms to REMF staff?

I think there needs to be a separate uniform for use with body armor (there already de facto is), and this needs to be latest and greatest that is practical within budget and counter-fratricide means.
Everybody else can use something much cheaper, simpler, and use that for inspections, garrison use, or use in high density classes.
Everybody in active combat zones needs to have the latest proven equipment that works, and the system needs to revolve around that. It doesn't right now, and that's why this discussion has gone for pages.

I understand the branding complaints, and simplification of supply and logistics - but the only garrison use utility uniform stuff I'm taking with me are my personally purchased boots!

[soldiersystems]

I wrote about separate garrison and combat uniforms back in 1994. 15 years later we still don't have them.

[Rogue7a]

I think it is the best idea in a while. All of you are blind to the fact of what it takes to sustain this crap (MARPAT, UCP, AF Tiger, Navy "Grease-Flage"). We all use to wear the same uniform. It's all the big purple world of "Jointness". Think it's BS? Well SOCOM is joint. Yep, no matter if you're SF, SEAL, Para Rescue, MARSOC or a Ranger you all get issued a SFLCS kit. And oh my God AOR1 & 2 are in the chute! Personally I am just going to sit back, eat my popcorn and watch the fur fly lol

[soldiersystems]

Don't hold your breath expecting to see all of SOCOM in those patterns. As of right now it is not going to happen.

[Rogue7a]

AOR1 & 2 are intended to be combat uniforms only. You are not going to see Army, Navy, Air Force or Marine personnel assigned to SOCOM running around in them in garrison. I am pretty sure there is only one of us here who has been to the uniform shop at Natick and seen what is in the works. You have a lot of good info but you are subject to what industry tells you. And that is not always accurate. Case in point, you posted the following piece on a joint Eagle and Down East Inc pack called the demonstrator (http://soldiersystems.net/tag/down-east/) now I can tell you that the system in question was indeed looked at, but it was not purchased in quantity greater than 1 and I am pretty sure that the one pictured is THE one. So if what you're saying is that SOCOM will not be running around in thier own pattern, trigger pulleys and support you are correct. However, what you failed to grasp in the post is that in general all SOCOM units have commonality in equipment and that the failure of the conventional military to do the same makes it a nightmare for sustainment etc. All this service specific stuff is an unecessary expense on our funding line. I seem to remember a time when ALICE and woodland was the norm for everyone. Plus I can't wait until the Marines have to give up MARPAT to the other services. People will lose thier minds down the hall lol

[carolvs]

Originally Posted by Rogue7a

Plus I can't wait until the Marines have to give up MARPAT to the other services. People will lose thier minds down the hall lol

Do you forsee MARPAT becoming the standard pattern for Afghanistan?