Cutting fat & gaining muscle mass at the same time?

[QuickStrike]

I've always heard that is it much easier to:

Simply focus on bulking up and not care about gaining a little extra fat

or

Focus mostly on slimming down & cutting fat while trying to maintain muscle


I know that one can probably do both at the same time, but aren't they conflicting and the results delayed?

[Mr.Goodtimes]

a lot of this depends on your body type. you can do whats referred to as a "lean bulk" where you eat enough to gain muscle and stay energetic, but gain minimal to no fat.

I've pretty much been on a constant lean bulk for about the past two years. I'm staying lean while also slowly gaining muscle, and loosing fat, a little bit at a time.

If you cut hard enough, and try to get your body fat real low, you WILL loose muscle, and you will get weaker, thats just how it is. if you wanna gain muscle and strength on a cutting diet, then prosteroids/steroids are about the only way to do it.

When i used to try and cut, within a couple days i would begin to feel weaker, my muscles would feel as "full" and while i was losing fat, i was also losing muscle.

It's very possible to stay lean while bulking, you just have to make sure that you eat the right foods. You might put on 10lbs of muscle in a year or so vs. 15... but you also wont have 10lbs of fat to lose when your done, and you wont be ashamed to take your shirt off either.

[jwinch2]

Originally Posted by QuickStrike

I've always heard that is it much easier to:

Simply focus on bulking up and not care about gaining a little extra fat

or

Focus mostly on slimming down & cutting fat while trying to maintain muscle


I know that one can probably do both at the same time, but aren't they conflicting and the results delayed?

You heard correctly. There is a reason that bodybuilding has an off season and a competition season. The signaling processes at the cellular level which allow for protein synthesis versus lipolysis and the stimulus from an exercise standpoint required to initiate them are polar opposites. Furthermore the hormonal response needed to initiate satellite cell response which is what leads to muscular adaptation require synthesis from low density lipoprotein cholesterol which is primarily derived from animal fats. Not taking in significant amounts of what are typically considered "bad" fats is going to lead to an attenuated protein synthesis response. Taking in enough kilocalories in the first place to provide the substrate for training adaptation and the proper lipoproteins to generate the hormones needed for adaptation makes it very difficult to drop significant amounts of fat.

If you periodize your program effectively from a training as well as nutritional standpoint you will make far better gains in both lean muscle building as well as body fat reduction in a years time if you split them up into cycles rather than trying to train for everything at once. Can you make gains that way? Yes of course you can. However, it will not be nearly as effective as taking a systematic approach and training those things separately.

I would encourage you to seek out a qualified professional to help you, much the way you would for any other form of training. PM me if you are interested and I can help find someone near you depending on where you live.

Cheers,

[bjw182005]

It's not really possible to bulk train AND cut fat at the same time. A bulk training regimen requires that you take in many many time more calories to ensure that your muscles are receiving all the nutrients they need to grow to maximum potential. In order to get really lean, your diet has to be cut by almost 1/4 to 1/2. You want to make sure that you are still getting a good caloric intake, but you want to be more picky about what youre eating. Cardio is king during this time. It's generally much harder to cut down than it is to bulk up. The transition from eat everything in sight, to almost starving yourself is sometimes too much for most people to deal with. It takes a complete commitment of time to acheive the results you really want.

[QuickStrike]

1. My plan is to jog on incline for 30-45 minutes 1st thing in the morning to burn calories/cardio

2. Protein shake right after to maintain muscle mass

3. Lift at the gym a few hours later

4. Protein shake again

This will stay the same for my bulking or slimming months, because I still need cardio for mma + sprinting and doing bag work, etc.

I'll just eat reasonably clean and up the calories a lot, while still avoiding excessive fat during bulking.

And eat super clean, with way less calories when slimming down.

Lifting and protein intake will probably stay about the same...

[Azul]

Does the mantra "you cant slim and bulk up at the same time" mean that people who are trying to lose weight should not do some sort of resistance training, such as weight lifting in addition to cardio?

You can talk to one person and say, weight lifting will help you burn fat because adding muscle mass increases the base amount of calories your body uses per dayal.

You can talk to another person and they will say "cardio, cardio, cardio!" and they will reason that you cannot expect to build muscle without increasing caloric intake, which is counterintuitive to caloric restriction diets.

[BushmasterFanBoy]

Originally Posted by Azul

Does the mantra "you cant slim and bulk up at the same time" mean that people who are trying to lose weight should not do some sort of resistance training, such as weight lifting in addition to cardio?

You can talk to one person and say, weight lifting will help you burn fat because adding muscle mass increases the base amount of calories your body uses per dayal.

You can talk to another person and they will say "cardio, cardio, cardio!" and they will reason that you cannot expect to build muscle without increasing caloric intake, which is counterintuitive to caloric restriction diets.

I'm pretty curious about this as well. I still have about 40lbs of weight loss or so to go til I hit my goal for weight loss, but I'm quite eager to start a lifting regimen. Does this mean I need to focus solely on cardio?

[QuickStrike]

Originally Posted by BushmasterFanBoy

I'm pretty curious about this as well. I still have about 40lbs of weight loss or so to go til I hit my goal for weight loss, but I'm quite eager to start a lifting regimen. Does this mean I need to focus solely on cardio?

A beginning lifter will see relatively HUGE gains in muscle in the first year or two, and this increase in muscle will in turn help burn more calories overall, so it's win/win for you IMO.

You are doing good.

Just add a reasonable lifting routine + treadmill work, and you're set.

Oh, and you don't even really have to run much for burning calories. Just set the treadmill at a reasonable incline and power-walk at a brish speed that you can maintain for about 45 minutes.

Wear good shoes!

Fake edit: Also, you will be gaining muscle, which I think weighs more than fat... You might not get to your desired weight quickly because of this...

But SCREW THE SCALE! IMO I think gauging yourself in the mirror and in your actual level of performance, is a better way to measure progress than some set number.

Just IMO.

[Azul]

Originally Posted by QuickStrike

But SCREW THE SCALE! IMO I think gauging yourself in the mirror and in your actual level of performance, is a better way to measure progress than some set number.

Count the pants sizes lost. Muscle Mass is much more dense than the fat its "replacing".

[spankaveli]

I did, for about a year and a half, way more weight lifting than cardio and i lost 118bs in about 12 months. you definitely get stronger but that could be more cardiovascular than actual muscle gain.

of course, i've gained 60% of that back but i'm working on getting back down and further. it's purely mental and if you can make yourself eat correctly you can do it.

[militarymoron]

Originally Posted by Azul

Does the mantra "you cant slim and bulk up at the same time" mean that people who are trying to lose weight should not do some sort of resistance training, such as weight lifting in addition to cardio?

i don't think so. i've always viewed that as more of a 'specialized' statement for people who are already in pretty good shape, but looking to take their physique a step further by putting on a few pounds of muscle while cutting up.
for the average person who just wants to get to 'pretty good shape' from 'out of shape', it's a different goal, and i see no harm with resistance training in addition to cardio, to build strength and tone.

while i haven't really seen many people 'slim down and bulk up' (they were either slim already then added muscle, or were chubby and lost fat), i've seen overweight people 'slim down and tone up' what muscle they had by doing both cardio and weights.

[Cascades236]

You can definitely gain mass while maintaining or even losing body fat %. The gains probably won't be as quick as if you were doing bulking and cutting sessions, but lifting weights with the goal of adding size doesn't have to be a rollercoaster ride of calorie hording and starvation.

[QuickStrike]

Originally Posted by militarymoron

i don't think so. i've always viewed that as more of a 'specialized' statement for people who are already in pretty good shape, but looking to take their physique a step further by putting on a few pounds of muscle while cutting up.

+1. I started this thread because I wanted to get my abs to show more, while gaining some more muscle mass/definition. Have been lifting for years and am in okay shape.

for the average person who just wants to get to 'pretty good shape' from 'out of shape', it's a different goal, and i see no harm with resistance training in addition to cardio, to build strength and tone.

while i haven't really seen many people 'slim down and bulk up' (they were either slim already then added muscle, or were chubby and lost fat), i've seen overweight people 'slim down and tone up' what muscle they had by doing both cardio and weights.

Another +1, and the increased muscle one gets from lifting will probably help keep the fat off.

I'm starting to think that naturally skinny people are more likely to be "hard-gainers" when bulking also. Maybe being naturally chunky is a blessing (which I don't have lol).

[Iraq Ninja]

We got a few strong, fat people over here in the gyms. Most of them have poor cardio and thus poor combat fitness.

Then there are the folks who are into cosmetic reasons vs. combative reasons for being in the gym. I think it is a matter of priorities based on your situation. I for one have no desire to be any bigger, just fitter. I don't like being a big target...

[QuickStrike]

Originally Posted by Iraq Ninja

We got a few strong, fat people over here in the gyms. Most of them have poor cardio and thus poor combat fitness.

Then there are the folks who are into cosmetic reasons vs. combative reasons for being in the gym. I think it is a matter of priorities based on your situation. I for one have no desire to be any bigger, just fitter. I don't like being a big target...

Just assembled the treadmill so my cardio should improve soon.

I don't want to get too much bigger, just 10-15 more pounds would be awesome.

My slimming down goal is just for looks and kinda useless now that I've thought about it..

[DevL]

I have found that if you are eating horribly, not lifting, and not running you can increase cardio, strength, and mscle mass all while cutting fat when you first start training. This is partly because you are new to exercise and partly becasue you are just SO out of shape. After the intial success it becomes very difficult across the board to make progress.

I have also found that it might take me a YEAR to gain 5 pounds of muscle BUT if I lose that muscle I can get it back very quickly. Breaking new ground on muscle gains is aggonisingly hard at a more advanced stage when you are reaching those gains for the first time. Once I have been at that muscle level before I can regain muscle like crazy in a very short time frame.

Once you get down to about 10% body fat reducing your fat further becomes much more difficult and slow (at least for me it does). It ends up hurting your strength and your cardio to cut below 10% and try to do it quickly. Perhaps if you had months and months to drop 2% you could hold your strength and increase your cardio but not if you want to do it in say 2 weeks. Cutting fat hurts performance in the short run.

I did some before and after photos 100 days apart during a contest when I had let myself go if you care to see them. I actually was within 3 pounds of my initial weight at the end... just turned all the fat weight to muscle weight. This much of a transformation required 2 months of straight bulking with no thought of dieting to reach the needed strength and muscle levels. I crash dieted away the last 12-15 pounds of fat in a month. I will say regardless of muscle size and definition and all the cardio I did I was in the worst physical condition of my life at that point from the dieting... slow at running, weak, exhausted all the time. However, there was no way I could have come that far in that short of a time trying to do it all at once in a half assed fashion.

You will never be able to reach your maximum potential if you dont bulk and then cut nor will you make any strength/muscle gains if you dont stop worrying about fat.

[QuickStrike]

Originally Posted by DevL

......

Interesting. Thanks for posting. My body fat is somewhere around 12% or so now, according to this crappy plastic caliper that I don't know how to use... Maybe 14% is more realistic.

Yah, so it looks like I'll be trying to bulk up as much as I can in the next 6 months. I'll still try to eat reasonably clean though.

[dookie1481]

From: http://monkeyisland.lylemcdonald.com...ad.php?t=12305

Gaining muscle while losing fat: The Newbie effect
Ok, since this seems to come up with some regularity, here are my thoughts on it. I had made a post to mfw a long time bck but it's faster to just retype it here than try to dig through google groups.

The basic question that continues to come up is "How come newbies can gain muscle and lose fat but more advanced guys can't."

First and foremost, I want to point out that only fat newbies can accomplish this, lean guys are not going to lean out significantly while gaining muscle. And I think this points us partly in the right direction.

Way back when, when I first got on the track of leptin (oh, about 98 I think), a lot of what leptin was doing (and note that leptin is related to bodyfat levels) seemed to explain at least part of this. Leptin turned out to be the big missing middle puzzle piece that I"d been looking for for about 10 years.

So consider a fat untrained individual. Because of all of the bodyfat they are carrying, there are a bunch of adapations that have occurred which, given the right stimulus, is going to make them *more effectively* mobilize fat for fuel. I know I"ve discussed this before but now expect a zillion and one questions.

But when you look at that actual adaptations in terms of whole body (especially fat cell) insulin resistance, it's clear that they occur in an attempt to limit further fat gain/help with fat loss once the excess calories are removed. The fat cells are resistant to insulin (meaning insulin can't be anti-lipolytic) leptin would be limiting food intake if the brain weren't resistant, leptin is trying to push fatty acid oxidation (except that muscle is alos resistant), there are tons of fatty acids n the bloodstream just waiting to be burned, &c. So even in the face of high insulin or whatever, fatty acids can be mobilize for fuel.

Read that last sentence again, especially given the role of insulin in muscle growth.

So I think that's the first part of the story. The body is primed to use a lot of fat for fuel under those conditions. Going back to 98, this is actually what led me to leptin, trying to figure out why fatter people can lose fat with less LBM loss compared to lean. So I started looking at the differences physiologically in fat people vs. lean people. And kept coming back to leptin (which I'd been deliberately ignoring for years). Which turns out to be part (but certainly not the entire picture). But I digress.

But it's not the whole story. The other part of it and at this point I get way off into speculation land I think has to do with being relatively more untrained. Everybody knows that beginners respond better to training than anybody else. Primarily because they are so far from their genetic potential. They have more 'room to grow' to put it one way. This is true of everything, first year of any training is when you will make the most massive gains, unless you're training is retarded. And as you get closer to your genetic limits, things start to level off and you reach an asymptote.

And I think that the two factors together are what allow it to happen.

You're in a situation where
a. muscle can be gained quite easily
b. fat can be lost quite easily

Because both are so far below (in the case of muscle) or above (in the case of fat) genetic limits. That's on top of all the hormonal/energetic stuff going on when you're fat. The body is trying to push fatty acids away from storage and towards fat oxidation, even in the face of a relatively anabolic hormonal state.

But a fat but trained individual doesn't have both factors going no. They may have plenty of fat to lose but they don't have a ton of muscle to gain. No newbie effect.

A semi-lean but muscular individual has to drop insulin to mobilize/burn fat for fuel at any effective rate. Which limits their anabolic potential (and this is ignoring all of the stuff going on in the muscle with AMPk and protien synthesis and all that crap). They can lose fat but they can't gain muscle at the same time.

And, in a muscle gaining mode, you're in a net anabolic state anyhow. You can't lose fat and gain muscle at the same time for the most part.

Now quit asking me about this.

[htxred]

I've noticed that a lot of people try to do the whole "toning up" thing but never understand that it takes a totally different type of workout/lifestyle.

being one of those people who did rather then talk, i went from 262 down to 157 in a year's time. I noticed that from 262 to 200, all i did was walk in the treadmill and practically starved myself for that 6 months it took me to lose the weight. i still wasnt able to take my shirt off and "look good naked" because i was still "skinny fat" as they call it.

At the very prime of my accomplishment i was a solid 175 at roughly 10% BF and that was with 6 months of lifting and eating spaghetti, tuna, eggwhites, wheaties and leafy greens. i probably did less protein shakes at that time because it got to the point that i was eating because i was constantly hungry. a protein shake did nothing for my appetite a large portion of spaghetti did.

as for the lifestyle, i did all of this when i had nothing else to do but except homework for classes that i was taking online. i had all day and everyday to dedicate to this. the gym was the easy part, finding the time and money to get food, prepare food, and then eat the food was also easy because again i had no responsibilities.

now that im married, totally different story. what im trying to say is, if you want the tone look, the losing the fat and gaining muscle at the same time, its going to take twice as much work because you're trying to accomplish 2 different things. the way the body works seems complicated at first but once you figure out that you need to eat breakfast every morning, add 5 to 8 more whole food meals to that throughout the day, you'll soon realize that working out is the easy part.

and since we're doing pictures. skinny fat to 6 pack. http://tinypic.com/fjktog.jpg

[Mjolnir]

Originally Posted by QuickStrike

1. My plan is to jog on incline for 30-45 minutes 1st thing in the morning to burn calories/cardio

2. Protein shake right after to maintain muscle mass

3. Lift at the gym a few hours later

4. Protein shake again

This will stay the same for my bulking or slimming months, because I still need cardio for mma + sprinting and doing bag work, etc.

I'll just eat reasonably clean and up the calories a lot, while still avoiding excessive fat during bulking.

And eat super clean, with way less calories when slimming down.

Lifting and protein intake will probably stay about the same...

I'd drop the 30 to 45 minute jog. You will lose muscle from the slow, plodding jog due to cortisol production. You can gain cardio endurance without cardio specific work. If you wish to be fast then train fast. Explosive movements and heavy weights when you do lift. Resistance bands are fine - there is little need to lift weights to obtain the results you're looking for. Do cross training, kettle bells dumbells, wind sprints (up a hill, preferably). I dropped 12 lbs of fat and gained 5 lbs of muscle in 2 months. Protein shake for breakfast, nibble healthily all day, big salad for lunch, protein shake prior to workout and 45 grams of protein shake within 30 minutes after your workout.