Pistol tac reload - which do you use and why

[andy t]

During my first class three years ago, we were taught that if there is a need to "top off" a pistol during a "lull" in a gunfight, use a "reload with retention" technique - where a partially empty magazine is removed and stowed. A fresh magazine is then draw and loaded into the pistol. Some benefits to this technique: It's easier to manipulate one magazine at a time, especially under stress. The motion for speed load and "tactical load" are the same. There is also the notion that the original "tac reload" - where you hold both magazines in support hand - dates back to early Gunsite days of expensive 1911 magazines and gravel surface.
However, there are still trainers that advocate - sometimes with strong words - the use of classical "tac load" - where you retrieve a fully loaded magazine first, then you remove a partially full magazine and insert the full magazine into the pistol. The common theme is that your pistol is out of the fight for a shorter duration since you are not going from your waist or wherever the spare magazine is. However, given that juggling two magazines by the magwell is a rather tricky endeavor, I don't think it's much of a win over reload with retention. The only argument for "tac load" I heard that I buy is this: In a fluid situation you may loose track of how many spare magazines you have. So if you do a reload with retention, and stow your partially loaded magazine somewhere inaccesible ( behind your shirt, etc) and then, as you go to retrieve the fully loaded magazine, it's not there. You are in deep doodoo.
Still, I am more in favor of "reload with retention" technique. I wonder what other people's thoughts and techniques are.

Thanks.

[Shadow1198]

I took a class from Paul Gomez recently, and he taught the method of removing and stowing the partial mag first, then loading a new mag. I had been previously taught by friends and other more experienced shooters the older traditional method of grabbing the full mag first. I gave it an honest try in the class, and I plan on practicing the method Paul taught to give it an honest try and see what pros/cons I can find with it. I will say that I noticed with the traditional method on a single stack gun, holding both mags at once isn't a big deal and I personally prefer the traditional method. With some double stacks, and depending on a person's hand size, I can see the traditional method possibly not working too well in some situations. Just for fun, in class I had also tried out the traditional method, and actually fumbled a couple tac loads pretty badly (my fault plus I hadn't been shooting in too damn long) and didn't get positive mag insertion a few times as it was darn hot and humid and I was sweating profusely with a nicely worn in gen 2 G19. For now, I'm going to look at it as tools for the toolbox and will practice each method to determine if I should stick with one or practice both and use different ones for different guns. Personally, I do tend to prefer the traditional method as I like the idea of having those rounds in the partial mag still in the gun and ready to go should I have to engage right in the middle of a reload. I don't know if that is a realistic factor to consider, that's just the way I personally feel. One thing is for sure, no matter what method you use it sure helps keeping up with training so whatever method you use you can do well. I hadn't shot, dry practiced, or anything for probably 2 months before this class, and I felt like a total newbie afterwords. lol

[gringop]

How big are your hands and how big are your mags? Can you perform tac-loads flawlessly when tired, wet, prone, etc.

After training for years to do tac-loads, that is what I default to in competition but I also practice the RWR. I don't think there is any argument that the RWR is simpler and easier to do.

In a self-defense situation, your tactical reload should be happening when you are at a lull, behind cover or right before reholstering so I would give up a little of the speed increase I get with a tac-load for the simplicity of the RWR.

YMMV.

Gringop

[YammyMonkey]

Overall, the RWR is simpler, faster & can be adapted to more scenarios. If you train the RWR it is not a big deal to strip the mag out & toss it aside while going for the new mag if you discover it's empty or you need to get the gun running NOW because the situation changed. I'll usually try to stow an empty mag once in my rear pocket. If it won't go I drop it & get on with the reload.

Likewise, the ability to control where your spent mag ends up could be kind of a big deal. Think mag dropped on tile/linoleum/wood flooring in front of you, you step on it, slip & go for a ride. No bueno.

Part of the instruction with the RWR needs to be that if you're stowing the depleted mag you need to do so in a manner that allows you to access it again if needed. Hence the reason I usually stow in the back pocket.

[NCPatrolAR]

I practice both but prefer the classic tactical reload. With the classic method I can reinsert the partial mag in my mag carrier if working in plain clothes/off-duty. With the RWR I cant do this.

[Dave James]

We taught the "RWR" from the begining when autos where issued, but it was all ways stressed that it was done during a lull or behind cover, and we worked it during each and every requal, we did modify it a tad and alowed those who could hold the mag bases together in the palm up into the 90's, then a new Chief took over

JIMO, for those gunners' who take the art of gunfighting serious, either or when it comes to tac reloads, as you are the ones whom put in the time and training, I still run into those who believe run'em dry and then go for broke, but I have found like others that grounding empties is a sure way to take yourself or others out of the game, seen several twisted ankles do to mags in the dirt

[andy t]

Southnarc (and probably others) teaches that as part of your reload - whether speed or RWR, you always use your support hand to strip the mag out of the pistol. If doing a speed load, toss the empty mag behind you, since you are likely moving forward. This may mitigate the "slippery mag" syndrome somewhat.

[ToddG]

Like NCPatrolAR, all else being equal I'll do the traditional "tac load" because it allows me to put the saved ammo back in a pouch ... where I normally expect spare ammo to be.

When speed is an issue (i.e., playing a game) I'll do the RWR because it is definitely faster.

The reality is that I almost never do any kind of tac load. The concept of lull is totally artificial. You have no way of knowing if your "lull" will continue for the next five seconds. Tac loads work great on the range, they work great in a live fire shoothouse when no one is shooting back. Add force on force to the mix, though, and suddenly you see people are very hesitant to perform administrative actions with their guns when a BG could come around the corner at any moment. A better approach, IMHO, is to do an IPSC "speed" reload (dropping the partially loaded magazine on the ground) and then if your lull continues, bend down and pick up the spare mag once your pistol is back up and running 100%.

Of course, this changes when you're in a team environment or if you're in some unusual situation where you may have to go days or weeks without resupply.

[GrumpyM4]

If it ain't broke, don't fix it.

The purpose of a Tac re-load is to maintain your weapon in the highest state of readiness as possible while keeping the window of unavalibility as short as possible.

The traditional Tac re-load accomplishes this, regardless of the criteria one uses to decide at which point during a gunfight this technique is performed.

In my experience and opinion, dealing with multiple magazines in a single hand is a training issue, not a hand size issue unless you're a midget with little t-rex arms.

I'm 6'2" with small hands for my size (cue the dick size jokes). My 5'8" wife has the same size hands that I do, and if I can teach her these techniques properly as well as perform them myself without fumbling my G17 mags, then it's something that can be taught as a matter of muscle memory.

My question to muddy the waters a little more, is how many times has the Tac re-load actually been performed in the real world in actual gunfights? I personally have never read an AAR of a situation where a shooter engaged a target or targets, performed a Tac re-load, and then found opportunity to engage secondary targets. Perhaps I just don't read enough.

Anybody know of this actually happening? In my memory, nearly all real world gunfights that involve re-loads, involves shooting to slide lock and what we commonly refer to as a "combat reload" followed by continuing the gunfight (in the rare example where the gunfight lasts more then a few seconds).

I'm sure that with the large knowledge base of this website, this question can be answered.

[Jay_Cunningham]

Originally Posted by ToddG

The reality is that I almost never do any kind of tac load. The concept of lull is totally artificial. You have no way of knowing if your "lull" will continue for the next five seconds. Tac loads work great on the range, they work great in a live fire shoothouse when no one is shooting back.

This is about where I am currently. Very interesting.

[Gutshot John]

It seems weird that the RWR should be faster. Assuming I understood what the definitions are:

Tac-load: partial mag is ejected into support hand, support hand drops to stow partial mag, full mag is withdrawn and brought to the gun to be loaded.

RWR: support hand drops to pull full mag from pouch then returns to the gun, partial mag is ejected into the hand for retention, full mag is loaded, support hand drops to stow the retained partial mag.

You're reaching for the waist twice (once to retrieve the as opposed to just once with a conventional tac load?

I do see the tactical virtue in a RWR in that the gun is "light" for the least possible amount of time while you stow your partial but in terms of overall speed if you're gaming.

[LOKNLOD]

Originally Posted by Gutshot John

It seems weird that the RWR should be faster. Assuming I understood what the definitions are:

Tac-load: partial mag is ejected into support hand, support hand drops to stow partial mag, full mag is withdrawn and brought to the gun to be loaded.

RWR: support hand drops to pull full mag from pouch then returns to the gun, partial mag is ejected into the hand for retention, full mag is loaded, support hand drops to stow the retained partial mag.
.

I think your definitions are opposite from the OP...

"reload with retention" technique - where a partially empty magazine is removed and stowed. A fresh magazine is then draw and loaded into the pistol.

classical "tac load" - where you retrieve a fully loaded magazine first, then you remove a partially full magazine and insert the full magazine into the pistol.

[andy t]

Your definitions are reversed. The reason RWR can be faster is that there is no juggling two magazines. Depending on the technique you use, there may be some fumbling around with pulling out a partial mag and inserting the full mag.
I like The_Katar's and ToddG thoughts that the "lull" is artificial and may be changing my training to that concept.

Originally Posted by Gutshot John

It seems weird that the RWR should be faster. Assuming I understood what the definitions are:

Tac-load: partial mag is ejected into support hand, support hand drops to stow partial mag, full mag is withdrawn and brought to the gun to be loaded.

RWR: support hand drops to pull full mag from pouch then returns to the gun, partial mag is ejected into the hand for retention, full mag is loaded, support hand drops to stow the retained partial mag.

You're reaching for the waist twice (once to retrieve the as opposed to just once with a conventional tac load?

I do see the tactical virtue in a RWR in that the gun is "light" for the least possible amount of time while you stow your partial but in terms of overall speed if you're gaming.

[NCPatrolAR]

Originally Posted by GrumpyM4

If it ain't broke, don't fix it.

Anybody know of this actually happening? In my memory, nearly all real world gunfights that involve re-loads, involves shooting to slide lock and what we commonly refer to as a "combat reload" followed by continuing the gunfight (in the rare example where the gunfight lasts more then a few seconds).

I'm sure that with the large knowledge base of this website, this question can be answered.

I know of it being done at my agency, but the suspects didnt have any fight left in them so they gave up without further gun play.

[ToddG]

Originally Posted by NCPatrolAR

I know of it being done at my agency, but the suspects didnt have any fight left in them so they gave up without further gun play.

Question if you're at liberty to answer: Have any of your guys done a tac load and then fired additional rounds? From your description I'm assuming none of them has needed to rely on the "saved" mag but I'm curious as to whether any of them actually had a lull as opposed to reloading after the fight.

I'm all for topping off the gun before holstering it. To me, that's a pretty safe situation. If you feel comfortable enough to put the gun away, you have the time and calm to futz with your mags.

[NCPatrolAR]

Originally Posted by ToddG

Question if you're at liberty to answer: Have any of your guys done a tac load and then fired additional rounds? From your description I'm assuming none of them has needed to rely on the "saved" mag but I'm curious as to whether any of them actually had a lull as opposed to reloading after the fight. I'm all for topping off the gun before holstering it. To me, that's a pretty safe situation. If you feel comfortable enough to put the gun away, you have the time and calm to futz with your mags.

I dont view the fight being over, in the LE world, until the suspect is in handcuffs. In a recent case we had, officers engaged a carload of suspects that were shooting into the crowd at a club then moved to fire on the officers. The officers engaged the suspects as they rolled past, several tac loaded then chased the vehicle until it stopped. Once it stopped we (I was on scene by that point) had to pull the suspects out during a felony stop. There were two loaded pistols still in the vehicle, but the suspects (2 were hit) no longer felt like shooting at anyone.

But to get to your direct point; I dont know if anyone here, in a non-team format, has ever had to tac load and then engage more suspects. Our firearms program was lacking for a number of years and I dont recall even being taught a tac load when I went through the academy. I'll ask around and see if I can find some cases of it occuring/not occuring though.

[rob_s]

Originally Posted by Gutshot John

It seems weird that the RWR should be faster. Assuming I understood what the definitions are:

Tac-load: partial mag is ejected into support hand, support hand drops to stow partial mag, full mag is withdrawn and brought to the gun to be loaded.

RWR: support hand drops to pull full mag from pouch then returns to the gun, partial mag is ejected into the hand for retention, full mag is loaded, support hand drops to stow the retained partial mag.

You're reaching for the waist twice (once to retrieve the as opposed to just once with a conventional tac load?

I do see the tactical virtue in a RWR in that the gun is "light" for the least possible amount of time while you stow your partial but in terms of overall speed if you're gaming.

You have them backwards.

On the OP...

I do the tac-load with the pistol most times, for the reasons NC posted. I do the RWR with the carbine because I have seen too many people bumble the tac-load on the range to think that it would ever be a 100% solution under pressure.

I agree that the idea of the "lull" has gotten pretty vague, but I can think of possible applications in my own situation.

FWIW, we did a "lab" on this at drills and at our matches, and with the carbine the RWR was faster for almost all shooters unless they had many many hours with the tac-load and zero with the RWR (which was the case for at least two shooters).

It's pretty easy to see why it's faster shot-to-shot. RWR your support hand goes gun-belt-gun and the Tac-load goes gun-belt-gun-belt.

[RWK]

The "speed reload all the time" concept sounds good on paper:

• Unless it's dark and you can't see that black magazine on the black asphalt/in the tall grass/in the sand...
• Unless you're moving while reloading...
• Unless the top round is damaged or partially dislodged when the magazine lands top-down...
• Unless you damage one of the feed lips when the magazine lands top-down...
• Unless you wind up with a magazine full of dirt/sand/mud...

The "lull" is not always an artificiality. Some gunfights do take place over extended times and distances (distance, not range -- think getting out of a barrio in Mexico City...) and the people involved need every single round of ammo they can get/keep. The tactical reload has its place.

[RWK]

Originally Posted by andy t

There is also the notion that the original "tac reload" - where you hold both magazines in support hand - dates back to early Gunsite days of expensive 1911 magazines and gravel surface.

False. The "early days" were flush with plain, inexpensive USGI magazines.

Originally Posted by andy t

However, there are still trainers that advocate - sometimes with strong words - the use of classical "tac load" - where you retrieve a fully loaded magazine first, then you remove a partially full magazine and insert the full magazine into the pistol. The common theme is that your pistol is out of the fight for a shorter duration since you are not going from your waist or wherever the spare magazine is.

There are other benefits as well, which others have already mentioned.

Originally Posted by andy t

However, given that juggling two magazines by the magwell is a rather tricky endeavor...

It is...?

[Jay_Cunningham]

FWIW, when I am in a mentor role concerning carbines I don't even use the terms "tactical reload", "reload with retention", "speed reload" or anything else. I stress the concept of "managing ammunition." I do my best to impart the idea of not getting wrapped up in particulars, but to simply actively manage the ammunition on the gun.