"fighting bolt gun" thread mkII- cartridge selection

mattjmcd · #1 10-31-09, 18:31

Rather than muddy the waters of the first thread, I figure that a second thread would be better to discuss the round needed for an ideal GP/fighting bolt gun.

I am leaving 7.62x39 aside for now, since a) there aren't that many guns where it'd be an option, and b) lack of range potential, and c) accuracy.

I am kind of stuck between .223 on the low end, .243 or 6.5SE in the middle, or .308. All seem to have their pros and cons. What say you?

militarymoron · #2 10-31-09, 22:01

i'd pick .308 for its good general performance at short to middle distances, wide selection of different ammo/loads and relative availability.

JStor · #3 10-31-09, 22:40

I'd also choose .308 for the wide selection of available ammunition and components, plus in the right rifle, the 308 Winchester is very accurate. Plus it has enough punch without getting into unpleasant recoil.

Skintop911 · #4 10-31-09, 22:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by militarymoron

i'd pick .308 for its good general performance at short to middle distances, wide selection of different ammo/loads and relative availability.

Quote:

Originally Posted by JStor

I'd also choose .308 for the wide selection of available ammunition and components, plus in the right rifle, the 308 Winchester is very accurate. Plus it has enough punch without getting into unpleasant recoil.

These.

If not a .308, I'd choose another mainstreatm caliber suitable for medium to smaller large game that would pass the Walmart availability test.

Gutshot John · #5 11-01-09, 02:05

I'd invoke rob_s and say it all depends on a realistic appraisal of your requirements.

If you live in a relatively urban environment, you might be worried about overpenetration.

If you live in the middle of Alaska, it might not matter.

Assuming the "fighting" bolt action isn't going to be "fighting" griz, I'd argue that .308 and 30.06 are about as powerful as you want to get but wonder about their application for urban fighting or CQB type applications.

.223 has the virtue of being ubiquitous and very versatile across a variety of applications but loses terminal effectiveness beyond 400-500 yards. 7.62x39 is an interesting idea but doesn't bring much in terms of better range.

.243 or .270 don't really lend themselves to volume shooting but ballistically fit quite nicely in the role.

It really seems like a choice between .223 and .308.

THE FROG · #6 11-01-09, 02:28

6.5x55 Swede. Ammo is available from all the majors and the ballistics are, well, great!

mattjmcd · #7 11-01-09, 11:04

the "targets" might be mountain lion, smallish black bear, feral dogs, and feral men. "Game" might be hogs, Mule deer etc. Nothing really big.

tpd223 · #8 11-01-09, 15:43

What skintop said.

.308 or 30-06 most likely.

..... and some of these;

http://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=40203

BAC · #9 11-01-09, 20:49

That depends on what you're expecting out of the rifle, no?

I'm thinking .223 is probably too light for most of what the "fighting bolt gun" would be used for. In the Southeast, .243 and .270 are readily available; .308 is usually available, but more often sold out. There are probably more kinds of .308 available than its 6mm and 6.5mm cousins, but I wouldn't feel short-changed by the .243 and .270 hunting rounds that are readily available. Reloading data, brass and components are easy enough to get a hold of (present powder/primer shortages notwithstanding), so whatever I don't find to my liking in a store I can roll my own.

-B

Saginaw79 · #10 11-01-09, 21:05

Assuming it will have a reduced capacity, say 5 or 10 rounds most likely IMO that means a more effective cartridge.

I love my 5.56 ARs, but I also have 30 rounds on tap. With a Bolt Gun id expect more for less, as weird as that seems

For me as the ultimate fighting bolt gun in an Enfield modernized a bit, the .303 is a great cartridge, it performs like a .308 though its harder to find in the US than .308

So Id say .303/.308

jwfuhrman · #11 11-02-09, 12:30

I prefer the .30-'06 in a "fighting bolt gun". Not only is it deffinately powerful enough to stop a person, it will also put down any animal on the north american continent. I have a Rem710 in .30-'06 as a hunting rifle for my trips out west for big game, i wouldnt hesitate to use it as a fighting rifle either with the right optic.

TOrrock · #12 11-02-09, 14:09

You can walk into any mom and pop gun shop/hardware store/box store and get .30-06 or .270 Win. Almost any will also stock .308 Win.

Personally, I'd go with .308 Win.

Some bolt rifles will handle good quality "battlepack" surplus 7.62 NATO in their chambers, which is a plus.

mattjmcd · #13 11-02-09, 15:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by BAC

That depends on what you're expecting out of the rifle, no?

I'm thinking .223 is probably too light for most of what the "fighting bolt gun" would be used for. In the Southeast, .243 and .270 are readily available; .308 is usually available, but more often sold out. There are probably more kinds of .308 available than its 6mm and 6.5mm cousins, but I wouldn't feel short-changed by the .243 and .270 hunting rounds that are readily available. Reloading data, brass and components are easy enough to get a hold of (present powder/primer shortages notwithstanding), so whatever I don't find to my liking in a store I can roll my own.

-B

This is what concerns me. Online sale to CA has just taken a (future) hit, and plenty of places just can't keep .308 or .223 in ANY FLAVOR on the shelves. I can go into most stores and find zero selection of those calibers, or .22lr for that matter. Lots of places have basic loads in .30-06 and .243, though. Same with .270.

I am still thinking about this aspect of the project. I availablity (and future availability) where not an issue, I'd probably select .308.

geminidglocker · #14 11-02-09, 16:12

Okay, I can handle a .308 just fine, good choice.

Skintop911 · #15 11-02-09, 17:32

Something to consider: Most folks are going to run these guns in their compact forms, 16-20" or so. Commercially available loads are going to contain a load development and projectile selection optimized for a typical barrel length, usually 22-24". How that load will perfom in shorter variations will differ than the longer ones, and a loss of some terminal performance should be expected.

For example, if you were needing true .308 terminal performance, but were running a short gun, choosing a 30-06 or another higher velocity ~.30 calber might be a better option.

Double check your actual velocities, and consult manufacturers for thresholds in individual projectile performance. Get the right tech on the phone, and they can be very informative.

Rather than the low-recoil loads filling up dealer shelves, I'd love to see some that are optimized for barrels of 16-20".

DTHN2LGS · #16 11-03-09, 00:31

I will vote for the .308 Win. as well, it has sufficient power and is available everywhere.

Personally, I prefer the 260 Rem. as an all-around cartridge, but it is not universally available like the .308.

bluedog · #17 11-07-09, 20:38

I have a 308, but would also have liked a 7.62X39. Its too bad the FN is too heavy and has too long a bbl, and is not being currently produced.

http://www.fnhusa.com/le/products/fi...04&mid=FNM0135

frbowers · #18 11-08-09, 14:41

I built mine (pics posted in the other thread) in 30-06, but would be perfectly happy with a 308 Win and will probably have one built at some point.

voodoo96743 · #19 11-11-09, 00:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by mattjmcd

the "targets" might be mountain lion, smallish black bear, feral dogs, and feral men. "Game" might be hogs, Mule deer etc. Nothing really big.

Many states don't allow hunting with anything under .23 or maybe .24

kaiservontexas · #20 11-13-09, 03:02

I personally like the .30-06. But you said fighting, which for me means a short action rifle, and with that in mind .308win would be the best choice. Perhaps in a scout rifle configuration.