New to AR's need accuracy advice.

[rrflyer]

I'm looking at picking up my first AR. I've been shooting bolt action rifles for the last few years so naturally accuracy is a concern.

I understand that .5 MOA or less is probably unreasonable but I'm hoping to find MOA'ish performance out to 500 yards. I know that will require match ammo and thats fine.

I've been looking at JP rifles since I do shoot some carbine matches as well as some team tactical matches and JP have an incredibly loyal following in the USPSA circles.

However they have a 6 to 8 month wait.


I've bee looking at the Daniel Defense M4 as well. Seems to get good reviews but I haven't seen any real accuracy tests on this forum.

Does any one know how the DD rifles shoot?

The other option I've come up with is just building the thing up myself. Most of the time it would probably just wear iron sights but I'd likethe ability to throw a long range optic on top for steel at 400 to 600 yards.

Any links to some accuracy test would be much appreciated! I haven't found much .

Thanks guys!

[cpekz]

I would try looking into a LaRue stealth as long as you don't mind an SS bbl. I've read good reports about the accuracy of his rifles. Not sure about .5 but it should be able to maintain 1 MOA out to 500 with the right ammo.

[Belmont31R]

If you are looking for accuracy Id get a stainless barrel. Some chrome lined barrels are capable of great accuracy but they are not in the same league overall as SS barrels.

LaRue stealth uppers shoot great as do Noveske. You can get them with black coated barrels if you dont like the stainless look. Ive owned both brands of uppers and you cant go wrong with either.


And yes match ammo is a must as are good optics, and trigger puller who is capable of that accuracy as well.

[bkb0000]

here's three places you can start.. each produces barrels that'll do what you want

www.noveskerifleworks.com
www.whiteoakarmament.com
www.centurionarms.com

any one of these will end your search, but if you need more options, Denny's Guns, BCM, Larue, Rainier Arms, Sabre Defence, LMT, etc, etc, etc all produce stainless barrels that should be under, at, or near MOA.

[11Bravo]

Dan Lilja

[Failure2Stop]

Consistent 5 round 1 MOA groups at 500 yards with a .224 caliber projectile is about as probable as getting a WV Golf to 200 MPH.

If you want that kind of performance you should be looking into other platforms and projectiles.

[C4IGrant]

What are you looking to do with the AR? Home Defense? Competition? Training? Beer can shooting?

I see you say that you want it for gun games, but them mention that you are interested in the DD M4 (which is build for combat).

Your expectations for accuracy are not accurate for the AR/.223 platform.



C4

[Fontaine]

Originally Posted by C4IGrant

What are you looking to do with the AR? Home Defense? Competition? Training? Beer can shooting?

I see you say that you want it for gun games, but them mention that you are interested in the DD M4 (which is build for combat).

Your expectations for accuracy are not accurate for the AR/.223 platform.


C4

+1

There are also too many liars writing gun magazine articles and bragging on the internet about sub MOA performance with chrome lined barrels and 55 gr FMJ

[rrflyer]

Originally Posted by C4IGrant

What are you looking to do with the AR? Home Defense? Competition? Training? Beer can shooting?

I see you say that you want it for gun games, but them mention that you are interested in the DD M4 (which is build for combat).

Your expectations for accuracy are not accurate for the AR/.223 platform.



C4

Its going to used mainly for competition such as USPSA style 2 guns competitions. Some 2 man and 4 man team matches and training as well as fun steel shooting at distances to 500 and 600 yards further probably. I may even shoot some piggies with it.

The DDM4 though built as a "combat" carbine looks like it would make a fine game gun. Since reliability is the key in both. It also looks like it would make a decent tactical team match and HD weapon since thats really more of what it was designed for.

I dont think the acccuracy is out of line since lots of guys are shooting highpower ar15's open sighted at 600 yards with a bullseye of 1 moa and a 10 ring of 2 moa.

A high powered optic ought to be able to cut those groups down.

[rrflyer]

Originally Posted by Fontaine

+1

There are also too many liars writing gun magazine articles and bragging on the internet about sub MOA performance with chrome lined barrels and 55 gr FMJ

This i believe. There isn't a gun rag out there that I would consider a reliable source of information.

[bkb0000]

Originally Posted by Failure2Stop

Consistent 5 round 1 MOA groups at 500 yards with a .224 caliber projectile is about as probable as getting a WV Golf to 200 MPH.

If you want that kind of performance you should be looking into other platforms and projectiles.

whats a more realistic group expectation from a good precision stick at 500m?

[Thomas M-4]

Originally Posted by rrflyer

I'm looking at picking up my first AR. I've been shooting bolt action rifles for the last few years so naturally accuracy is a concern.

I understand that .5 MOA or less is probably unreasonable but I'm hoping to find MOA'ish performance out to 500 yards. I know that will require match ammo and thats fine.

I've been looking at JP rifles since I do shoot some carbine matches as well as some team tactical matches and JP have an incredibly loyal following in the USPSA circles.

However they have a 6 to 8 month wait.


I've bee looking at the Daniel Defense M4 as well. Seems to get good reviews but I haven't seen any real accuracy tests on this forum.

Does any one know how the DD rifles shoot?

The other option I've come up with is just building the thing up myself. Most of the time it would probably just wear iron sights but I'd likethe ability to throw a long range optic on top for steel at 400 to 600 yards.

Any links to some accuracy test would be much appreciated! I haven't found much .

Thanks guys!

MOA ish at 500 yard is about 5'' group 1/2 moa at 500 yards is 2 1/2'' group at 500 yards give or take a little not counting the wind.
A quality SPR style barrel with quality ammo and a FF hand guard should put you in the ballpark.

[rrflyer]

Originally Posted by Thomas M-4

MOA ish at 500 yard is about 5'' group 1/2 moa at 500 yards is 2 1/2'' group at 500 yards give or take a little not counting the wind.
A quality SPR style barrel with quality ammo and a FF hand guard should put you in the ballpark.

Thats what I'm thinking. 18" quality barrel with a good FF and good trigger should be good to go for my purposes.

I just talked with Larue Tactical and they said they are holding sub-moa with there stealth uppers out to 500.

I may just end up picking one of those up.

[SGT D USMC]

As mentioned above a free floating hand guard is needed. I would use a 20 inch quality heavy barrel with a twist rate that would stabulize a 75 gr bullet and I also would not use a telascoping stock. Also don't be fooled by the iron sights on the nra hi power ar 15's (note this is not a ar 15 service rifle) they will group very near to what an optic sight will group.

Why not buy 2 because the one set up to shoot 1 moa at 500yd and make good hits at 600 will probably have to be a special purpose rifle.

[rrflyer]

Originally Posted by SGT D USMC

Why not buy 2 because the one set up to shoot 1 moa at 500yd and make good hits at 600 will probably have to be a special purpose rifle.

Because the point and hope is to have one rifle that will do both. If I wanted two uppers I could just have kept my .308 bolt gun and bought an AR. But I hate having stuff sitting around thats not getting used and I wasn't getting to shoot the .308 out at the longer distances much.

So I sold it and decided on .223 for cost and gaming ability.

I'd also like to keep barrel length at 18" max for the matches as it just seems really more maneuverable than a 20"

I figure i have two ways to go about it.

Buy a DD and throw an optic on top. See how it shoots. I would hope a gun this spendy would be able to hold 1 to 1.5 inch groups at 100 with match ammo. If it doesn't pull the barrel and replace it with a match one from White Oak Armament for about 275 bucks. That would give me iron sights and an optic to start. The only problem is the fixed front sight may not clear my current bases so a scope would be unusable right now.........

The second is to buy the DDm4 see how it shoots. Sell the DDM4 upper and use it to buy the Larue Upper if its not what I'm hoping.

My other is just to buy a Larue Tactical upper and a lower. Like a Spikes complete for 250. I'd have about 1500 in that setup and its pretty much guarunteed to do what i'd like. But I'd have no irons to play with and the lower with the DD seems like a much nicer deal.

In short I'm still undecided.

I really wish the DD rifle came with a solid 12" rail and set of folding irons but I understand the desire for a fixed front and solid rear BUIS on a fighting carbine.

[Failure2Stop]

Keep in mind that shooting 1 MOA groups at 100, 200, or 300 yards will not guarantee 1 MOA groups at 500. Especially if you are following the conventions of accuracy measurement with either 10 round groups or overlaind consecutive 5 round groups. The realities of precision are much different than those espoused by gun writers and manufacturers, especially when environmental elements are introduced to the equation. Shooting 1 MOA at 500 yards is not only a measure of ammunition and barrel, but in the shooter's ability to read and apply wind to a degree most people cannot fathom due to their lack of reference.

With a quality barrel and ammunition, 1.5 to 2 MOA at 500 is reasonable for consistent, consecutive 5 round groups. Ask honest, competant guys how many MOA or SUB-MOA groups they have shot with an AR at 500. Like I said, it does happen, but to say that the gun is a 1 MOA gun, it has to do it consistently. It is rare.

The way High-Power guns are built is different than how a dead-nuts reliable AR would be built, and both are different than how an SPR would be built. Successful shooting in the events described will be helped more by a SPR type approach.

[rrflyer]

Originally Posted by Failure2Stop

Keep in mind that shooting 1 MOA groups at 100, 200, or 300 yards will not guarantee 1 MOA groups at 500. Especially if you are following the conventions of accuracy measurement with either 10 round groups or overlaind consecutive 5 round groups. The realities of precision are much different than those espoused by gun writers and manufacturers, especially when environmental elements are introduced to the equation. Shooting 1 MOA at 500 yards is not only a measure of ammunition and barrel, but in the shooter's ability to read and apply wind to a degree most people cannot fathom due to their lack of reference.

With a quality barrel and ammunition, 1.5 to 2 MOA at 500 is reasonable for consistent, consecutive 5 round groups. Ask honest, competant guys how many MOA or SUB-MOA groups they have shot with an AR at 500. Like I said, it does happen, but to say that the gun is a 1 MOA gun, it has to do it consistently. It is rare.

The way High-Power guns are built is different than how a dead-nuts reliable AR would be built, and both are different than how an SPR would be built. Successful shooting in the events described will be helped more by a SPR type approach.

I completely agree that human factors quickly become as important as the rifle once you start stretching a cartridges distance. Reading the wind, Density altitude, making reliable/consistent ammunition all play huge parts in longer distance shooting. Even in bolt guns where a .5 or .75 MOA gun at 100 is run of the mill factory available many guys have problems holding that.

However thats all things a person can work on/towards. However sluffing all that off and saying that 4 MOA is acceptable for a "fighting gun" or something similiar is BS in my eyes. And certainly saying that the .223 is incapable of reaching that distance is also bs as there are guys stretching it to 1,000 yards.

I'm not saying im a great rifle shooter.....far from it. I've got a ton to learn especially with irons at distance but i'm not going to allow my rifle to be my excuse.

I look forward to finally figuring out what I'm going to do and giving a report on it.

It appears the consensus is that an SPR type rifle is the ticket.

[RogerinTPA]

Originally Posted by rrflyer

I'm looking at picking up my first AR. I've been shooting bolt action rifles for the last few years so naturally accuracy is a concern.

I understand that .5 MOA or less is probably unreasonable but I'm hoping to find MOA'ish performance out to 500 yards. I know that will require match ammo and thats fine.

I've been looking at JP rifles since I do shoot some carbine matches as well as some team tactical matches and JP have an incredibly loyal following in the USPSA circles.

However they have a 6 to 8 month wait.


I've bee looking at the Daniel Defense M4 as well. Seems to get good reviews but I haven't seen any real accuracy tests on this forum.

Does any one know how the DD rifles shoot?

The other option I've come up with is just building the thing up myself. Most of the time it would probably just wear iron sights but I'd likethe ability to throw a long range optic on top for steel at 400 to 600 yards.

Any links to some accuracy test would be much appreciated! I haven't found much .

Thanks guys!

It can be done, as others have stated, with an SPR, or complete match grade 20" barrel Camp Perry tricked out AR, and maybe a match Recce AR, with a variable power scope. The other half of the equation is ammo selection, since not all match ammo is created equal (The best match ammo is hand loaded to provide consistency and you can vary your powder charge), an individual's skill level and environmental conditions, which you mentioned, and the ability to read and adjust to them, to consistently hit targets with the degree of accuracy you're looking for (Match Grade). Unfortunately, no one weapon can do it all very well (tactical utility and consistent high accuracy). I would go for a Recce build, with a match barrel, trigger, iron sights, which would give you the portability and utility of a carbine, while giving you good results out to 400ish meters. Maybe an match grade, tricked out, 3 gun type competition AR weapon may be what you're really looking for, but there comes a point of diminishing returns, as to practicality, functionality, utility and cost, to get where you want to go.

[uwe1]

Originally Posted by rrflyer

Thats what I'm thinking. 18" quality barrel with a good FF and good trigger should be good to go for my purposes.

I just talked with Larue Tactical and they said they are holding sub-moa with there stealth uppers out to 500.

I may just end up picking one of those up.

Here are two 5 shot groups at 100 yards from my DDM4 (non-CHF barrel) during my last range trip. I was sighting it in with a Bushnell Elite 3200 3-10x (scope is set at 10x with these shots). The cartridges were Hornady TAP LEO .223 75 gr. (orange/red boxes). The rifle was stabilized using a Grippod (I haven't gotten around to making some sandbags). The trigger is the stock trigger.

I am fairly new to AR15s. To date I have probably expended under 2000 rounds, but I try to get out at least twice a month to either practice shooting drills or targets. If you are a more accomplished shooter, you will definitely have better groups then I did, but even this relatively new trigger puller got about 1.25 MOA performance out of this gun. That one flyer I am almost positive, that the shot broke right when the crosshairs drifted to the right. I had a fair number of 3 shot groups, all of which were under 1", but those aren't as statistically representative of performance as 10-shot groups.

http://www.m4carbine.net/attachment....1&d=1259248714

http://www.m4carbine.net/attachment....1&d=1259248714

I think that the DDM4 is more than adequate for my requirements, but if you are trying to get 1 MOA at 500, I would agree with the other guys and tell you to look into a Larue Stealth or Noveske.

[seb5]

Some of my opinions and observations accuracy and the AR platform are as follows. I am considered better than average by me peers but don't consider myself an exceptional rifle shot at all. When I attended my states basic law enforcement sniper many years ago I built my rifle and was initially looked at with disdain by my class mates. Every one of them were sporting .308 bolt guns, mostly tricked out Remingtons, and a pair of Savages. I showed up with my AR. I used all the right parts, Kreiger 20" tube, JP single stage trigger set at 3 lb's, an a Leupold Mk. 4. I made believers out of them. We shot to 600 during that class and I found the mark at 400 consistently, 500 regularly, and 600 occasionally. I know that there are better shooters that can do much more than I.

I have shot sub MOA groups with a DDM4, 3X ACOG, and 55 FMJ. It is not common, very rare, and all it really means is the stars and moon lined up the night before! I have found that MOA is attainable out to 400 very regularly, 500 occasionally. I have shot AR's at 1000 on several occasions and most of the time it is an exercise in futility. I know the Camp Perry types can do amazing things with the platform but we know that is a specialized weapon and exceptional shooter.

I will throw this out there not as gospel, but you can take it to the bank. If someone says they are consistently shooting MOA at 500 with an AR platform and they do not have a solid rest or bipod, excellent trigger, match barrel, match ammo, decent scope, and some long range experience as far as atmospheric conditions (wind, humidity, temp. etc.), then they are a liar.