hammer forged barrel or not

moonshot · #1 01-21-10, 22:31

I'm sure this has been addressed somewhere on this forum, but my search did not turn up what I wanted.

I have a BCM 16" middy, and I'm looking at adding another. Now I see I have a choice - the same as I bought before or, for an additional $100, I can get a cold hammer forged barrel.

I'm no expert, but I've always heard this production method was superior, but that is in pistols. I know even less about rifles.

What do I gain with this barrel? I've read of increased accuracy, but I'm not good enough (yet) to realize the full potential of my existing BCM rifle. I've also heard of longer barrel life, but I doubt I can afford to shoot out the barrel I have now.

I don't need the best on the block, but it's only $100 (on the other hand, $100 would buy a few more mags, or a CTR stock).

What's the consensus?

6933 · #2 01-21-10, 22:50

What are your intentions with the rifle?

moonshot · #3 01-21-10, 23:18

That's a really good question. The simple answer is as a self-defense rifle. The more complete answer would be as a spare to my existing AR15, to be used for training, recreation, and to be available for any appropriate defensive use - from home invasion to vacation travel (trunk rifle) to civil unrest to societal breakdown to TEOTWAWKI.

I require the most reliable and durable rifle I can afford. I've been very happy with my BCM middy, and another tier-1 rifle seems like a good idea.

I don't doubt the barrel is better, and I don't doubt it's worth the extra money. I just don't know what I get with a hammer forged barrel that is missing from the non-hammer forged barrel.

$100 won't buy much extra ammo, or pay for much of another class. It would buy a CTR stock, a few more Pmag's, cover most of a spare BCG, or take the family out for a really nice dinner. Or it could buy a cold hammer forged barrel.

Col_Crocs · #4 01-21-10, 23:18

What are your plans for this second rifle? Use, config, specs... etc... Is this going to be a clone of your existing gun which, if I may assume, you plan on training with and the second one being for home defense? Or is it going to be an entirely new build and config?
Personally Id go for Hammer forged, simply for the reason that I already have the standard one to begin with. With that said, if not to be a clone of your training gun, Id look into other lengths which may suit your purpose better.

moonshot · #5 01-22-10, 01:07

Both rifles are to be configured the same. Same barrel length, same sights, same everything. Each rifle serves as a backup to the other, with the same handling and skill set for each.

Barrel production method might vary, but operationally, all things the same.

APD201 · #6 01-22-10, 01:09

Not worth it, another way to look at it is there are who knows how many American soldiers and LE's using non hammer forged and they work just fine for them in much harsher conditions everyday.

BWT · #7 01-22-10, 01:30

Similar boat. I want a BCM Mid-Length AR-15 Carbine built ASAP, but, I'm also a college student, so that means delays... But, to cut to the chase.

Quote:

On 12-24-09 I contacted Pat Rogers to see what the current round count of the BCM 16" Mid-Length that he has been loaning out to students. Pat refers to this BCM Mid-Length as "Filthy 14" and provided me with the following information on this gun:

"Filthy #14 is the most used, and has (as 12-24-09) 28905 rounds down range. The barrel is original. It has never had a brush put through it. -At 16,400 rounds bolt lug cracked. Replaced the bolt carrier group

-At approximately 26,000 rounds fired a 5 shot 50m group that went into 0.5". This might not be that tight at 100 meters.

-At 26,450 rds had 3 failures to extract. Replaced BCG and cleaned gun for the first time

We use only SLip2000 EWL for lube and Slip 2000 725 to clean.

**All of the rounds were fired during class (at the rate of approximately 1,250 rounds every 3 days)**

I do not recommend allowing the gun to go this long without PM (preventive maintenance). However, we wanted to see how far we could take this particular gun (#14) without being burdened by the myth of meticulous cleaning."

Keep in mind the punishment that Pat Rogers' BCM mid-length has been put through. The gun is being shot approximately 8 hours a day in a tactical training class environment at the rate of approximately 1,250 rounds every 3 days. Very few people have the time, money, or effort to run a gun like that for 28,905 rounds. This upper has the standard barrel, not the new BFH (cold hammer forged) barrel.

Taken from this Article posted by USMC03,

On this website.

http://www.03designgroup.com/reviews...ower-receivers

That article, his experience, the experience I've seen on this forum, and (ETA: It wasn't posted by Pat Rogers, it was communicated to USMC03, wanted to correct that) experience by Pat Rogers with that loaner gun, has pretty much put my mind at ease for my plan to purchase a BCM Mid Length Upper without the CHF barrel.

I wonder what it'd shoot like if it was cleaned. It's a good read.

So is rob_s' but that's not really about the barrel longevity.

http://www.tacticalyellowvisor.net/8343/59827.html

Both are overall reviews of the BCM Midlength carbine, pretty much told me everything I needed to know.

seb5 · #8 01-22-10, 10:43

I would not pay more for one. How many barrels have you shot out? It just doesn't happen often. I wouldn't mind having one but for the dollars I'd just go ahead and get a good SS barrel if you were concerned about accuracy. CHF certainly isn't new, just to AR's. I understand its minor advantages but don't see what all the hoopla is about it.

Keesh · #9 01-22-10, 13:34

Not worth it. You won't see a noticeable increase in accuracy and there are more important things to spend your money on since you already have a nice new rifle. While you may have a slightly longer barrel life with a CHF, if you ever do end up shooting out your barrel (unlikely), it will most likely be more expensive than to just buy two standard chromed barrels.

sundance435 · #10 01-22-10, 19:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by APD201

Not worth it, another way to look at it is there are who knows how many American soldiers and LE's using non hammer forged and they work just fine for them in much harsher conditions everyday.

That's one of the worst comparisons I've ever heard. American soldiers and LE use non-hammer forged barrels because that is what was provided to them through a lowest-bidder contract. Further, it's not an option with these rifles, since most AR makers, including Colt Defense (USA, as this does not apply to Diemaco), do not possess the equipment to make hammer forged barrels.

Also, nobody said that a regular mil-spec barrel won't work fine in harsh conditions. Performance-wise, the hammer forged barrels won't do anything better, other than give you a higher round count before barrel changes.

I say you might as well; for $100, you are getting a barrel that may well last quite a bit longer than a standard barrel and in the end at least pay for itself.

sundance435 · #11 01-22-10, 19:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by Keesh

Not worth it. You won't see a noticeable increase in accuracy and there are more important things to spend your money on since you already have a nice new rifle. While you may have a slightly longer barrel life with a CHF, if you ever do end up shooting out your barrel (unlikely), it will most likely be more expensive than to just buy two standard chromed barrels.

My math skills may be rusty, but unless you know of a source for quality barrels for $100, then it is in no way less expensive to buy two standard barrels. The BFH option from Bravo Company is $100, as has already been mentioned.

I'm sure you could buy a CMMG or DPMS barrel for less than a standard BCM barrel, but that's a different comparison altogether and not at all germane to the discussion at hand.

perna · #12 01-23-10, 03:02

Hrmm, you already have one and do not think you will shoot out the barrel, so why do you even need another?
If you just want to buy another, you will just shoot them each half as much if you only had one, so again you will NEVER need to rebarrel either one. OR just wait until there is a sale and you can get a CHF for the same price?

nickdrak · #13 01-23-10, 03:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by perna

Hrmm, you already have one and do not think you will shoot out the barrel, so why do you even need another?
If you just want to buy another, you will just shoot them each half as much if you only had one, so again you will NEVER need to rebarrel either one. OR just wait until there is a sale and you can get a CHF for the same price?

Two is one, and One is None

nickdrak · #14 01-23-10, 03:34

Actually, the difference is only $70 for the "BFH" hammer forged 16" middy barrel over the standard BCM NON-hammer forged barrel. The BCM BFH Cold Hammer Forged 16" Middies are among the best chrome lined barrels available on the market right now, and at $299 they are priced about the same as their competitors standard NON-hammer forged barrels.

I say jump on one now before they are no longer on sale and go back up to $400, or they sell out again!!! Just to clarify, Bravo Co. has their 16" BFH (hammer forged) Middy barrels currently on sale for $299.00

LINK: http://www.bravocompanyusa.com/BCM-B...d-16%20bfh.htm

perna · #15 01-23-10, 04:13

Quote:

Two is one, and One is None

Nice concept but when I feel the need to own 2 of everything, let alone try to carry two of everything, I will be broke and have a back problem from carrying all the extra weight.

Keesh · #16 01-23-10, 09:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by sundance435

My math skills may be rusty, but unless you know of a source for quality barrels for $100, then it is in no way less expensive to buy two standard barrels. The BFH option from Bravo Company is $100, as has already been mentioned.

I'm sure you could buy a CMMG or DPMS barrel for less than a standard BCM barrel, but that's a different comparison altogether and not at all germane to the discussion at hand.

What I'm saying is it will be cheaper in the long run. To my knowledge, the CHF process does not add 33% longer barrel life, which is roughly the difference in price between a standard DD CL barrel and a hammer forged one.

I guess what I'm getting at is most of us will not shoot out a barrel. If we do, there will most likely be something better down the road. Look at the Pat Rogers article, that standard barrel has over 26,000 rounds through it and still going strong. What bench rest shooters may consider 'shot out' is going to be different than what most of us consider shot out.

APD201 · #17 01-23-10, 12:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by sundance435

That's one of the worst comparisons I've ever heard. American soldiers and LE use non-hammer forged barrels because that is what was provided to them through a lowest-bidder contract. Further, it's not an option with these rifles, since most AR makers, including Colt Defense (USA, as this does not apply to Diemaco), do not possess the equipment to make hammer forged barrels.

Also, nobody said that a regular mil-spec barrel won't work fine in harsh conditions. Performance-wise, the hammer forged barrels won't do anything better, other than give you a higher round count before barrel changes.

I say you might as well; for $100, you are getting a barrel that may well last quite a bit longer than a standard barrel and in the end at least pay for itself.

Can you tell me where exactly I made a comparison?? I would think of it more as an example, and one backed by fact. For what the OP intends this this rifle for he will never see any benifit of CHF.

5pins · #18 01-23-10, 12:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by nickdrak

Actually, the difference is only $70 for the "BFH" hammer forged 16" middy barrel over the standard BCM NON-hammer forged barrel.

I think the OP is talking about the upper assembly for $525, not the stripped barrel.

Robb Jensen · #19 01-23-10, 13:08

The BCM hammer forged barrel is in my opinion are the very best hammer forged barrels available to civilians. We know that hammer forging is the best way to make a durable barrel especially when the barrel steel used is 11595E CMV which is the same as Colt and FN .

You will not go wrong with either type of BCM chrome lined barrel both are excellent. My BCM Limited 3gun rifle has a non-hammer forged 16" midlength 11595E - CMV chrome lined barrel and it runs 100% and is damn accurate for a chrome lined barrel. I predict that I will never shoot out this barrel.

moonshot · #20 01-23-10, 14:04

Correct, I'm not talking about the stripped barrel.

Gotm4 - I understand it's a top end barrel - perhaps the best hammer forged barrel available to me. What I am wondering about is do I need one?

I don't think I'll ever be able to appreciate the improved accuracy potential of this barrel over my current non-hammer forged BCM barrel, but I don't know. Currently, I do not have an RDS - I just use irons. Hopefully, that will change soon, but who knows?

I also don't think I'll ever be able to shoot out any barrel. I have a round limiter called lack of discretionary funds. However, if the hammer forged barrel offers other durability improvements beyond increased round count, that may be something I can use.

The cost difference between uppers is not great, but $100 is still $100.

The consensus seems to be not worth it, but I am still confused.