Piston uppers

[TigerStripe]

What is your favorite piston upper or which do you think is the best?


TS

[Daniel Defense]

POF makes an awesome piston upper.

After handling Larry Vickers HK 416 last month I really like it as well.

[M4arc]

I think first and foremost I would love an HK416 but I doubt I’d ever be able to get my grubby little mitts on one. I have high hopes for the Colt LE1020 but they aren’t due out until the end of 2007 (the last I heard). The Leitner-Wise stuff is a mystery until they can get production up and fill in all the orders and complete their arfcom group buy.

That leaves me with the POF as the front runner but not by default mind you. There is an excellent thread over on 10-8 and I took it that Frank was on top of things and making changes based upon the feedback he was receiving. By the sounds of it he’s constantly making improvements and is open to suggestions. I was very impressed with POF after reading that thread and the comments from those in the know. Oh and he's listening to the right people as well.

In addition to that dport recently purchased one and he seems to be more than happy with his. If I was to buy one today, without a doubt I would buy a POF because it sounds like Frank is in the mix, putting out an excellent product and constantly looking to improve that product.

[Griz]

I'm not convinced of the need for one yet....

At a recent machinegun shoot, my 10" AR with a RDIAS ran for about 2500 rounds of steel cased Wolf before it malfunctioned. The malfunction was so much red gunk had built up inside the bolt that the firing pin could no longer hit the primer.

I think that red gunk is the sealant around the primer pocket, so I'm not convinced that it came through the gas tube in the first place. I think it came through the firing pin hole so a piston upper would probably have the same problem.

Even if a piston would have run longer, I don't see hosing out my bolt every 2000+ rounds as a serious hardship. Maybe if I was on a 2-way range, but that's not gonna happen, and even if it did, I would try to avoid using the dirtiest ammo known to modern man.

(I might still get a piston upper though just because it's another toy to put in my toy box, er, I mean my safe.)

[Dport]

Originally Posted by M4arc

IIn addition to that dport recently purchased one and he seems to be more than happy with his. If I was to buy one today, without a doubt I would buy a POF because it sounds like Frank is in the mix, putting out an excellent product and constantly looking to improve that product.

Extremely happy is more like it.

And for those who may have heard, yes I did have a problem at a recent class. ONE OF MY OWN DOING.

A little history. I bought a stripped P-416 lower. Finished it out with CMT parts, and I put a SOPMOD stock on it. I did not torque the castle nut, nor did I stake it. Nor, it seems, did I screw the receiver extension in far enough to keep the buffer retainer in place. During a course of fire the buffer retainer worked loose and gummed up the works.

That problem WAS IN NO WAY ASSOCIATED WITH POF. That was a Dport screwup (bad, bad DPORT).

The POF assembled parts have functioned 100%.

I have another stripped lower that I'm considering a POF 18" upper for, sometime in the future. I am also very interested in their .308 gun.

I do still have my 16" Bushy superlight with an A1 upper, because the one thing the POF is not is superlight. I'm not sure you can get a piston gun as light as a DI gun. Although, if POF is willing to try, I'll be more than happy to beta test it.

[SAW_5.56]

Originally Posted by Dport

Extremely happy is more like it.

And for those who may have heard, yes I did have a problem at a recent class. ONE OF MY OWN DOING.

A little history. I bought a stripped P-416 lower. Finished it out with CMT parts, and I put a SOPMOD stock on it. I did not torque the castle nut, nor did I stake it. Nor, it seems, did I screw the receiver extension in far enough to keep the buffer retainer in place. During a course of fire the buffer retainer worked loose and gummed up the works.

That problem WAS IN NO WAY ASSOCIATED WITH POF. That was a Dport screwup (bad, bad DPORT).

The POF assembled parts have functioned 100%.

I have another stripped lower that I'm considering a POF 18" upper for, sometime in the future. I am also very interested in their .308 gun.

I do still have my 16" Bushy superlight with an A1 upper, because the one thing the POF is not is superlight. I'm not sure you can get a piston gun as light as a DI gun. Although, if POF is willing to try, I'll be more than happy to beta test it.

Minor thread hijack in progress: Dport, how do you like the POF lower? I'm looking at many different lowers in fear of the dems taking over in Nov. Does POF make it in house or is it subcontracted like Noveske/CMT, or RRA/CMT? How closely does the teflon finish match the anodizing of an upper?

[Dport]

I've been through two different carbine classes with this one lower, one with a DI gun, one with a piston gun, if that matters to you. I've never had a problem with it. I do have one mag that won't drop free from it; however, I suspect that is because that mag is old, probably out of spec, and definitely needs replaced.

Call me a poser if you want, but I like the pictograms on it. And, IMO, the deep black finish is a plus. I was going to KG coat the lower, but I couldn't bring myself to do it.

I don't know if POF makes their own or what, I'll let them answer that question; however, I have not had any problems with fit, finish or function with their lower.

The only thing I know is I waited for my lowers, but they were worth it!

[IndianaJeff]

I second the POF, I personally haven't used one but my shooting buddy has one, it's impressive how it works, just haven't talked myself in to one yet.

[MAP]

Originally Posted by Daniel Defense

POF makes an awesome piston upper.

After handling Larry Vickers HK 416 last month I really like it as well.

Jay,

Any chance a DD 7.0 can be made to fit the POF or Leitner Wise piston set ups?

Thanks,

Mike

[VA_Dinger]

I would have to say the HK416 is the "Best" based on the extensive testing it has gone through by both HK and the Tier 1 units issuing it. I highly doubt if any other gas piston design has seen even 1/4 the testing. If the system had any fleas these guys would have found them long ago.

Having handled and shot both Larry’s & Simon’s HK416 several times it’s hard not to be impressed. I’m not a big “Fit & Finish” guy, but the HK is simply perfect. Both ran like a Swiss watch also.

That being said they are not available for us yet. State & local LE sales have started, and I do consider this to be a positive sign for the future.

As for the other designs I have heard good and bad things about all of them. I have personally seen both a POF & LW run fine through an entire class, and that was certainly encouraging to see. I have spoken with Paul from LW about driving up for a shoot and hopefully this will happen this summer. As M4arc stated the POF has been getting some good reviews lately. Dport seems to like his POF and I respect his opinion. I also find the Colt LE1020 very interesting; time will tell on how it performs. I look forward to getting some real experience with all of these designs.

[cohiba]

Still believe that piston uppers are an answer to an as yet unclear question. If there are any benefits, they might only be appreciated by the most severe end user under equally severe conditions.

As a civilian shooter, even the most ammo happy training I have undergone burned about 2200 rds in short order. My well lubed M4 with good mags (HKs) never missed a beat. Any Tier 1 rifle that hiccupped was either dry or had a bad magazine.

I can't imagine a piston set up for me that would be better than what I require and get out of my Colt/Noveske/LaRue upper. I'll be seeing another piston upper competitor next month and while I'm sure it will shoot well, again, I do not think the gas impingement system as refined as it is now is in trouble any time soon. I have been wrong once though...well twice...there was that one time in 1985 but the less said about that the better.

[Daniel Defense]

Originally Posted by MAP

Jay,

Any chance a DD 7.0 can be made to fit the POF or Leitner Wise piston set ups?

Thanks,

Mike

The piston uppers won't work with the current DD rails but we are working on something with the AR15 Lite Rail so that the POF piston upper would work with them.

[Dport]

Originally Posted by VA_Dinger

I would have to say the HK416 is the "Best" based on the extensive testing it has gone through by both HK and the Tier 1 units issuing it. I highly doubt if any other gas piston design has seen even 1/4 the testing. If the system had any fleas these guys would have found them long ago.

I don't think you can say any DI gun has undergone the testing a Colt or an FN has undergone either. You pay your money, and you take your chances.

The advantage of a civilian user of these guns is you can operate it until you feel comfortable with it, and if you have any problems you can send it back to be worked on. The advantage is you can get a gun in just about any configuration you want

I think military guns have to be totally different. You have to have high quality every time and be able to expect the gun to function very well for the projected life span of the gun. The price you pay is conformity. You don't get to pick and chose what you want or don't want.

[VA_Dinger]

Originally Posted by cohiba

Still believe that piston uppers are an answer to an as yet unclear question. If there are any benefits, they might only be appreciated by the most severe end user under equally severe conditions.

I would have to agree 100%.

We have all seen properly maintained & lubricated standard AR's run fine even through some very high round counts. That being said the gas piston designs certainly give the end user more margin for error in keeping his weapon reliable.

[TigerStripe]

I have a POF and love it. I don't care for the Predator rail on a "combat-style" carbine, for shooting targets it's fine. Good to hear DD is working on a rail to fit the POF. I'll be one of the first to snag one up.


TS

[Harv]

I don't have any burning desire for a piston upper. I could see if my normal Upper was unreliable or did not function well. But I guess that's just me. if I had to have one I would love the HK416. But only if they made them reasonable in price.

[SAW_5.56]

Originally Posted by VA_Dinger

I would have to say the HK416 is the "Best" based on the extensive testing it has gone through by both HK and the Tier 1 units issuing it. I highly doubt if any other gas piston design has seen even 1/4 the testing. If the system had any fleas these guys would have found them long ago.

Having handled and shot both Larry’s & Simon’s HK416 several times it’s hard not to be impressed. I’m not a big “Fit & Finish” guy, but the HK is simply perfect. Both ran like a Swiss watch also.

That being said they are not available for us yet. State & local LE sales have started, and I do consider this to be a positive sign for the future.

As for the other designs I have heard good and bad things about all of them. I have personally seen both a POF & LW run fine through an entire class, and that was certainly encouraging to see. I have spoken with Paul from LW about driving up for a shoot and hopefully this will happen this summer. As M4arc stated the POF has been getting some good reviews lately. I also find the Colt LE1020 very interesting; time will tell on how it performs. I look forward to getting some real experience with all of these designs.

There is a thread over on 10-8 forums that I read recently with some interest. It was a thread on the POF piston system but a gentleman chimed in saying that the HK 416 couldn't beat the MK18 in recent testing concerning waterborne environments. The thread is still up, pretty sure it's not gunshop commando/mall ninja fare. If true it was kind of surprising.

[C4IGrant]

Originally Posted by SAW_5.56

There is a thread over on 10-8 forums that I read recently with some interest. It was a thread on the POF piston system but a gentleman chimed in saying that the HK 416 couldn't beat the MK18 in recent testing concerning waterborne environments. The thread is still up, pretty sure it's not gunshop commando/mall ninja fare. If true it was kind of surprising.

The Navy looks at different things than say the Army does. The HK failed the "over the beach test" from what I have heard from credible sources. I also think that if HK would have made some minor configuration changes (VERY MINOR) the 416 would have passed the Navy test.

With that being said, I have fired the 416 and LW systems. I found that they both had higher felt recoil to me. The 416 in particular felt overly heavy to me as well. The model I shot was their 10.5 so it was light as they could make it.

I am all for piston systems, but want them to be light weight and with little to no more recoil than a DI system. Until I see this happen, I will pass.


C4

[SAW_5.56]

Originally Posted by C4IGrant

The Navy looks at different things than say the Army does. The HK failed the "over the beach test" from what I have heard from credible sources. I also think that if HK would have made some minor configuration changes (VERY MINOR) the 416 would have passed the Navy test.

With that being said, I have fired the 416 and LW systems. I found that they both had higher felt recoil to me. The 416 in particular felt overly heavy to me as well. The model I shot was their 10.5 so it was light as they could make it.

I am all for piston systems, but want them to be light weight and with little to no more recoil than a DI system. Until I see this happen, I will pass.


C4

When you say heavy, do you mean heavy as in overall weight? Or are you refering to balance, more front heavy?

[JTAC_Supply]

While I like the idea of the piston guns, and have fired the POF and LW, and have friends that have and like the POF, the ones I've handled seemed pretty heavy in comparison to similar direct impingement guns. Certainly nothing against them, but I didn't like that aspect. Other than that, the current limitations of rail system availability is a bummer but I imagine that may change down the road as the systems mature.

That said, I keep planning on getting a POF to play with but haven't gotten around to it yet.

Jason