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Thread: Piston v. DI temp measurements

  1. #1
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    Piston v. DI temp measurements

    Temperature readings were taken with a cheapo laser thermometer I bought at the local auto parts store. It might be accurate and shows a reading of somewhere between 94 degrees and 98 degrees on bare skin. Probably accurate enough for its intended use.

    Temps were taken in the same spots on both guns. Both guns were measured before and after firing. For the sake of continuity, I tried to get readings off the same spots on the two different guns. Upper temps were taken on the right side of the receiver in front of the ejection port. Bolt carrier temperatures were taken with the carrier still in the receiver through the ejection port at the scallop that clears the dust cover. Temps on the bolts were taken with the carriers removed but bolts still in carriers. Temps were taken on the top of the bolt at 12:00.

    I started with a Colt M4 (SOCOM fat barrel) and my Ruger SR556C. Both guns were measured at the barrel at an external temp of 73.5 degrees.

    I started with the Ruger on the Colt F/A lower. I ran one mag on full-auto, locked the bolt open and took temperature readings. I then let the gun sit with the bolt locked open for thirty seconds and then took a second set of readings. I did this for a total of five magazines.
    I then put the Colt lower back on the Colt and repeated the above.

    After this, I allowed both uppers to cool and then fired 90 rounds through both guns on full-auto. The guns were then set aside for one minute with the bolts locked open before temps were taken.

    Please note that I didn’t have the time or the ammo to try this with the HK416. I hope to have a chance for the same test(s) on Tuesday.

    Here's what I came up with:




    First column after firing, second column after sitting for thirty seconds.

    Colt M4
    Code:
    Mag 1:  
    Flash hider  	141      	88
    Barrel          86        	89
    Gas Block   	103     	109 
    Upper          	82        	85
    B/C            	83.5     	84.5   
    Bolt           	90.5     	84.5
    
    Mag 2:
    FH            	120       	95
    B             	100.5    	90.5
    GB              136       	141
    U              	96         	99
    BC             	95         	96.5
    B               111.5     	94
    
    Mag 3:
    FH            	136      	123
    B               115.5    	89.5
    GB              138.5   	156
    U               103.5   	109
    BC              106       	106.5
    B               121.5   	108
    
    Mag 4:
    FH             	165       	132
    B               136.5    	123
    GB              179.5    	157
    U               115.5     	118
    BC              115		115.5
    B              	124.5    	112.5
    
    Mag 5:
    FH            	164       	143
    B               151      	135
    GB              183		179.5
    U               123.5    	125
    BC              121.5     	121.5
    B               126       	119
    And the same measurements on the Ruger

    Code:
    Mag 1:
    FH           	82	87
    B               113	122
    GB              104	120
    U              	76   	74.5
    BC              78 	74.5
    B               78     	74
    
    Mag 2:
    FH           	95    	90
    B               150    	96
    GB             	121   	116
    U               77.5   	81
    BC              79     	83
    B              	77    	75
    
    Mag 3:
    FH             	117    	106
    B              	146    	156
    GB              174    	166
    U               83      89.5
    BC              84.5    89.5
    B               76.5    75.5
    
    Mag 4:
    FH             	124.5 	123
    B               156    	216
    GB             	165     214
    U               96     	93
    BC             	91      93
    B               80.5   	79.5
    
    Mag 5:
    FH             	120   	106
    B               203     198
    GB            	168 	208
    U               90	94.5
    BC             	94.5	98.5
    B               87     	85
    Finally, both guns after ninety rounds and then a 1-minute cooling period:

    Code:
    Colt  	Ruger
    FH     	317     340
    B       349     360
    GB    	258     278
    U       135.5   106.5
    BC     	109.5   77.5
    B      	90.5    77.5

  2. #2
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    so what I got from this is theres no significant heat difference. Only big difference I see is a 40 degree difference on the bolt and BCG. I dont see that making or breaking anything.

    So that seems the biggest thing to pay attention to and is to be expected between DI and piston. Wonder how big this difference can get on lets say a 5 mag dump.

  3. #3
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    Quote Originally Posted by ForTehNguyen View Post
    so what I got from this is theres no significant heat difference.
    That seems to be a consistent finding

  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by ForTehNguyen View Post
    so what I got from this is theres no significant heat difference. Only big difference I see is a 40 degree difference on the bolt and BCG. I dont see that making or breaking anything.

    So that seems the biggest thing to pay attention to and is to be expected between DI and piston. Wonder how big this difference can get on lets say a 5 mag dump.
    I conducted a limited test earlier with a Colt M4 and an HK416 with a 10" barrel. I ran sixty rounds through both guns and really saw no big differences in temps on the bolts. There was a big difference in temps on the flash hiders and barrels. This could have been an error with my cheap thermometer or there could be an actual difference based on something HK has done with their system.

    Code:
    HK––two 30rd mags of Federal 62gr on full-auto
    flash hider 156
    barrel 144
    gas block 245
    upper 100.5
    bolt 95.5
    
    Colt––two 30rd mags of Federal 62gr on full-auto
    flash hider 267
    barrel 289
    gas block 232
    upper 124
    bolt 98
    It looks like, based on my limited experimentation, that there is no heat advantage to running a piston in a semi-auto or limited engagement type of scenario. There could be a significant heat advantage in the bolt carrier and upper after several hundred rounds of continuous and sustained automatic rifle but that remains to be seen.

  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by ForTehNguyen View Post
    so what I got from this is theres no significant heat difference. Only big difference I see is a 40 degree difference on the bolt and BCG. I dont see that making or breaking anything.

    So that seems the biggest thing to pay attention to and is to be expected between DI and piston. Wonder how big this difference can get on lets say a 5 mag dump.
    Uh, you cannot state with any degree of confidence that the 20 degrees don't make a difference on the bolt. The endurance strength and cyclic loading is sensitive to temperature. How sensitive? See someone at one of the companies who can run an FMEA Model with the proper boundary conditions.

    I suspect the extractor spring would be more sensitive than you think being such a tiny spring.

    Will it make a difference in a class or four? No, the design is not that marginal. I'll take anything moving in the proper engineering direction: Better is ALWAYS better; even if it's only marginally so.

  6. #6
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    How about measure the temperature of the piston vs gas tube?

    I know most say selector to auto is for that .01% for suppressive fire especially during a tactical rear deplyment, but other than the lack of lube failures, I have to wonder.

    For instance, the guys who like firing FA and seeing gas tubes turn red and melt can cause the catastrophic failure so I wonder if anyone has attributed any of the spray and pray malfunctions due to the gas tube failing?
    Glocks are functional tools and nothing else, hence they have no soul - Rob S.

  7. #7
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    What I can see, especially with the bolt temps is that they are still within what might be considered to be "normal" temps. I have little to no engineering experience so correct me if I'm wrong (maybe temp cycles are more important than use at temp), but the bolt faces never really got above the 120's on the DI gun. Wouldn't a black rifle in the desert or just a really sunny day already have its parts almost at that temp? It just seems to me that we aren't talking about bringing the bolt to like 300 degrees and then exposing it to high pressure, which I could see being an issue. Sure the piston gun kept the temp lower on parts like the bolt carrier, bolt face, and upper, but to me it just doesn't seem like a part-saving amount.

    Again, please correct me if I am wrong.

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by emt370 View Post
    What I can see, especially with the bolt temps is that they are still within what might be considered to be "normal" temps. I have little to no engineering experience so correct me if I'm wrong (maybe temp cycles are more important than use at temp), but the bolt faces never really got above the 120's on the DI gun. Wouldn't a black rifle in the desert or just a really sunny day already have its parts almost at that temp? It just seems to me that we aren't talking about bringing the bolt to like 300 degrees and then exposing it to high pressure, which I could see being an issue. Sure the piston gun kept the temp lower on parts like the bolt carrier, bolt face, and upper, but to me it just doesn't seem like a part-saving amount.

    Again, please correct me if I am wrong.
    There is not enough technical info available to draw any conclusions other than what the OP posted.

  9. #9
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    Additional heat testing

    Colt M4 vs. HK416. 150rds on full-auto.

    Code:
    Colt					HK416
    
    Flash hider:  	423			300
    Barrel:		343			281
    Gas block:	360			338
    Upper:		150.5			103
    Carrier:	130			102
    Bolt:		90			78
    Temps fluctuated wildly on the barrels, gas blocks and front sights so I allowed both weapons to cool for twenty seconds before measurements were taken. Still, the heat readings were erratic on the front ends. Both guns showed consistant readings on the uppers, bolts, and bolt carriers...

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tokarev View Post
    I ran sixty rounds through both guns and really saw no big differences in temps on the bolts.
    I really hate when the Pistards demo that. They'll pop a bolt out of a recently fired piston gun and hold it in their hand AS IF you couldn't do the exact same thing with a DI gun.

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