Blackwater Carbine Operators course

[heavyfire7537]

Has anyone attended this? What are your thoughts?

[C4IGrant]

Originally Posted by heavyfire7537

Has anyone attended this? What are your thoughts?

Took some of it. Would suggest that your better off going to a class by Vickers or Rogers.



C4

[Wayne Dobbs]

I would second Grant's advice. I've had one of Pat's classes and am waiting on one of Vickers' classes as soon as it's near enough. Pat is off the scale in knowledge, ability to teach and in being a real deal guy.

Another I would suggest is Paul Howe, who is another well regarded and real world experienced trainer.

[John_Wayne777]

Originally Posted by heavyfire7537

Has anyone attended this? What are your thoughts?

I've taken it a few times.

The course quality depends on the instructor and your classmates. The BW instructors are usually good, with a certain number of them being very good. (Most of my BW instructors were awesome.) The BW facility itself is fantastic.

It's definitely a good course for those who have had no formal training on the carbine. Very experienced people can still find themselves challenged in the course. It is a good solid fundamentals course.

Courses from Vickers or Rogers would also be very good ideas.

[Don Robison]

I've been there twice in the last 12 months. The do a 6 day custom course for us, 2 day carbine, 2 day pistol, 1 day driving and one day IADs that we use as part of our spin up. I would echo John Wayne, it depends on the instructor. I've have positive experiences, the last two times I've been have been the same, but different if that makes sense. In my experience the instructors have been good and each one stressed different things they have either seen or heard from other teams coming through other courses. I won't say any instruction is good instruction, because we all know there are some not so good instructors out there, but I will say almost any instruction is better than no instruction. It all depends on your level and picking the correct level of instruction for your skills. Be honest with yourself and don't sign up for an advanced class if you're not up to the advanced level and if you sign up for a class below your level, don't be "that guy", you know the one who tries to take over for the instructor.

[VA_Dinger]

I've attended several classes at Blackwater and enjoyed them all.

One thing about Blackwater; it would be tough to beat their facilities. They keep adding stuff all the time. I go down there every few months for a shoot and each & every time I'm amazed at just how fast they keep growing.

Last time I checked:
- Over thirty ranges - steel pop ups, moving steel targets, obstacle course, etc.
- 4-5 shoot houses
- 1,000 yard sniper range
- Rogers Range - pistol speed shooting
- Aircraft runway & hangers
- Driving course
- Unknown distance range
- Ship simulators
- Aircraft body simulators
- Bus/train simulators
- Urban simulator w/ actors for indigenous civilians
- Drop zones
- Helicopter insertion
- Small boat insertion
- Simulations
- Great Pro shop
- Outstanding armor support
- Rental guns
- Rappelling training
- Mech & explosive breach training
- Various weapon or manufacturer specific armor level courses.
- Hot meal cafeteria
- Onsite lodging

Let's just say it's an impressive facility.

They are getting DAMN expensive for civilian classes though. In my opinion they have really priced themselves out of this market. That being said civilian or open courses are not really what they are geared towards.

[Robb Jensen]

Great courses at Blackwater, I like mine a lot. There's a lot of things you can do at Blackwater that you can't anywhere else. BUT because of the amount of instructors to student ratio the instructors can't give as much individual training/attention as a Vickers, SDI, or Langdon course can.

[JC_]

I am taking this class at the Mount Carroll location right now - day 5 tomorrow. It is worthwhile and concentrates heavily on the basics. Although a nice facility, it is nothing like the one in Moyock.

[NCPatrolAR]

I did the carbine operator course back in 03 or 04. The course was good IMO, but I had great instructors. I view it as a great "fundamentals' course and recommend it to people.

[John_Wayne777]

As Dinger pointed out, BW in Moyock is probably the single greatest facility I've ever seen or heard about.

The level of instruction offered varies, but is consistently pretty good. BW does a good job of developing a consistent curriculum and they've done a good job (or at least they had last time I was there) of hiring instructors who actually know how to teach. (Knowing how to be an instructor is a distinct and different skillset that everybody doesn't possess.)

For someone with no formal training on the carbine or for someone whose only formal training has been something like a police department minimum requirement carbine qual course, I think the BW course is a good idea.

I learned a lot from BW. I've learned a lot more from Larry Vickers....thus if somebody is ready to go beyond the basics I'd suggest training with him.