Aftec 1911 Extractor...

[Yojimbo]

Reading through AR HD extractor thread got me thinking about adding one of these to my 1911.

I've known about these for some years now and as far as I know other than not being a stock part I have never heard anything bad about them.

To me it sounds like a good way to Murphy proof my 1911 but I'm curious to know what you guys think of the Aftec dual spring 1911 extractor?

[bigbore]

extraction of a rifle case is nothing like a 45 ACP - if its not broke dont fix it

My best shooting/reliable 1911 was made in 1944 and is all original

[Yojimbo]

Originally Posted by bigbore

extraction of a rifle case is nothing like a 45 ACP - if its not broke dont fix it

My best shooting/reliable 1911 was made in 1944 and is all original

I understand that but I also know that the 1911 extractor has it's own issues as well. More often than not a 1911 extractor needs tuning right out of the box and the Aftec extractor fixes this issue.

When it's comes to AR's and 1911's sometimes fixing things that aren't broke is way of keeping Murphy in check...

[dubb-1]

I don't have any extraction issues. Then again, I have quality 1911s. There is nothing wrong with the original design of the 1911 extractor--it works. There is a problem with some of the end products that may wind up on dealers' shelves.

I'll tell you a secret. Three of the best 1911 gunsmiths breathing are building guns for me. Each has carte blanche as to components and style, with the only caveat that each gun is to be built to fight. I can guarantee you that none of the three will arrive at my home with anything remotely resembling anything other than a basic, quality extractor, just as JMB intended.

[Hydguy]

One of the reasons that some 1911's have extractor issues is because of the type of material used.

You would be suprised if you knew who used cheap parts. A solid spring steel extractor is what JMB used to design the extractor for the 1911, and no one has really been able to make anything better.

The AFTEC extractor is designed to pick up the slack of crappy work. Notice that you don't see the custom outfit guys selling anything like it (Wilson, Baer, Nighthawk, Brown and the truly custom guys like Vickers, Tibbets and so on).

If you are having extraction issues that make you feel that you need a gimmick like that, find a GOOD 1911 smith to PROPERLY FIT and TENSION a quality extractor.

[Dave Berryhill]

Yojimbo - the AFTEC has positives and negatives like anything else. Often they don't "drop in" because the slide may be out of spec. If that is the case, they can be harder to tune than a standard internal extractor. They are also more difficult to re-install in the field than a standard extractor and if you lose any of the tiny springs you are SOL unless you've got spares with you (those little springs evaporate when they hit the ground).

They really aren't necessary in a .45 ACP pistol and carrying a spare, pre-tuned extractor to swap with is simple. Where they do shine is with higher pressure cartridges such as .38 Super, 40 S&W and 10mm 1911s. These are seldom used for self defense pistols and more likely to be used for target or competition shooting.

On the positive side, the AFTEC is made from some tough material and once they are properly set up, they only require periodic spring replacement. Hilton Yam has a different perspective on them but his is more logistical in nature. If you have to maintain a large number of 1911s then they can simplify your job. Instead of bending and testing, bending and testing, etc. to adjust a bunch of 1911 extractors during a weapons inspection, you swap springs and move on.

[Steve_Morrison]

I agree with what Dave wrote.
In the modern world, pretty much every part on a 1911 requires fitting to work well, there are just too many variables and not enough standardization.

I don't believe the AFTEC was designed to "pick up the slack of crappy worK", it was designed to offer longer life and higher reliablility compared to the conventional extractor. The conventional extractor, which is a leaf spring, works very well, but a properly executed coil spring design will work just as well, for a longer round count. With the coil spring design the hook can be made from a material with the optimim properties for it's job, and the spring made from a material with optimal spring properties.
The conventional extractor is a compromise- it has to be made from a material with good spring properties, which compromises some of the properties ideal for hook life (abrasion and toughness).

For a pistol which will be shot a lot, the AFTEC is a good option.
I've never seen one break, and I've never had one lose tension. My only reservation about them is they are a bit more difficult to install in the gun and there are several small parts which are easy to lose during disassembly.
A properly fitted conventional extractor will indeed last a long time, but an AFTEC will last even longer, they are a better mousetrap.

The reason you don't see them used more often is the reasons mentioned above and the fact they are far more expensive than a conventional extractor. That and a certain amount of ludditeism in the 1911 industry.

[Yojimbo]

Thanks everyone for sharing their insight.

One of the reasons I started thinking about the Aftec was because of the fact that in many cases, as mentioned above, a good experienced gunsmith is needed to properly fit and tune a 1911 extractor.

I know how to do the basic tuning for a 1911 extractor but IMHO, it's something the end user really shouldnt have to do.

IMHO, the internal 1911 extractor can be better.

The comment about Ludditeism in the 1911 world is true and I'm one of them.

I actually started thinking about the Aftec back in 2001 and as you can see I'm still using a standard internal extractor.

Actually, one of the best gunsmiths I know of brought this up in an article that was written about his custom pistols. The gunsmith I'm talking about is Larry Vickers.

Here's some of the things he mentioned...(Quoted from American Handgunner July 2001)

Browning's Mistakes

At the risk of invoking a bolt of lightning, Vickers feels there are two design flaws in the 1911 that need correcting by a manufacturer; the defects are beyond the ability of a pistolsmith to fix.

The problems are the extractor and the plunger tube. The extractor should be an external style, Vickers asserts, like on a SIG. The plunger tube should be replacable, Vickers says, but it should be retained in a better way than with that "two-legs-and-peening nonsense."

"The way the plunger tube is held on the gun is basically archaic. The plunger tube was made to be held on by the grips, but with the many different sorts of grips on the market now, you can't count on that. There are only two little legs that hold it on there. If the plunger tube comes loose, it can pop over your safety and keep you from taking the safety off. That can get you killed," Vickers soberly stated.

He also doesn't particularly like the way the ejector is press-fit into the frame. Vickers stakes both the ejector and the barrel link to assure they don't wiggle loose.

The extractor, though, is a sore spot for the veteran operator. "The extractor is the key to the gun. The more you know about a 1911, the more you realize that the extractor determines everything in that gun. The extractor is more of a functioning issue and the plunger tube is more of a safety issue," Vickers said.

"The spring steel that John Browning originally spec'd for the extractor was some pretty darn good spring steel, but they have tried all sorts of steel in the intervening years and there're a lot of weak extractors out there."

"I can't Count the number of 1911s, especially Colts, I've seen with minimal or no extractor tension out-of-the-box. They need to be tuned. A gun that needs that sort of work out-of-the-box is unacceptable. That's like buying a car and needing a tuneup before you can drive it. It's just not acceptable. That design needs to be changed.

"Name the last HK USP or S&W 4506 or SIG 220--those are the other .45s that compete with the 1911--that wouldn't function reliably out-of-the-box because it didn't have sufficient extractor tension. You can't. They all work perfectly, except the 1911," Vickers fumed.

"A good external extractor needs to be designed into the gun and a different plunger tube needs to be designed. That's something that needs to be addressed by the manufacturer," Vickers said.

Some interesting reading huh? Even though this was written in 2001 I still haven't seen anything that tells me things have changed regarding the stock internal 1911 extractor. Shows how much of Luddite I am that even though Larry recommends external extractors I'm still trying to cling to some type of internal extractor. Not to mention the fact that I have not been too impressed with the external extractors that I've seen designed for 1911s.

Anyways, I was just wondering out loud and now thanks to you folks I've got some thinking to do.

Cheers!

P.S. - Here's another excellent discussion on the Aftec extractor.

http://www.10-8forums.com/ubbthreads...fpart=all&vc=1

[Hydguy]

Yojimbo, Vickers was supposedly hired by HK to work on a 1911 style pistol, and it never appeared.

While the plunger tube COULD come off, I've only seen 2 out of all the 1911's I've dealt with. cut on the extractor.Admittedly, it isn't anywhere near the number that Mr. Vickers has handled, but it the plunger tube is properly made (not MIM), and properly installed, it would be many moons before you ever had to worry about it.

Mr. Vickers clearly states the reason for extractor problems. And companies such as Kimber and Sig have tried external extractors, and Kimber is now going back to the internal style. One Sig that I worked on had to go back to Sig less than 3 months arter the customer recieved it because it would not reliably extract. So, the issue of internal or external isn't the real issue. It's the tension and cut on the extractor.

[rob_s]

While the Vickers article claims that he would prefer an external to an internal, it doesn't mention the Aftec specifically.

I still prefer the internal standard extractor. I like knowing that I can tune it myself as need be.

[VA_Dinger]

I'm certainly not speaking for Larry but I think his statements in this article are taken out of context by a lot of people. I think the vast majority of it was aimed at production 1911's (IE - little or no hand fitting at the factory). I’m sure he would agree that a top quality tool steel extractor hand fit & tuned by a competent 1911 gunsmith alleviates any "Problems" with modern 1911 extractors. That’s the way JMB intended 1911’s to be built in the first place. It’s the deviation from the original 1911 specs by production 1911 manufacturers (Cheaper materials & lack of hand fitting & tuning) that causes issues.

The same could also be said for the 1911 plunger design, although the plunger on Larry’s new LAV/Nighthawk pistol alleviates the problem completely. It’s built right into the frame so theirs nothing to come loose.

[Robb Jensen]

Originally Posted by Yojimbo

Reading through AR HD extractor thread got me thinking about adding one of these to my 1911.

I run one on my STI 2011. It runs well. In fact, the pistol now has 10K through it with the original set of Aftec extractor springs still in it.

I had two light strike tonight at a USPSA match, I think I need to clean out the firing pin channel..........Doh!

It could be related to my new Bomar rear because I did notice that when I first installed the sight and had it bottom all the way down that it locked up the firing pin, it took loosening the elevation screw to get to unlock the firing pin. I've also added the new Warp Speed drop-in C&S trigger kit. My trigger had become very creepy and sluggish on reset. The new one is heavier (3lb) but breaks like a 'glass rod' and resets very positively.

[KurtD]

Originally Posted by Yojimbo

Reading through AR HD extractor thread got me thinking about adding one of these to my 1911.

I've known about these for some years now and as far as I know other than not being a stock part I have never heard anything bad about them.

To me it sounds like a good way to Murphy proof my 1911 but I'm curious to know what you guys think of the Aftec dual spring 1911 extractor?

I built my wife a 9mm 1911 (caspian frame & slide) and it first took me a while to figure out feeding. The solution was Metalform/Dawson Precision Mags. Next was the extractor. I tried everything to tune and either it was too tight and wouldn't feed, or it was too loose and wouldn't extract. I broke down and paid for the AFTEC. Wow. Do it. If my 1911 wasn't a series 80, I'd put one in it as well.

[Littlelebowski]

I'd like to hear what Steve and Dave think of the EGW HD extractor.

[DeltaKilo]

So, if i understand it correctly, the aftec extractor essentially is designed to add the type of spring-actuated extractor design seen on other modern pistols to a 1911 without modification of the slide?

[DeltaKilo]

Originally Posted by Littlelebowski

I'd like to hear what Steve and Dave think of the EGW HD extractor.

I just installed one of these in a gun and ran a good thousand rounds through it over the weekend. It's held up, took a tuning well, and extracted the way it was supposed to.

To be fair, I've never had an extractor in a 1911 fail over the course of maybe 200,000 rounds lifetime out of one.

[KurtD]

Originally Posted by DeltaKilo

So, if i understand it correctly, the aftec extractor essentially is designed to add the type of spring-actuated extractor design seen on other modern pistols to a 1911 without modification of the slide?

that is my understanding.

[KurtD]

Originally Posted by DeltaKilo

I just installed one of these in a gun and ran a good thousand rounds through it over the weekend. It's held up, took a tuning well, and extracted the way it was supposed to.

To be fair, I've never had an extractor in a 1911 fail over the course of maybe 200,000 rounds lifetime out of one.

I put the Aftec in a 9mm commander.

[Wildcat]

My experience mirrors Robb Jensen's. I put them in two slides (standard length 40 and 6" 9mm) that are fitted for my 2011 and in 30k rounds have not had extractor problems. Just clean the extractor channel out every 5k rounds (that frequency is powder dependent).

I've been running the 9mm on one spring. I didn't lose the second spring, I just use one - in the rear socket. I do recommend that you polish the under surfaces near the hook like this if you can:

[DeltaKilo]

Originally Posted by KurtD

I put the Aftec in a 9mm commander.

Interesting. I admit I do not have a 9mm 1911, only a 45, so I can only speak to that caliber with the EGW in question.

As to the Aftec, I poked around the internet trying to find one for the .45 ACP, finally got one over at Brownells. I'm going to give it a shot, see how it works out.