Questions Concerning Handgun Grip and Reload Techniques

[Misc Ex-Member]

I want to open a discussion on some of the most common techniques employed currently in defensive (and some competitive) handgunning. Specifically, the "two thumbs forward" grip and rotating the gun up and in during the reload.

Is there a particular advantage to the thumbs-forward grip versus say a thumbs-high grip? Also, when reloading, is anybody concerned that rotating the gun up close to the face may introduce control vulnerabilities?

Thanks in advance for your answers and experiences.

[John_Wayne777]

As requested:

In reference to the thumbs-forward grip:

Personally I find that I am able to get a MUCH more secure grip on the weapon with the thumbs-forward technique. I find that I "drive" the weapon much more naturally and manage to get the sights on target faster when I use the thumbs forward grip.

Thumbs forward helps minimize lateral movement of the weapon as well, another factor in helping with accuracy. The downside of the thumbs forward grip is that on some weapons I render the slide lock inoperative on an empty magazine. (Sigs, mainly...) A small price to pay, in my opinion, for the increased accuracy and speed I get.

In reference to the "workstation" philosophy:

As far as the reloading thing goes, Todd is showing what is called the "workstation" philosophy. Blackwater (and lots of other folks) teaches that to students. It is quicker and easier to reload when the weapon is in close to the body and it allows you to get eyes on to the most critical part of the reload, namely the insertion of the new mag into the mag-well.

Done properly, you are focused on the threat/target until the point when you are ready to insert the magazine, and then you focus on the weapon to ensure you get the new magazine in there, and then once you begin to drive the magazine into the well to seat it, you focus back on the threat. Done properly, you don't miss anything going on in front of you, but you are able to reload much more quickly, reliably, and efficiently.

[subzero]

Is there any real difference between thumbs-forward and thumbs-high? Seems to me that thumbs-high is just thumbs-forward on a gun with a lot of crap (improperly placed slide release, decocker, etc) in the way and that's the change needed to work around all of that.

As far as rotating the gun up in front of the face during reloads, I'm less concerned with loss of control of the weapon. If we want to make that case, we could easily say any manipulation of the weapon at all (strong hand only, reholstering, etc) constitutes a risk of loss of control. I'm more concerned about getting it fed quickly and keeping my eye on the bad guys. Where else would I put it when trying to feed it? Down by my waist? Center of chest? If I have it anywhere but up in front of me I'm taking my eyes off of what's in front of me for the second that I'm looking the magazine into the magazine well. While that's true no matter where the gun is, the further it is from that line of sight the longer it'll take to reacquire the bad guys once the gun is fed.

I try to tell myself to keep the gun almost artificially high (like right in my eyeline) when I'm reloading. If I don't, the natural tendency seems to be to let it drop while I reload, leaving me hunched over at the end of the reload. It seems smoother for me because I'm taking less time to reacquire the target once the reload is complete. Further, the sights come to the eye quicker because the gun stays at nearly the same level (eye level) for the duration of the reload.

[Hoplophile]

Originally Posted by Thekatar

Also, when reloading, is anybody concerned that rotating the gun up close to the face may introduce control vulnerabilities?

I'm a lot more concerned that when I'm not in my workstation I am risking "control vulnerabilities" such as fumbling the insertion and dropping the mag on my toes.

[Robb Jensen]

The timer has proven time and again that the more 'contact' you have with the pistol the more control you have of the pistol. The more control you have of the pistol the faster you can shoot it more accurately.

As Wyatt Earp said "Speed is fine but accuracy is final". But better yet why not be open minded enough to realize you need both speed and accuracy? Bad guys aren't going to give you a PAR time.

I've never lost control of my gun while looking at it near my face doing a reload. I have lost control of a mag doing the reload, the gun is more important. For IPSC/USPSA shooting I have 1 gun and a minimum of 4 mags on my body, sometimes 6 mags depending on what division I'm shooting. If I drop or fumble a reload, go for the next mag.

It may not work for you..............it's just a way, not the way.

[Misc Ex-Member]

Originally Posted by John_Wayne777

As requested:

The downside of the thumbs forward grip is that on some weapons I render the slide lock inoperative on an empty magazine. (Sigs, mainly...) A small price to pay, in my opinion, for the increased accuracy and speed I get.

What about inadvertant slide lock?

It is quicker and easier to reload when the weapon is in close to the body and it allows you to get eyes on to the most critical part of the reload, namely the insertion of the new mag into the mag-well.

Done properly, you are focused on the threat/target until the point when you are ready to insert the magazine, and then you focus on the weapon to ensure you get the new magazine in there, and then once you begin to drive the magazine into the well to seat it, you focus back on the threat. Done properly, you don't miss anything going on in front of you, but you are able to reload much more quickly, reliably, and efficiently.

I agree that the handgun should be drawn close into the body and kept at least in peripheral vision (if possible) while watching the threat. But what if it is very dark or you have had a light directed at your eyes and you have lost your night vision? Is training yourself to always glance at your HG during a reload setting you up for failure if the lights go out?

[Misc Ex-Member]

Originally Posted by subzero

Is there any real difference between thumbs-forward and thumbs-high?

Hey, that's what I asked! Is there any real difference? I know it's possible to accidentally lock the slide back with TF; that can't happen with TH. If there is no real difference between the two, why not go with the fool-proof grip?

Seems to me that thumbs-high is just thumbs-forward on a gun with a lot of crap (improperly placed slide release, decocker, etc) in the way and that's the change needed to work around all of that.

You may not always have the advantage of using your favorite handgun. Cross-platform universal techniques can come in handy.

[John_Wayne777]

Originally Posted by Thekatar

What about inadvertant slide lock?

I've never had an issue with it myself. Generally the issue I have with slide locks is that I deactivate them with my big meaty paws. If because of your particular physiology you find that you are accidentally engaging the slide lock and clucking up the cycling of the weapon, then I'd give a hearty AMEN! to the idea of changing the thumb position to high.

I've never seen it give anyone slide locking issues before, but there's a whole lot of crap in this world that I've never seen before, so YMMV.

[Misc Ex-Member]

As far as rotating the gun up in front of the face during reloads, I'm less concerned with loss of control of the weapon. If we want to make that case, we could easily say any manipulation of the weapon at all (strong hand only, reholstering, etc) constitutes a risk of loss of control. I'm more concerned about getting it fed quickly and keeping my eye on the bad guys. Where else would I put it when trying to feed it? Down by my waist? Center of chest? If I have it anywhere but up in front of me I'm taking my eyes off of what's in front of me for the second that I'm looking the magazine into the magazine well. While that's true no matter where the gun is, the further it is from that line of sight the longer it'll take to reacquire the bad guys once the gun is fed.

I try to tell myself to keep the gun almost artificially high (like right in my eyeline) when I'm reloading. If I don't, the natural tendency seems to be to let it drop while I reload, leaving me hunched over at the end of the reload. It seems smoother for me because I'm taking less time to reacquire the target once the reload is complete. Further, the sights come to the eye quicker because the gun stays at nearly the same level (eye level) for the duration of the reload.

I'm a lot more concerned that when I'm not in my workstation I am risking "control vulnerabilities" such as fumbling the insertion and dropping the mag on my toes.

I've never lost control of my gun while looking at it near my face doing a reload. I have lost control of a mag doing the reload, the gun is more important. I have 1 gun and a minimum of 4 mags on my body, sometimes 6 depending on what division I'm shooting.

When I asked about "control vulnerabilites" I was referring to weapon retention, not fumbling the gun or magazine. I am specifically referring to the practice of rotating the HG inboard and up with the stong side arm during the reload. This seems to be a very weak retention position and allows a threat to control the arm and gun if he gets ahold of either.

The alternative I am proposing is a reload at a "compressed ready" position, drawing the pistol in toward the chest but still pointing out. This seems a stronger retention position.

[John_Wayne777]

Originally Posted by Thekatar

You may not always have the advantage of using your favorite handgun. Cross-platform universal techniques can come in handy.

True....

But I own now or have owned darn near one of practically everything on the market as far as handguns go...Glocks, Sigs, Walthers, Berettas, USPs...The thumbs forward grip has never caused me any issue other than failure to have the slide lock to the rear on an empty magazine on some of the Sigs and occasionally on my Walther P99.

It's never interfered with the operation of a decocker on a Sig for me.

[John_Wayne777]

Originally Posted by Thekatar

When I asked about "control vulnerabilites" I was referring to weapon retention, not fumbling the gun or magazine. I am specifically referring to the practice of rotating the HG inboard and up with the stong side arm during the reload. This seems to be a very weak retention position and allows a threat to control the arm and gun if he gets ahold of either.

Possibly, but if your weapon is dry the primary concern you have is the dry weapon rather than hanging on to it.

I've never heard anyone cite retention concerns when using the method Jarret shows in the aforementioned video.

[Misc Ex-Member]

Originally Posted by gotm4

The timer has proven time and again that the more 'contact' you have with the pistol the more control you have of the pistol. The more control you have of the pistol the faster you can shoot it more accurately.

As Wyatt Earp said "Speed is fine but accuracy is final". But better yet why not be open minded enough to realize you need both speed and accuracy? Bad guys aren't going to give you a PAR time.

It may not work for you..............it's just a way, not the way.

I agree that 100% contact around the grip is crucial. After experimentation the thumbs-high seems like it would maybe lose about 3% total contact (tips of thumbs) with the pistol.

Understand about being open-minded - I hope that's what I'm doing here asking these questions! Believe me, I'm at the beginning of my path trying to find my own way. I am not stating that a technique is wrong or right, I'm asking, "why?"

[Robb Jensen]

Originally Posted by Thekatar

When I asked about "control vulnerabilites" I was referring to weapon retention, not fumbling the gun or magazine. I am specifically referring to the practice of rotating the HG inboard and up with the stong side arm during the reload. This seems to be a very weak retention position and allows a threat to control the arm and gun if he gets ahold of either.

The alternative I am proposing is a reload at a "compressed ready" position, drawing the pistol in toward the chest but still pointing out. This seems a stronger retention position.

Not a bad idea but hopefully you would be reloading behind 'cover' in the real world in a real gun fight. In the game.........aka competition the targets are unarmed and not shooting back. In a real gunfight the New York reload is the fastest reload (it's a 2nd gun for those unfamiliar with the term.)

That's why I constantly tell people 'competition' and 'training' are not the same. But both do complement each other.

[Misc Ex-Member]

Originally Posted by John_Wayne777

I've never heard anyone cite retention concerns when using the method Jarret shows in the aforementioned video.

Neither have I. That's why I'm asking about them.

[John_Wayne777]

Originally Posted by Thekatar

Neither have I. That's why I'm asking about them.

Might be another addition in the "reasons to pack a backup" list.....

If someone wants to grab my weapon when I'm reloading, they are in for a VERY unpleasant surprise....

[Misc Ex-Member]

Originally Posted by John_Wayne777

Might be another addition in the "reasons to pack a backup" list.....

If someone wants to grab my weapon when I'm reloading, they are in for a VERY unpleasant surprise....

That's exactly what I'm getting at.

I am viewing all of this through the eyes of a civilian carrying a concealed HG, acting as a lone operator against a lethal threat or threats. I am looking at the differences between transitioning to a HG on the carbine range, shooting competition style (as Jarrett excels at) and close range defensive handgunning where edged weapons, disarms and H2H may all come into play.

Thank you all for your thoughtful responses so far - I have much more now to consider. Hopefully I've presented some things to consider as well.

[rhino]

When I was being taught the basics of how to shoot, another element of the "thumbs forward" is that you have them both pointed at your target/threat.

It's kind of like how some people use their index finger on their support hand alongside the forearm of their long gun to "point" at the target/threat.

It may be a minor factor or just psychological, but anything that helps you index on your target/threat more naturally is a good thing, even if you are using your sights 100% of the time.

Another thing is that for 1911 shooters, the firing hand thumb is (in my case) always on top of the thumb safety, whether it's up or down. When firing, my thumb is riding on the thumb safety, making sure it stays down. That coincidentally has my thumb pointed toward the threat/target when I am pointed in or firing. Putting the other thumb in a corresponding position just seems more natural than letting it point upward.

Finally, I feel I have a more secure grip when I do it. The DTI/Farnam people teach the high thumbs grips, and it works well for them and their students, but it has not worked well for me when I've tried it.

[Misc Ex-Member]

Originally Posted by rhino

When I was being taught the basics of how to shoot, another element of the "thumbs forward" is that you have them both pointed at your target/threat.

It's kind of like how some people use their index finger on their support hand alongside the forearm of their long gun to "point" at the target/threat.

It may be a minor factor or just psychological, but anything that helps you index on your target/threat more naturally is a good thing, even if you are using your sights 100% of the time.

This is what I have heard as well, but is it true? People don't usually point with their thumbs, so I'm not sure.

Another thing is that for 1911 shooters, the firing hand thumb is (in my case) always on top of the thumb safety, whether it's up or down. When firing, my thumb is riding on the thumb safety, making sure it stays down. That coincidentally has my thumb pointed toward the threat/target when I am pointed in or firing. Putting the other thumb in a corresponding position just seems more natural than letting it point upward.

It's my opinion that what you just wrote above is the real reason why the thumbs-forward became the defacto grip.

Finally, I feel I have a more secure grip when I do it. The DTI/Farnam people teach the high thumbs grips, and it works well for them and their students, but it has not worked well for me when I've tried it.

It is exactly John Farnam and his AI's who persuaded me to change my grip and the way I reload. Their arguments were convincing to me, so I'm doing it their way until I can be convinced again otherwise. That's why all the questions.

[R Moran]

Don't know if I can add much to what has been said, but..

I've been shooting the thumbs forward for about 18 years now. Its the only grip I've ever been taught. I feel it gives you the most control over the gun, pointing your thumb forward, is akin to closing your fist, while pointing it upward, seems like a weaker grip.
Curling your strong thumb under your weak hand, just seems ludicrous, and unnatural to me, but some do teach and use it.
I've used it on everything, 1911'a, Berettas, Glocks, Sigs, H&K, M&P, SAA, COlt and S&W Revolvers, with no ill effect. No lock back or opens, etc. But, I do have small hands.

The reload, one quote I've heard in certain circles, concerning watching the target/threat during a reload is, "You'll only watch him kill you".

As Paul Howe once explained to class, your most important problem is the empty gun, nothing else matters but getting that loaded. Then you can worry about other stuff.
Paul also teaches a high ready, which puts the muzzle somewhere between eye and chin level, one of the big reasons for this, is retention. And I see reloading at about the same level, the same way.

Bob

[rhino]

Originally Posted by Thekatar

It is exactly John Farnam and his AI's who persuaded me to change my grip and the way I reload. Their arguments were convincing to me, so I'm doing it their way until I can be convinced again otherwise. That's why all the questions.

And that's what really matters ... if it works for you, then it DOES!

I'm not averse to new ideas and trying new methods, but I also believe in the "if it's not broken, don't fix it" philosophy.