pulling trigger after empty mag?

[jdub75]

I have a new shooting buddy (seriously, its not me!) that has a habit that I feel is seriously dangerous:
After shooting S/A pistols or his AR, he will drop the slide & pull the trigger. When I first started shooting with him, I tried explaining there is absolutely no reason to do this, and its actually a pretty dangerous habit. He tried telling me the person who taught his Concealed class told him this is a good idea. Well, I went to the same guy, and I didn't hear that part, nor do I see him saying this, as he's been thru probably 50+ classes with LFI & others.
Anyway, about 2 months back, he was shooting MY M&P, and after the 'last' round, he dropped the slide on an empty mag, and BAM! A ND right at his feet. There was me & 2 others had just taken their earplugs out. Obviously the last round FTF. We were shooting nickle cased rounds, and his pistol is a XD which has silver mags--so he glanced, saw silver, and assumed it was the mag (M&P mags are black). I lectured him for the next 1/2 hour, and he said that cured him.
Well, now he has an AR & is doing the same thing after he takes the mag out. I still believe this is not a good habit.

Please chime in...am I nuts or is he?

[rsgard]

new shooting buddy would be ex shooting buddy real quick. lives could be at stake.

[P2000]

At leagues or matches where they require you to have an empty pistol in the hoster, after your stage the range officer will have you show empty, then pull the trigger prior to re-holstering while still on the line, pointed downrange. If your friend does this prior to reholstering, he should be pointed downrange, and anticipate the gun going off. Anyone who will pull the trigger on a firearm and not expect it to go off has some very dangerous habits. To me pulling the trigger isn't dangerous, it is the manner in which this is done. If he does it like in a match, fine...but if he does it while dicking around with pistols on a tailgate or table, or while pointed indiscriminately...don't ever invite him shooting again.

[M4Fundi]

He is probably confused with what he was told.To "Make Safe"... First you remove the magazine to begin making safe, then you never "drop" the slide on an empty chamber, you "lower" it, then you drop the hammer while the gun is pointing safely down range and holster.

He has probably been taught the above by someone he respects and just didn't listen or understand what he was taught. You might explain this to him and have him read the IDPA rules.

[oldtexan]

Originally Posted by rsgard

new shooting buddy would be ex shooting buddy real quick. lives could be at stake.

I agree wholeheartedly.

[billy-s]

It is a method taught in the Canadian Forces and some other armies, HOWEVER...magazine is not in the weapon and when the person pulls the trigger the weapon is pointed at the target or downrange and the member is instructed to always expect that a round may discharge.

It is neither a good habit or a bad habit, I don't do this myself. The most important thing is that you physicaly and visually inspect the chamber, bolt face and magazine area to insure there is no rounds still present.

I've seen an MP-5 get locked to the rear and magazine taken off and it still fed a live round because the round did not eject but got partially stuck in the magazine housing.

The golden rule is physically and visually inspect the three points above and never assume the state of the weapon.

Hope this helps.

[Complication]

If he's still doing it with his AR, then he hasn't gotten it yet.

If someone has gotten lecture about how unsafe it is, has an ND which was probably inches from taking off a toe, gets another lecture about how unsafe it is, and then continues doing it on another weapon platform, that person has pretty solidly demonstrated their inability to be safe around firearms.

[Jim D]

It's that whole "striker forward, hammer down" BS that the gun games force you to do at matches.

There is ZERO reason to do it when you don't have a Match Director/Safety Officer telling you that you have to, or they'll disqualify you from the match. Even then, treat it like you would treat dry-firing at home. Take your time to ensure clear, sight in, point in a safe direction, etc.

A gunstore I used to work at had a range. That range did rentals. We had one worker who had a habbit of that "striker forward, hammer down" shit. They sent a round into our ceiling, inches past a customers head. Blind luck that no-one was killed.

If you have an instructor tell you its a "good idea", ask for your money back.

[glockkid88]

I was also wondering if you were at a range that requires you to run cold? I and all of my shooting partners as well as the training I have been to run a hot range and this is the right way imo. If you run a hot range you and everyone else knows that the guns are loaded. The only way a gun is not loaded is if we administratively unload the guns and everyone knows it e.g. dry fire drills, and packing up gear to leave.

[Robb Jensen]

We had a guy come by the shop about a week ago doing something very weird with his Glock. He said he learned this at Gunsite or FrontSight I can't remember which.

Anyway here is what he was doing.
He would lock the slide to the rear then use the slide stop lever to allow it to go forward.
Sometimes the trigger bar wouldn't reset. He said during actual firing it worked fine.
Then he locked the slide to the rear again and then pulled the trigger with the slide still to the rear.
I warned him repeatedly to never to this to a Glock because:
1. you can damage the trigger safety (making it not work when needed).
2. you can damage the frame.

I installed a new trigger bar in it for him and showed him that it would reset everytime. Again he resets the trigger, locks it to the rear and with the slide to the rear pulls the trigger again......Here's your sign.

[shootist~]

Every serious shooter I know stores their unloaded firearms hammer down on an empty chamber.

There is absolutely nothing wrong with dropping the hammer on an empty chamber assuming some very standard precautions are used. This is SOP and required (for the pistol) in most action type cold range matches (IPSC, IDPA, 3-Gun).

It's also a very good idea if you have people of varied backgrounds behind the line with holstered pistols.

Gun pointed down range (or in a safe direction if not at a range).
Mag out.
Rack the slide and visibly inspect the chamber.
Slide forward; hammer down; holster or bag it.

If not holstered or bagged, (i.e. placed on the shooting bench), it's normal (and frequently mandatory) to leave it locked open.

[Robb Jensen]

Originally Posted by shootist~

Every serious shooter I know stores their unloaded firearms hammer down on an empty chamber.

There is absolutely nothing wrong with dropping the hammer on an empty chamber assuming some very standard precautions are used. This is SOP and required (for the pistol) in most action type cold range matches (IPSC, IDPA, 3-Gun).

It's also a very good idea if you have people of varied backgrounds behind the line with holstered pistols.

Gun pointed down range (or in a safe direction if not at a range).
Mag out.
Rack the slide and visibly inspect the chamber.
Slide forward; hammer down; holster or bag it.

If not holstered or bagged, (i.e. placed on the shooting bench), it's normal (and frequently mandatory) to leave it locked open.

Yep and if your gun goes BANG! When you're unloading, showing clear and hammer down you get a nice trip to the Dairy Queen (DQ'd aka disqualified). I've seen it happen more than a few times.

[bkb0000]

the only thing your friend is doing wrong is failing to drop the mag. dropping the mag is part of weapon clearance for a reason.

one of the most common types of NDs comes from failing to drop the mag.

[shootist~]

Originally Posted by Robb Jensen

Yep and if your gun goes BANG! When you're unloading, showing clear and hammer down you get a nice trip to the Dairy Queen (DQ'd aka disqualified). I've seen it happen more than a few times.

Yep, a clearing DQ is rather embarrassing, but brain farts can and do happen - (especially with, but not just limited to, new shooters). A similar instance by some DH behind the line is what cannot be tolerated.

[Rosco Benson]

Originally Posted by Robb Jensen

Yep and if your gun goes BANG! When you're unloading, showing clear and hammer down you get a nice trip to the Dairy Queen (DQ'd aka disqualified). I've seen it happen more than a few times.

Perhaps some folks here are worrying too much about dropping the hammer or striker on an empty chamber instead of focusing on the real issue of muzzle control.

Bear in mind that one won't be able to field strip one's Glock for cleaning without dropping the striker.

Rosco

[Jim D]

Originally Posted by Rosco Benson

Perhaps some folks here are worrying too much about dropping the hammer or striker on an empty chamber instead of focusing on the real issue of muzzle control.

Bear in mind that one won't be able to field strip one's Glock for cleaning without dropping the striker.

Rosco

There is a difference in "dryfire practice" "disassembling a gun" and "I do this every time I finish shooting a string".

When you watch people who habitually do the "striker forward hammer down" shit after everything, they race through it. They're not doing visual and physical checks...it's always drop-rack-click (or boom).

Contrast that with the guy who physically and visually inspects the chamber and magazine well twice, puts the ammo in the other room, etc. Just because the gun gets dryfired doesn't mean it's all the same thing.

Setting off a round downrange when you didn't want to IS NOT ok, just because it was downrange.

[Redhat]

Too much "speed" clearing, just like "speed" holstering. This is something we have to harp on constantly during training and at the clearing barrel at the end of shift.

Some seem to think it's a sign of skill and will impress others.

[Rosco Benson]

Originally Posted by CoolBreeze

There is a difference in "dryfire practice" "disassembling a gun" and "I do this every time I finish shooting a string".

Well, you've got a point there. Every time the shooter finishes a string, he should scan, reload, and reholster. To do otherwise builds bad habits. This is one of the reasons I prefer a "hot" range. No one is under any illusion that they can be careless because "it isn't loaded".

However, if the shooter is finished shooting that weapon for the day and is going to return it to the range bag or its case, I see nothing wrong with clearing it, pointing it downrange, and dropping the hammer/striker.

Rosco

[Failure2Stop]

If you are going to drop the hammer/striker, you better triple check the three points (just like you would do prior to dry fire) first.

If there is a magazine present, a round in the feedway, or a round in the chamber when you release the slide/bolt, you are wrong. Period.

If you don't need to drop the hammer, don't.
I don't with ARs, or Glocks, as it isn't necessary.
I do with 1911s, but simply because I don't like to keep the hammers cocked (however, do I ease the hammer forward with my thumb and index finger of my non-firing hand).

Usually, once people have an ND they become obsessed with their unloading methods. If your buddy didn't learn his lesson, he might not be the guy you want to spend a lot of time around with loaded firearms. Just sayin'.

[John_Wayne777]

Originally Posted by shootist~

There is absolutely nothing wrong with dropping the hammer on an empty chamber assuming some very standard precautions are used. This is SOP and required (for the pistol) in most action type cold range matches (IPSC, IDPA, 3-Gun).

My personal opinion is that pulling the trigger should be trained as an action reserved for an occasion when you want the weapon to discharge as opposed to making it a part of a safety check.

I understand that in some of the competitions they require pulling the trigger...but I think that's an example of being so safe that it's unsafe. Pulling the trigger is how we make weapons go bang. I don't see the wisdom in teaching people that the action we take to make the weapon discharge should also be a part of the process we use to make sure the weapon won't discharge.