eye distance to iron sights and accuracy

[ejewels]

Hello,

I have been having an issue zeroing my new Troy back up folding rear sight. I'm using the stock front sight and am doing it at 50 yards. (IBZ). I have the gun on a UTG bipod as well, so it would seem that user error wouldn't be as evident. My question is, I know you are supposed to zero using the smaller aperture, which I did. How close up does my eye need to be to the peep hole? Very close? far? I was having issues zeroing it and even getting the bullets on paper, so I'm wondering if eye - sight distance matters? Any help appreciated.

[pilotguyo540]

If you are new to aperture sights, I would suggest moving away from the sights until your brain can instinctively center the front post. The idea being the rear aperture is smaller so your margin of error is smaller too. I also recommend shooting the smallest dot you can plainly see at that distance. aim small, miss small.

If you still have issues, check back and we can help. With the info you provided (not samn much) I would be suspicious about your firing hand, flinch, and/or optic mount.

[Mac5.56]

Originally Posted by pilotguyo540

If you still have issues, check back and we can help. With the info you provided (not samn much) I would be suspicious about your firing hand, flinch, and/or optic mount.

I agree.

How much experience do you have actually shooting a rifle, any rifle? This information may help us with understanding your problem.

[ejewels]

I'm still a noob. Maybe it is me, I'm definitely not suggesting it isn't. However can one still suck even while benching and using a bipod at 50 yards? I know with handguns the flinching and trigger control thing is extra important, but I thought that with rifles, especially benched it isn't as much an issue?

This may be the case, because my first 20 or so rounds were on target, only to the left which made me start clicking the rear sight for adjustments.

thanks again.

[pilotguyo540]

Sounds like flinch

Go to the 25 yard range and relax. Don't predict when the shot is going to go off. Let it surprise you. If you are not comfortable or feeling anxious, just set the gun down, take a breather and start over when you feel relaxed. Squeeze very slowly and try to maintain sight picture. Focus on the target. Your front sight should be a little blurry, and your rear sight just a fuzzy ring for your sub conscience to deal with. Oh yeah, loosen up the death grip with your hands.

Don't worry about being cool. Learn the fundamentals. I won't think you are a wuss at the 25 yard line with an AR. When you get the hang of it, stretch your legs and go out farther.

Consistency is the key.

[Molon]

Originally Posted by ejewels

I know with handguns the flinching and trigger control thing is extra important, but I thought that with rifles, especially benched it isn't as much an issue?

You thought wrong Grasshopper, especially since you are probably shooting your AR-15 at a much farther distance than you typically fired your handguns. If you're having troubling determining were to place your head in relationship to the rear sight, simply follow the old addage of NTCH; nose to the charging handle.




...

[ejewels]

thanks. I'm curious tho, even with a stable bipod, you can still flinch and pull your shot? seems to me the gun would be pretty stable no?

[Appalachian]

As all above plus put the tip of your nose consistently on the charging handle, it will help maintain a consistent sight alignment/ sight pic.

[ejewels]

Originally Posted by pilotguyo540

Go to the 25 yard range and relax. Don't predict when the shot is going to go off. Let it surprise you.

Since I suck and can't even consistently zero the rifle at 50 yards, would it be wise to zero it at my indoor 25 yard range first?

[Cagemonkey]

A good eye relief shooting irons when using the small aperture is nose to charging handle. I always found the closer the better, since your eye will see through the rear sight aperture and center the front sight post.

[ejewels]

Originally Posted by AppalachianTactical

As all above plus put the tip of your nose consistently on the charging handle, it will help maintain a consistent sight alignment/ sight pic.

interesting, I wasn't doing that. My nose is close, but not actually touching the handle. I just tried it. Seems that when I'm doing this, the hole is bigger and I can see the full sight picture. Will the recoil slam it in my nose? LOL

[T2CH]

Yes, A close zero is better than no zero. Indoors or out does not matter. The closer you are to target the less your mistakes will show. All above is good info and you should use it.
A flinch or jerk on any gun will result in a misplaced shot and result in terrible groups. Shoot at 25 until you can get a nice group, then stretch out to 50 and 100 yds.

[BH375]

ejewels,

As a new shooter, you have to apply the fundamentals consistently in order to shoot well, even with your rifle on a bench or bipod. You've got to do four things consistently well: maintain a steady position, maintain proper sight alignment, apply a steady trigger squeeze, and control your breathing. Shooting from a bench and/or bipod doesn't guarantee you a steady position (or any of the other fundamentals, for that matter); instead, it just impacts what a steady position is, relative to your situation.

If you are maintaining the same point of aim every time, and cannot get a consistent shot group, then you probably need to concern yourself first and foremost with grouping satisfactorily prior to trying to zero your rifle. In other words, you want to dry-fire and then live-fire until you can achieve a consistent, tight shot group (what the size of that group is, and how many rounds depends very much on what you're shooting in terms of equipment and ammo). Once you've done that (and only once you've checked that block), you can then progress to moving the sights to move the point of impact to where your point of aim is.

It will take me some time to access it, but if you'd like I'll post a set of dry-fire drills that we teach to new shooters to train them on these fundamentals. After working on those (with some coaching, if possible, from an experienced instructor), then you'll see much quicker progress.

VR,
BH

[pilotguyo540]

Originally Posted by ejewels

interesting, I wasn't doing that. My nose is close, but not actually touching the handle. I just tried it. Seems that when I'm doing this, the hole is bigger and I can see the full sight picture. Will the recoil slam it in my nose? LOL

No, but you may get an unpleasant puff of gas to the eye.

The nose to charging handle is good for consistency while standing, but you have a larger margin of error. You can mind fuck your sight position to death if you focus on the front sight instead of the target.

Look at it this way, nose to CH your aperture is (just a wild guess) 150 MOA, but further back you are at 25 MOA field of view. It will be easier to center your front post and your target in the farther aperture.

After a while your eye will know what to do and you can go nose to charging handle and make good shots at longer distances. Even with the large hole. Don't be in a hurry.

[JStor]

I suggest getting on some bags for zeroing. Bipods require a bit more attention to technique. Depending on how you are handling the weapon, you can have bipod bounce, sort of like shooting off a hard surface. You should also be supporting the rear of the buttstock with a gloved fist or small bag...just for zeroing, so you know the bullet is going to go where the sights are aligned. Then adjustments can be made for elevation or windage.

I use nose to charging handle for red dot and irons use.

[ejewels]

Thanks a lot guys for the help. I would love some dry fire drills if you're offering!

[SteveL]

Originally Posted by BH375

It will take me some time to access it, but if you'd like I'll post a set of dry-fire drills that we teach to new shooters to train them on these fundamentals. After working on those (with some coaching, if possible, from an experienced instructor), then you'll see much quicker progress.

VR,
BH

I'm not the OP, but I would appreciate it if you posted the drills.

[ejewels]

Originally Posted by JStor

I suggest getting on some bags for zeroing. Bipods require a bit more attention to technique. Depending on how you are handling the weapon, you can have bipod bounce, sort of like shooting off a hard surface. You should also be supporting the rear of the buttstock with a gloved fist or small bag...just for zeroing, so you know the bullet is going to go where the sights are aligned. Then adjustments can be made for elevation or windage.

I use nose to charging handle for red dot and irons use.

You know, i wondered this myself. Everytime the gun recoiled, it seemed to jolt the whole gun and bipod off the wood table I was on. Do you rest the barrel on the bags or the handguard when doing this?

[CLHC]

Originally Posted by ejewels

Do you rest the barrel on the bags or the handguard when doing this?

I'm no expert, but something about the "barrel harmonics" shifting the POI when resting on the barrel. Or did I read that wrong?

[BH375]

ejewels,

I'm going to lay out two things for you: a sort of a checklist of things that you ought to focus on right now in terms of mastering the fundamentals, and a set of drills that will help you to start to ingrain those fundamentals. Along the way, I'll try to share some of the "why" behind certain checklist items, as well as behind parts of the drills.

Right up front, let me tell you two limitations to all of this. First, I'm not going to be able to adequately address natural point of aim, which is going to affect how you shoot. I just don't know how to incorporate that into what I'm laying out for you. Second, I'll tell you that this checklist, and this set of drills, will only get you so far without an experienced, trained instructor or coach--someone who not only "gets it," but who understands how to identify it and how to explain it well.

That said, here goes...

Shooter's checklist. Every time you start to shoot, go through this mental checklist (with time, you'll ingrain these things and won't have to think through them deliberately), paying attention to steady position, sight alignment, steady breathing, and trigger squeeze:
1. Confirm your steady position (start from you and work out):
o Weapon firmly planted in the pocket of your shoulder;
o Consistent and solid cheek-weld;
o Tip of the nose as close to the charging handle as possible;
o Firing hand high on and firmly wrapped around the pistol grip--the v between thumb and trigger finger all the way up in the pistol grip-buttstock notch (leave it loose, and--just like with a pistol--you'll have a tendency to milk the grip and pull shots off-target);
o Elbows firmly planted, on the inside plane if possible;
o Legs & body flat to the ground (when firing prone--you want to have as much of you as flat on the ground as possible);
o Non-firing hand loosely grasping the rifle.
2. Check your aim (start from the front sight and work back in):
o Focus on the front sight post (though not to the exclusion of all else);
o Good & consistent eye relief (here's when NTCH is good for a new shooter like you--it helps you get one consistent sight picture, which is critical when grouping & zeroing);
o Eye not shuttering.
3. Check your breathing (you'll pay less attention to this the more experienced you become, but it's critical for a new shooter):
o Steady, controlled rise and fall of the chest;
o Proper breath hold (after the exhale);
o If you're not ready, start again, breath another cycle, and apply your breath-hold.
4. Smooth trigger squeeze:
o Smooth, steady squeeze of the trigger all the way through (no double-clutching, etc.);
o No jerking;
o Smooth and complete reset of the trigger before starting again (you're learning to apply the fundamentals, not learning CQB yet).

For our new shooters, we have those checklist items on a 5 x 8 card, and another shooter beside them as a coach, using the checklist. If you can, have someone do the same for you.

On the subject of steady position (the first fundamental), you ought to think of it in terms of a stable position having two aspects: the relationship between you and the weapon (hence the focus on the weapon tight in your shoulder, a good cheek-weld, etc.), and the relationship between you and the ground (hence the focus on getting as much of you flat on the ground as possible).

Now, once you understand and can start to apply the fundamentals, you can start the drill(s). It goes without saying that, at home, you're going to use an empty magazine, or a magazine with dummy rounds; in your case, always physically separate the live rounds from your weapon (i.e., in another room entirely) before you start. Then, you're going to do the following tasks, in sequence:
1. Assume the prone firing position (work mentally through the first two checklist items above).
2. Fire in the prone position (work through the last two checklist items above). The weapon will not fire.
3. Apply immediate action to your rifle (SPORTS) in the prone position (This might seem redundant, and you'll be tempted to omit this, but if you do it you'll handle almost any malfunction smoothly and efficiently; if you don't, you'll immediately identify yourself as that guy, like a monkey trying to wind a digital watch. Do the whole SPORTS now; you can abbreviate it as appropriate--say to Tap-Rack-Bang--later as you become more experienced).
4. Resume a good prone firing position (work mentally through the first two checklist items again).
That's going to count as one repetition. After one repetition, get up before starting the next, so you have to work through getting into the same stable position and applying the fundamentals time and time again. I recommend that, initially, you do at least 25 repetitions per day if your schedule allows (more is better), until you start to groove things in. We put these drill tasks on the other side of our 5 x 8 card as a reference. Once you can do them consistently dry-firing, you're ready to go to the range and start with grouping & zeroing.

I hope that helps; let me know if it isn't clear, or if it raises any questions

VR,
BH