1-4x Varible for HD?

[Tomac]

I have age-related astigmatism that's getting worse over time so Aimpoint/Eotech reticles are increasingly distorted.
How suitable would a 1-4x variable be for HD? I'm aware of the eye relief problems but have never used one before.
Any suggestions for an appx $400 pricepoint?
Thx!...
Tomac

[mbogo]

I think it is a fine compromise.

Leupold, Nikon, and Burris have several 1x-4x that would work nicely at that price point.

Keep it at 1x at all times (4x is useless at close quarters).

mbogo

[bp7178]

How big is your house?

I would, and always did, leave my 1-4x's on a QD mount. When the rifle was by the bed, it was with flipped up irons and a white light.

Glasses or not, I can make accurate fast hits at room distance off my front sight.

[jasonhgross]

HD = RDS > 1-4X

[Tomahawk_Ghost]

Originally Posted by bp7178

How big is your house?

I would, and always did, leave my 1-4x's on a QD mount. When the rifle was by the bed, it was with flipped up irons and a white light.

Glasses or not, I can make accurate fast hits at room distance off my front sight.

+1

You'll be better off using the CaveMan Eotech method inside you're house if you're using a rifle.

[5pins]

Have you looked through a reflex or a low powered ACOG? I have a slight astigmatism and have notice that the reticles of a reflex or an ACOG are much sharper then a red dot.

[shootist~]

Originally Posted by Tomac

I have age-related astigmatism that's getting worse over time so Aimpoint/Eotech reticles are increasingly distorted.
How suitable would a 1-4x variable be for HD? I'm aware of the eye relief problems but have never used one before.
Any suggestions for an appx $400 pricepoint?
Thx!...
Tomac

Same here with the addition of left eye dominance.

I haven't switched my Vortex PST 1-4 over to my HD carbine "yet", but I think it would be a viable choice based on my range time thus far.

It's proving to be just as fast and more accurate (both eyes open) at CQB ranges than Aimpoints *for me*. Aimpoints win by a little in low light without a backup light, but illuminated or not the PST seems to works pretty well. Of course neither work in zero light until you switch on the weapon light.

I have no opinion as yet on shooting from really awkward positions, but the eye box on the PST is large and eye relief is non critical.

ETA: The Vortex is ~$500. I have a long winded review through a couple of ranges sessions in this forum.

[bp7178]

Have you looked through a reflex or a low powered ACOG? I have a slight astigmatism and have notice that the reticles of a reflex or an ACOG are much sharper then a red dot.

I completley agree. TA31F and TR24G looked very sharp. I still liked the TR24 slightly better because of the diopter adjustment. I could dial the TR24 into the negative and shoot it w/o glasses.

Even still, for HD...and I don't know what kind of a gun battle you are going to have in your house at 4am, I would leave the scope off, run irons and white light. Probably nothing more than 200 lumens, depending on spill. Hit that white wall with a light when you just got out of bed and its one instant headache.

[SA80Dan]

Sure, a 1-4 is fine for HD. As has already been said, keep it on 1x.

I am particularly fond of my TR24 (red triangle) - no batteries required, no on/off - its always ready to go. Bit more than your price range ($650 or so street price), but worth the extra, IMO.

[Alaskapopo]

Originally Posted by bp7178

How big is your house?

I would, and always did, leave my 1-4x's on a QD mount. When the rifle was by the bed, it was with flipped up irons and a white light.

Glasses or not, I can make accurate fast hits at room distance off my front sight.

Optics trump irons in low light. I had a bear charge me at night and the gun I used was an 870 with Ghost ring sights and a surefire light. The sights were almost impossible to pick up in that fast moving low light encounter. I have had to use my Swarovski 1-6 variable in low light on a bear and it was much easier.
No more irons at night for me unless I have no other choice.
Pat

[Alaskapopo]

Originally Posted by Tomac

I have age-related astigmatism that's getting worse over time so Aimpoint/Eotech reticles are increasingly distorted.
How suitable would a 1-4x variable be for HD? I'm aware of the eye relief problems but have never used one before.
Any suggestions for an appx $400 pricepoint?
Thx!...
Tomac

I would try to find a good deal on a used TR21 1.25-4x. I got one recently for 450 bucks. I put that on my Marlin 45 70. Eye relief is not that much of an issue on 1.25 x. I much prefer a good variable to a red dot sight.
The TR 24 is a slightly better scope but it will cost you more. I recently picked up a TR24G with a Larue mount used for 750.

[bp7178]

Was the bear "charging" down your hallway at night having just burglarized your home?

[Belmont31R]

I would only use the 1-4X if your particular scope's illumination can overpower your light so you can still see the dot.



Jeff (USMC03), a SWAT LEO, had an article about using a Trijicon sight during a warrant/raid, and with the light on a subject wearing a light colored shirt he couldn't see his dot/reticle.



Thats one of the reasons the Short-Dot is still basically unmatched because a lot of the lower end variables don't have the illumination power to overcome this or in bright day light. Trijicon with its illumination will get washed out in the above circumstance. Granted you will still have a black reticle with a variable but on 1x if its FFP you'll barely be able to see it since its almost supposed to disappear for use with the dot but visible when you need the magnification.


Its something I don't think a lot of people are taking into account when purchasing some of these optics. If you have a light colored wall at home turn all the lights off at night, hit your light, and see if you can still see the dot. You should still be able to see it well because during a stressful situation you want it to stick out not say 'its ok I can kinda see it'.


Most rifle optics companies can put together a 1-4X scope, and even throw some illumination in it but be careful about short-changing your system with an optic that may fail you at the wrong time.



I don't use my Short-Dot equipped guns for HD simply because the illumination is not on all the time. I use an Aimpoint because it can be left on for a few years on a single battery. Understand the astigmatism thing since I have one in my left eye, and RDS's look like shit on my off side. My right eye is fine and I get a pretty clean dot indoors. Outdoors in natural light its a perfectly round dot. Just be careful about what you are putting on your gun that you need to deploy quickly in the night since it ideally needs to be ready to go when you pick it up...not having to remember to turn the illumination on, ect. I like the newer EOTech sights (EXPS3) but won't use them, either, since the illumination doesn't stay on. If it did Id be going through a battery every 1-2 weeks.

[dog guy]

Regarding reticle washout in the HD/white wall/too many lumens situation: doesn't the design of the TR24G or R reticle make this less of an issue? I don't have much trigger time behind mine yet, but that big black post has been very easy to pick up against brightly lit backgrounds such as sunlit fresh snow. If the background is bright and white, the post is very visible as a black shape, much like a front site post on steroids but without having to align it with a rear site aperture. If I shift the post over a dark object, the illuminated triangle shows up when the post disappears. Either way, I have a usable aiming point.

[Belmont31R]

Originally Posted by dog guy

Regarding reticle washout in the HD/white wall/too many lumens situation: doesn't the design of the TR24G or R reticle make this less of an issue? I don't have much trigger time behind mine yet, but that big black post has been very easy to pick up against brightly lit backgrounds such as sunlit fresh snow. If the background is bright and white, the post is very visible as a black shape, much like a front site post on steroids but without having to align it with a rear site aperture. If I shift the post over a dark object, the illuminated triangle shows up when the post disappears. Either way, I have a usable aiming point.

There are so many combinations of lighting that can occur during the night I would not rely on tritium, the black reticle or a weak illumination system to work in all conditions.


Irons have to be the worst at night, though, so any type of illumination is better than none be it an RDS or 1-4X optic. During some training I did we attached chem lights to green ivans at 25 meters, and shot at them at night. 20 rounds each, and the best anyone did with irons was 6 if I remember right. I was shooting with an EOTech, and hit 20/20.


You just have to have a system that works in as many situations as possible, and for me that means having something that will work against a variety of conditions at night and day. I don't think too many optics do that like a Short-Dot can. It doesn't matter if you're on white sand during the day or shooting against a guy wearing a white t-shirt at night while being lit up with a light. Use whatever you think will work for you but realize not all optics have the same capability or work as well as others do.


I don't think everyone needs to go out and buy a $2500 optic but since this thread is about home defense its a lot more critical than what to buy for a range toy and occasional training. I don't even use mine for HD because I want the constant on ability of the Aimpoint. My main point here is, at least to me, an optic used for HD should not depend on the background to be able to pick up the aiming point and should be able to be picked up when the lighting conditions change. One of the limitations of something like tritium at night is if you're in the dark and shooting into a well lit place. Even with the black reticle still there it can be hard to pick up based on the background. Having an optic where the background doesn't matter is a big plus to me. Relying on the black reticle is basically the same as not having illumination at all.

[SA80Dan]

Originally Posted by dog guy

Regarding reticle washout in the HD/white wall/too many lumens situation: doesn't the design of the TR24G or R reticle make this less of an issue? I don't have much trigger time behind mine yet, but that big black post has been very easy to pick up against brightly lit backgrounds such as sunlit fresh snow. If the background is bright and white, the post is very visible as a black shape, much like a front site post on steroids but without having to align it with a rear site aperture.

I very much agree. In the British Army we used the SUSAT sight, which has a reticle very much like the TR24, with the tritium glow at night, although in daylight the is no fiber optic illumination so the post is just black. Never had a problem with it through many deployments over a 12 year career. Perhaps that is why I am so comfortable with the TR24 post and triangle arrangement.

[Alaskapopo]

Originally Posted by bp7178

Was the bear "charging" down your hallway at night having just burglarized your home?

I am not sure why you posted this wise ass comment. Appartenly you don't appreciate how dangerous bears can be and have never had one charge you from less than 20 feet away in a dark alley.
Pat

[bp7178]

I am not sure why you posted this wise ass comment. Appartenly you don't appreciate how dangerous bears can be and have never had one charge you from less than 20 feet away in a dark alley.

You really didn't have any specifics as to distance or circumstance.

This being a HD thread, I didn't see how that applied. I think charging bear, I think open field or woods. HD to me means a very specific set of circumstance/use.

Jeff (USMC03), a SWAT LEO, had an article about using a Trijicon sight during a warrant/raid, and with the light on a subject wearing a light colored shirt he couldn't see his dot/reticle.

That was one of the reflex sights and a good article. In all fairness, if you hit a white wall with a light and look through a TR24, you can very easily make out the post/triangle. I do see what he is/was talking about with the reflex however.

One of the limitations of something like tritium at night is if you're in the dark and shooting into a well lit place.

That was my only gripe with the TR24. Everyone wants some fancy BDC reticle or a 1-8x Accupoint, I would love to see an active LED illuminations system, similar to a Tri-Power, in the Accupoint. The fiber optics have the capability of dumping huge amount of light into the reticle, but only if there is something for it to gather.

I would also like to see even an add-on LED module. Something you could attach over the fiber optics to dump light into it. The dimming is built into the sunshade, would be easy to do.

I had a TR24G, and I wonder if the TR24R would be better in this regard. When the green triangle is dim and set against amber lighting, street lights, it is pretty hard to pick up. I suspect the red may be better. I just don't know anyone who has one to try out.

Overall, the TR24 has enough of what i'm looking for that I'll probably get another one, this time a TR24R. Optically, I've found I like 1-4x better than the RDS/magnifier. When talking illumination, the advantage of the RDS is hard to dismiss.

Of course, the best of both seems to be the Short Dot.

[Alaskapopo]

Originally Posted by bp7178

You really didn't have any specifics as to distance or circumstance.

This being a HD thread, I didn't see how that applied. I think charging bear, I think open field or woods. HD to me means a very specific set of circumstance/use.

.

The bear was less than 20 feet from me when it charged in a dark alley. It had been in a hallway at the community colleges dorms prior to that. If the bear was in the open fields or in the woods I would not have even been involved. I am a cop not a hunter.

The situation was very simular to what a home defense situation can be in that it was very close range, the threat was very real and moving far faster than anyhuman could. The reason for the example was the low light. It was dark and if it were not for my surefire weapon light I would not have seen the bear. I was using the irons with a weapon light like the poster I had responded to was recommending. I was commenting on how that was not the best solution to that problem based on real world experience. I have also shot bears in the dark using my Swarovski Z6i scope on my patrol rifle. It was far easier to use due to the reticle illumination and the light gathering ability. As for the best low power variable in my opinion that currently is the Swarovski Z6i BRT.
Pat

[armakraut]

Did the bear meet his or her maker?