What is with people and the "my friend says..." nonsense?

[rob_s]

I first encountered this when I worked as a salesperson in a gun/army surplus/police supply store. Almost daily we would have a customer come in, look in the case, ask what we suggested, and after we wasted hours with the guy he would finally say "well, my sister's husband's uncle is a cop, and he said I should buy an xyz so I'm going to go with that." I always wondered if these people also bought the same car, pens, sunglasses, and underwear (ok, not really) as their sister's husband's uncle. Especially since after dealing with LE customers for 3 years it became evident real quick that most cops couldn't tell you a revolver from a semi-auto, and that their entire firearms knowledge was learned in the 15 minutes at the academy they spent on shooting.

Lately, the internet version seems to be the alleged "Operator" friend. The poster can rarely define what an "Operator" is, what the alleged "Operator" operates, or in fact what makes this friend qualified in ANY way to evaluate the relative merits of the offerings available on the commercial AR market. In fact, most often it seems that the "Operator" was issue only one brand of firearm, and from that either grew to love or hate that brand, and has since based their entire knowledge on the system on that one issued firearm.

This is not to say that there are not exceptions. Obviously the vast majority of the LE and "Operator" membership here are the exception as they have chosen to take the time to obtain, and share, actual qualified and quantified knowledge. But those same members know exactly what I'm talking about.

If you're wondering what prompted this post, go here. Yes, I was an ass to the guy, but I was an ass for a reason. And in the end, rather than explain what it is that he was alluding to he instead gets offended, tosses up his hands, and says "nevermind". Makes me wonder if perhaps what the "Operator" in question actually operates is a sewing machine, and if he can tell me if I'm better off with a Singer or a Kenmore.

Someone once said that converts are always the most devout practitioners and believers of any religion. This situation kind of reminds me of that. To most LE and "Operators", guns are a tool, they have little to no say in what tool they are issued, it costs them NO money, and they have little interest in learning any of the details of that tool beyond what the powers that be deem appropriate to teach them. On the other hand, a dedicated non-LE, non-Operator is much more likely to seek out the knowledge required to make a purchase with their own hard-earned money. I'd much rather take the advice of that guy than the guy that has never even fired a non-issued weapon.

[Harv]

Well.. According to this guy I know.. the reason posters do it.. is actually very simple

Cool by association... that's it..

Funny.. I spent over 20 yrs working for Uncle Sammy both full and part time.. and in all those years.. I never "MET" any serious Operators..

It always amazes me how guys who have never served a day in uniform, are lucky enough to know so many SEAL's or Green Beret's,etc..

And since THEY used Brand A.. it must be good..

Hell

The first 7-10 yrs of my career.. I never even knew what problems could be caused by loose carrier key's..But they did teach me to line up my gas rings to solve all my malfuctions.......

You have to learn to ignore people more.. life is a lot more pleasant that way...

[aloharover]

Originally Posted by rob_s

This is not to say that there are not exceptions. Obviously the vast majority of the LE and "Operator" membership here are the exception as they have chosen to take the time to obtain, and share, actual qualified and quantified knowledge. But those same members know exactly what I'm talking about.

Aren't operators the guys that work the special reaction team at the mall?

Great post over on FL by the way. Good info.
Thought I am not sure I agree with hitting a human sized target with a carbine out to at least 100m. At least 300 is how we trained

I also never realised that only FN supplied weapons to the military (other person not you) lol

Pete

[Don Robison]

I wouldn't worry about it Rob. FSN=drama much of the time. I pop in every now and then, but get tired of reading the "as good as" threads and soon move on to more substantial threads here and elsewhere.

[M4Guru]

To most LE and "Operators", guns are a tool, they have little to no say in what tool they are issued, it costs them NO money, and they have little interest in learning any of the details of that tool beyond what the powers that be deem appropriate to teach them

I agree with the first three parts of that, but the details of the tools "operators" use are something they will be very familiar with. You'd be hard pressed to find a guy I work with with little interest in his weapons and equipment in general. Most all of them have mastered their function and know the strengths and weaknesses of them very well.

Kind of funny, a guy who is neither Law Enforcement or a part of a specialized military unit telling the world how they think. I don't even think you're that far off the mark, and you're one of the people out there that "get it" when it comes to the need for training and self-defense, but you're kind of out of your lane on that one.

As far as the CBA thing...you would think people would have known by now that doesn't work. There are too many knowledgeable individuals out there on the internet, it simply doesn't work. However, on some sites like ARF.com, Glocktalk, HKPro, etc. you get the loonies in droves who hate to find out they bought a dog, or that Seal Team Delta Force Recon doesn't use their SW Sigma, etc. There is strength in numbers with these kinds, but luckily you always have the option of going somewhere less fanatical and erroneous.

If I had a dolllar every time someone on HKPro said US SOF uses the MK23 and that's it, I could retire rich.

[Razoreye]

LoL the other douchebag quit when backed in a corner!

[hldhard]

LE and "Operators", guns are a tool, they have little to no say in what tool they are issued, it costs them NO money, and they have little interest in learning any of the details of that tool beyond what the powers that be deem appropriate to teach them.

But it just so happens that tool is one of the most popular Assault Weapon in the world. A weapon that has entire Forums dedicated to it. Like here. When you carry an AR for 22+ years you cant help but learn a lot more then what people tell you. I have never been around an Operator that didn't want to know the inner workings of their primary weapon.
Not arguing, you make a very valid and interesting point. But I think what you describe pertains to the masses. Such as a PVT in the Infantry. I don't know what or if there is any real definition Operator.
The definition I do hear the most to describe an Operator. A Member of the Military who volunteers x3 to serve in a SO unit. A unit that required him to pass some form of qualification school or exercise. He has also been serving in said unit for close to or more then ten years.
Anyone who fits that description has a whole lot of interest in the primary fighting tool they carry. They also do have a say in what is issued. More times then most people think. If not directly their input is listened to. The AR in its many different forms is still around because the majority of operators don't want anything else now. Hell, just look at some of the tools that have been offered. What ever happened to the Gas Piston hype. Reading the Internet Forums you would think Operators were screaming for it. No, we were screaming give it more time.
I believe several problems not seen on The Discovery Channel are now being addressed. These problems were discovered after it's limited issue for field testing. If we would of listened to places like xxxxxxxx and replaced all of the Army's uppers with the 416..................Oh S#*t comes to mind.
Operators often have a choice of different Weapons to use. They are used but for a specific situation or mission requirements. For every day comfort, reliability and ease of use. He is going to pull the AR out of the box.
We are talking about the AR. It's not a complicated tool to begin with. It's not that an Operator has little interest in learning about the AR. It's Operators see it from a much different perspective. It's a hands on perspective.
You just don't see many threads about how effective the M4 is at 300M. But Operators talk about it all the time. You will see plenty of threads discussing the release date for xxxxxxx industries Foliage Green line of AR Accessories thou.
I ordered an FAL this year. I knew nothing about them. In one week of research I was running with the best of them over at the FAL Files. I did have an advantage. I knew what was important because I shot plenty of 308 before. Just wasn't with an FAL. But a shooter is pretty much going to have the same experience firing 308 thru a 16" Barrel. Be it attached to an AR or FAL.

[rob_s]

I should point out that when I use the term "Operator" I'm using it in the same sense that far too many others do; to describe someone (anyone?) in the military. My impression of most people with an "Operator" friend is that they have a friend who was a radio operator in the rear somewhere and who has talked at length about all about the problems the DI M4 has from reading that one article in the Army Times and from speaking to the many "Delta Friends" that he has.

On a side note, it seems that most "Operator Friends" in turn have "Delta Friends" that they get all the good intel from.

[rob_s]

Which I guess is part of my point.

"Operator" has become quite the buzzword of late. Used mostly, it would seem, by people (like me ) that have no idea what it means.

[Misc Ex-Member]

..........

[Boomer10]

I'm a KC-10 boom operator, so now you can say that you know 2 real "operators".

[Batt 57]

I used to operate fire trucks so I am now an "ex-operator" cool.

[Gunfixr]

I have been operating machinery for 20 or so years now and operate a forklift rather regularly, how's that?? I guess that makes me an "experienced operator".

[John_Wayne777]

Operators answer phones.

Officers, Soldiers, Sailors, Airmen, Marines, Agents...those are the guys that kick a$$.

It does seem like everybody on the internet with a silly opinion knows a guy who was some sort of snake eater doing "black ops" or something, but such is life. Just like there are millions more Vietnam vets out there than there are people who actually served in Nam....

Thankfully I am immune to the "cool by association" disease. I realized long ago that I am not cool, and will never be cool....EVER. And no amount of weapons instruction from a former SBS vet, or a DEVGRU SEAL, or a guy like Larry Vickers or Ken Hackathorn, or no amount of time pulling the trigger beside SWAT guys or SF soldiers or Blackwater contractors is ever going to make me cool.

I'll still just be the same uncool dude I have always been...but I might just come away with a slightly better understanding of what the world looks like through the eyes of the guys who have to wear the "cool" stuff and shoot the "cool" weapons to stay alive.

That's good enough for me.

And hell, every now and then you get to buy one of the cool real life HSLD types dinner and get to listen to stories that most other people don't get to hear. It's amazing just how much stuff a guy like that is willing to teach you for the price of some decent seafood.

[Kisara]

This is the only operator I can think of:


I gave up on helping the know-it-all types described in the above replies. Let them buy all the tactical black SpecOps/Tapco crap they want, and their Wolf ammo too. That was the main reason I left one famous board and migrated towards Grant's old board years ago. I think its probably better that if those "Friend of operator" types are going to be armed, that they are armed with crap.

[hldhard]

Originally Posted by rob_s

Which I guess is part of my point.

"Operator" has become quite the buzzword of late. Used mostly, it would seem, by people (like me ) that have no idea what it means.

It was originally used to identify a person role or status in a Unit. Not for the purpose of who is a puke and who isn't. It was required just to make things run smooth.
You have many of the support personnel who are assigned there by big Army. Then you have the people they support. Volunteers who attended some type of try out or qualification course and were selected to work there.
IMO, support people probably came up with Operator. It's a simple and easy word to let others know they work in a support capacity. "I'm assigned to xxxxx of the xxxxxx but I'm not an Operator. Believe it or not many of the support guys are very carefull as not to give the wrong impression.
Just a convenient term that was picked up by the Armchair warriors. Another word once commonly used to identify yourself or others. Now it's one of those words that make the people it once identified to cring or look away in embarrassment. I think the LEO Community experiences a little of this with SWAT. Thou SWAT seems to be creeping back in.
I don't think I ever heard anyone in SF say they were a Green Beret. Why, because it's what the MSN and Hollywood picked up and ran with. It's a word associated with a 5'3" Italian running around with a Bandanna and a Compound Bow that shoots exploding Arrows.
If the Duke was still around he would of put the Boots to Sly a long time ago. Only then would the Beat Downs begin

[KevinB]

HINT:
M4Guru
Industry Professional

I dont want to be an ass, but he gave the descriptive text of what the .soc description is for that term.
A lot of people dont understand that - and what it REALLY means. It now has been adopted to denote a shooter in a Tier 1 unit (not just the initial unit).

Problem is the term is getting used way to often to refer to people who dont fall into that segment - and it gets confused.

[tjhjunk]

Let me first say that I have never been in LE or have I ever been in the military, but I would to thank all of you who have so freely put yourselves in harms way to protect my family and way of life. Your courage and patriotism is what makes this country great.

I have been on a quest to purchase my first AR and have got the most useful information here. The people here are not bound by useless marketing rhetoric. I tried to ask around locally but was met with "man I just go with what they issue"
or "these are on sale".

So thank you for the time you spend sharing useful information with people like me who I know must be irritating. I have been taught that to get the right answer you have to ask the right person . Tim

[hldhard]

Originally Posted by KevinB

HINT:
M4Guru
Industry Professional

I don't want to be an ass, but he gave the descriptive text of what the .soc description is for that term.
A lot of people don't understand that - and what it REALLY means. It now has been adopted to denote a shooter in a Tier 1 unit (not just the initial unit).

Problem is the term is getting used way to often to refer to people who don't fall into that segment - and it gets confused.

That last part is what I was trying to say. Yes it started in Tier one. But was quickly picked up by other units. The first time I head it used was from the support personnel. Like I said, they used it to easily describe their position. Personally I hate the word. Right before I retired a lot of the new guys were using that word. Myself and others were always quick to educate them "we are not FU^*#ING Operators.

[C4IGrant]

What Rob is saying is annoying and I see it all the time. What many Civy's do not know is that just because someone was in the Military or is LE, doesn't mean they know ANYTHING about weapon or what makes a weapon quality.

My other favorite thing is when I get someone that just bought an AR and has all of 500rds through it and tell's me that I don't know what I am talking about. I do this (build guns) for a living. Day in and day out, I am assembling AR's from the ground up. This guy has never even taken his bolt out of his carrier.



C4