BattleComp tracking pattern?

[YVK]

Haven't seen this in any threads, may have missed something.

I've been looking at how BC tracks on target for a couple of weeks, and I have rather mixed feelings. I know that device has been received with great enthusiasm; just wondering if it is me who is weird.

Observations were made comparing 2 BCs - 1.0 and 1.5 mounted on 16 and 14.5 inch barrels respectively - to 2 PWS units also mounted on 16 and 14.5 inch barrels. Everything is in 5.56 caliber and, with exception of SCAR, all gas systems are midlength. I don't know if I can muster a better sample size.

I found that BC has a quick lateral displacement off target, to the side opposite of support hand. It is nearly perfectly horizontal, and then it comes back on target fast. There is no muzzle lift or dip.
PWS has less linear response, it kind of hovers over the target, but overall displacement off target is less pronounced. I find that arc of tracking with BC is quite longer than with PWS.

Has anybody else had the same impression?

I do have one request. The above info came from shooting 5.5 circle targets at 50 yards in standing position. This is what's relevant to me, and that's how I make my judgments on muzzle devices. If you are not doing much of that kind of shooting, please don't post here.
I am neither interested in hearing how muzzle doesn't move when one's shooting paper plates at 10 yards, not do I think one can evaluate muzzle devices on short distances. Thanks.

[mattj]

I have a 14.5" middy + BC 1.5" and don't notice sharp lateral displacement like you describe -- I'd go so far as to say that as long as it is timed properly on your barrel, it HAS to be how you hold the gun or something, as there is nothing about the BC's design that would cause what you are describing.

One possible explanation: the BC seems to combat muzzle rise more than it does actual straight back recoil. It could be that if you are used to more aggressive brakes that decrease the actual recoil more, that there is something about how you hold the gun or shoulder it that induces lateral movement under straight back recoil, so when you compare the BC to a more aggressive true brake, the effect is magnified due to the increased reward recoil (compared to the more aggressive true brake).

I bet if you play with how you hold/shoulder the weapon, that you can get that displacement to disappear or even go the OTHER way depending on your stance... sorta the same principal as controlling "bipod hop" with a bolt gun.

[Stickman]

Originally Posted by YVK

Has anybody else had the same impression?

No.

I'm waiting to get some more BC units so I can swap out all of my PWS to BC. I prefer them that much.

[Wormydog1724]

I've had some trigger time behind the Battle Comp and haven't noticed any of that. I've got quite a few vids on my YouTube channel of me shooting it in matches with the camera from a 3rd person view and on the gun as a first person type view. I think that they really show BC's true nature. Not saying this because they gave me a shirt to wear to shoot in. I really do think they are the best bang for the buck in terms of tactical compensators.

[YVK]

First, I went and edited my post - "sharp" was a wrong word to describe dot's movement. The correct word is quick.

Yes, I thought the grip could be a culprit, but it was not. I varied my grip in a couple of ways shooting strong-handed, hoping that less aggressive hold would nullify it. No dice. In addition, I shot it weak-handed too - with same result.
The only thing I didn't think of doing was to shoot it one-handed.

[YVK]

Originally Posted by Wormydog1724

I've had some trigger time behind the Battle Comp and haven't noticed any of that. I've got quite a few vids on my YouTube channel of me shooting it in matches with the camera from a 3rd person view and on the gun as a first person type view. I think that they really show BC's true nature. Not saying this because they gave me a shirt to wear to shoot in. I really do think they are the best bang for the buck in terms of tactical compensators.

Do you have a link to gun-mounted camera shots?

[markm]

I have no use for either of them. But the PWS works better but at the expense of more noise and blast.

[Wormydog1724]

Originally Posted by YVK

Do you have a link to gun-mounted camera shots?

A few of the "better" ones.

Some CQB shoot house at the end.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NWahvUaoQqQ

My first rifle match
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2tnwtILJH3g

Some weak-hand in this one *noticed some lateral movement when shooting weak handed. Attributing that to my lack of experience shooting weakhand.*
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hqEiGKjh6yI

No 1st person view here and pmag failure at the end
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iOjkUrae29M


ETA: I guess these really aren't "intermediate distances" like you were wanting. But maybe it'll still help you.

[YVK]

Originally Posted by markm

I have no use for either of them. But the PWS works better but at the expense of more noise and blast.

I've asked a very specific question, not whether you have a use for them, or what works "better". All I want to know is what people see their dot do when shooting smaller targets off hand at intermediate distances with BC on their guns. Thanks.

[YVK]

Originally Posted by Wormydog1724

A few of the "better" ones.

Some CQB shoot house at the end.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NWahvUaoQqQ

My first rifle match
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2tnwtILJH3g

Some weak-hand in this one *noticed some lateral movement when shooting weak handed. Attributing that to my lack of experience shooting weakhand.*
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hqEiGKjh6yI

No 1st person view here and pmag failure at the end
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iOjkUrae29M

Thanks man. That doesn't help me though since I can't see dot/reticle movement. Externally, my muzzle doesn't move much as well. It's dot's movement that bothers me.
Nice shooting, btw.

[Wormydog1724]

thanks

[mattj]

Originally Posted by YVK

First, I went and edited my post - "sharp" was a wrong word to describe dot's movement. The correct word is quick.

Yes, I thought the grip could be a culprit, but it was not. I varied my grip in a couple of ways shooting strong-handed, hoping that less aggressive hold would nullify it. No dice. In addition, I shot it weak-handed too - with same result.
The only thing I didn't think of doing was to shoot it one-handed.

Tried playing with how the stock sits on your shoulder / the angle of your body with respect to the stock?

[seb5]

YVK,

I've never noticed it with the 5 BC's I have mounted, so today at the range I put up paper plates at 50 and shot as you requested. From an accuracy stance, which I rarely use anymore as it relates to nothing I do, I too noticed the lateral displacement. I believe it has to do with the mechanics. Standing unsupported is our weakest position with the least support which causes you to attempt to stabilize your muzzle. By using a small amount of force to stabilize the rifle you have it locked in, so when you shoot it follows the path of least resistance which is away from your support hand. The BC's design ensures it doesn't rise, your elbow keeps it from dipping or going towards your weak side, so your support hands pushes it away.

If that type of shooting is what you regularly do I would think there may be other options that would be as effective for you with a lower price point.

[Marty916]

During a very early local demo we ran, we had shooters run one of our BC equiped rifles for comparison purposes. I noticed a slight lateral movement with one shooter. He didn't notice it but I caught the movement. I found this odd as the BC is a symmetrical device and should not exhibit this sort of artifact. The shooter was right handed and the slight movement was to the right. I then asked a left handed shooter to give it a go using the same riflle, same mag with the same ammo, same shooting station, same stance and hold. I noticed a slight movement to the left that he also didn't notice. I don't like to draw any conclusions on a data set with an N of 2 but found this an interesting observation. You might try using a sandbag, bipod or other support and see if the muzzle still wants to move laterally. This will take any operator induced movement out of the equation. I would be very interested in your results.
Marty

[sinister]

Subjective evaluations aren't going to beat documented tracking. You'll probably need to shoot the same rifles and carbines and track the actual deviation off center-of-mass using a NOPTEL, SCATT, or RIKA.

Shooter movement doesn't lie when you can see the track yourself.

[GTifosi]

Originally Posted by Marty916

I found this odd as the BC is a symmetrical device and should not exhibit this sort of artifact.

Except that by the very act of holding the rifle things become asymetrical.

EG: AK 'slant' brake is angled the way it is for a right handed shooter to help push against that rightward jump. Change to left handed shooter and the brake has to be adjusted accordingly or the brake becomes ineffective.

You could spend an afternoon fiddling with shim washers to clock the BC to work better with dominant hand shooting, but that will in turn create some sacrifice on the off hand side of things or vice versa.

[ucrt]

.

Just two questions:

If the timing is off by someone "eyeballing" the BC, could this be causing the lateral movement?

Would it be possible to time the BC to compensate for the support arm that is being discussed?

Thanks.

.

[YVK]

Originally Posted by mattj

Tried playing with how the stock sits on your shoulder / the angle of your body with respect to the stock?

Nope. That part I am not going to change. The device has to work for me, not me working around the device to make it happen.

Originally Posted by seb5

YVK,

I've never noticed it with the 5 BC's I have mounted, so today at the range I put up paper plates at 50 and shot as you requested. From an accuracy stance, which I rarely use anymore as it relates to nothing I do, I too noticed the lateral displacement. I believe it has to do with the mechanics. Standing unsupported is our weakest position with the least support which causes you to attempt to stabilize your muzzle. By using a small amount of force to stabilize the rifle you have it locked in, so when you shoot it follows the path of least resistance which is away from your support hand. The BC's design ensures it doesn't rise, your elbow keeps it from dipping or going towards your weak side, so your support hands pushes it away.

If that type of shooting is what you regularly do I would think there may be other options that would be as effective for you with a lower price point.

Seb, I don't do any pure accuracy work. My measuring stick is MNQ because it is fast, easy to set up, well validated and reproducible. Since it is a timed drill, it can't be called just an accuracy test. Since it calls for multiple follow-up shots from 50 yards, it is a measure of accuracy and control.
I think your explanation is spot on, I am just perplexed at amount of movement I get.

Originally Posted by Marty916

I don't like to draw any conclusions on a data set with an N of 2 but found this an interesting observation. You might try using a sandbag, bipod or other support and see if the muzzle still wants to move laterally. This will take any operator induced movement out of the equation. I would be very interested in your results.
Marty

Marty, thanks for chiming in. I was hoping that one of you guys will say something since I am sure you're getting all the feedback from various users. So far your N is 4, as I know of another one user who alluded to concerns with BC tracking; however, I don't know if lateral motion is his issue. Overwhelming majority of users are quite happy.
I have started shooting BC only recently so the impressions so far are only comparative and non-diagnostic. I'll certainly shoot it off bags, one-handed etc to understand this better. As I said above, I think seb5 is right - the blast doesn't let it go down, the comp doesn't let it go up, the support hand doesn't let it go left (in right handed shooter), so there is only one way. Perhaps other folks are more skilled or have tuned in into BC better.
I'd certainly post my observations here.

Originally Posted by sinister

Subjective evaluations aren't going to beat documented tracking. You'll probably need to shoot the same rifles and carbines and track the actual deviation off center-of-mass using a NOPTEL, SCATT, or RIKA.

Anybody has these toys locally? That would certainly be interesting. Do they differentiate an intrinsic rifle/comp performance from system (rifle/shooter) as a whole performance?
Short of that, what I see is what I say. During recent training event [that you visited] I dropped one shot out of center "this counts" zone on a final 50 yard MNQ. I shot it with 14.5 middy with PWS , and the dot never left outlines of silhouette. With BC, the arc moves beyond right edge of target stand before it comes back.

So here is a device that costs reasonable amount, doesn't trigger asthma attacks by kicking out loads of dust, keeps muzzle flat - and I can't run it. What a luck...

[nowayout]

Take a close look at 1:25-1:28 I think I see some of the movement the op speaks of.

Originally Posted by Wormydog1724

A few of the "better" ones.

Some CQB shoot house at the end.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NWahvUaoQqQ
.

[YVK]

Nowayout, I know what you're talking about, but in this case I'd defer to a shooter to make the call. If he says he has it on solidly, I wouldn't dispute it based on outside observation. There's got to be some movement there so we are probably seeing that.