A tribute to Carlos Hathcock: Examining the infamous "shot through a scope" shot...

[TRIDENT82]

Hi guys, recently I read two books based on the legendary life and career of Carlos Hathcock.

For those who are not familiar w/ this truly amazing gentlemen, wiki has a good summary and I'm quoting it's actual text on the "shot through a scope" by Carlos Hathcock which has been the source of much debate, and interest as to whether this is really fact or fiction.

"One of Hathcock's most famous accomplishments was shooting an enemy sniper through the enemy's own scope, hitting him in the eye and killing him. Hathcock and John Roland Burke, his spotter, were stalking the enemy sniper in the jungle near Hill 55, the firebase from which Hathcock was operating. The sniper had already killed several Marines and was believed to have been sent specifically to kill Hathcock. When Hathcock saw a flash of light (light reflecting off the enemy sniper's scope) in the bushes, he fired at it, shooting through the scope and killing the sniper. Surveying the situation, Hathcock concluded that the only feasible way he could have put the bullet straight down the enemy's scope and through his eye would have been if both snipers were zeroing in on each other at the same time and Hathcock fired first, which gave him only a few seconds to act. Given the flight time of rounds at long ranges, both snipers could easily have killed one another."(Wikipedia:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carlos_Hathcock)

After being wildly curious about this topic, and then watching Mythbusters all but call this humble warrior a liar while trying to confirm or deny this "shot through a scope" kill, I went ahead and started to formulate how I might try this for myself and incorporate the gun I love, the AR15...and in this case, specifically a light precision AR suited for the particular task at hand.

Mythbuster footage:
http://splodetv.com/shot-through-scope-myth

**Basically their attempt was garbage since they did not acct. for the optic that the NVA sniper would have been using vs. the much, much more robust modern day optics.

Mythbusters footage take 2
So the shortbus riders amended their procedures and revisited the myth and produced this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yCV75...eature=related

Upon even further researching...I came across a better attempt at shining light on the possibility of this and after watching this video concluded I would be at least attempting to evaluate this on my own the best way I could:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9As6AMGifSY


So now you guys should be pretty well caught up or versed on this topic and so I present to you my own personal tests, findings, and ultimately conclusion on whether Carlos Hathcock's "Shot through a scope" kill could be possible in real life.

[TRIDENT82]

The setup and procedure:

I used both modern day 3-9x typical hunting optics as well as modern day red dot's that from all accounts are very close to what the NVA's optic would have been like to shot through vs. the modern variable optics being no where close to what the NVA sniper would have been using and all should agree on that point.

I spent several days constructing the overall setup and how I would record it so that I could document it, and share it with others. I used 3 camera's in the testing, all shots were fired from 100yds on the tee. Both my SPR and my make shift optic device had bubble levels that were raised to the same height and then leveled perfectly. Now considering that in order to do this evaluation the way I did, sub MOA precision is mandatory for each shot given the objective lenses are what they are, and the distance being covered...Between the shooter, the AR15, and the ammo, this turned out to be quite a challenge even @ 100yds. If you note I was just slightly off the only one I didn't get just where I wanted it, and it missed it's intended mark by no more than 1/4". So with that said, I couldn't use FMJ or really anything but a few loads and I picked the hornady 55gr. vmax since I knew it would land where I wanted it to every last time.

Here is the entire setup just prior to testing.:



Zeroing the gun perfectly for these particular shots....note the two diff. groups, with the final 2 zeroing shots being those two on the upper circle that perfectly split across the bullseye from one another.

[TRIDENT82]

Results and conclusion:

My Youtube video...Carlos Hathcock's "shot through a scope" using a SPR:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K3gBbYAngJQ

Various shots of the aftermath and a few "money shots" captured from still frames of the video footage.

Here is the perfectly executed model of the lot....perfect shot placement and a perfect through and through that just vaporized the internal components and glass, note in the video how little the actual optic moves when shot. Bottom line is that is one dead NVA sniper behind that optic.



Another perfect through and through and this would be the last 100% successful "shot through a scope" of the day which was more than enough and was tickled to get two really spectacular results in them which go a long way into putting validity into the original acct. of Carlos's shot.


More carnage...


Few action stills....





As you can see somewhat in the pics and video that I failed to exit any of the variable powered scopes however the last one filmed in the sniper's pov really came close but no cigar. It went through the red dots like a knife threw hot butter but on the very far left one was the one mistake I made and I hit the optic but it was low and to the left by about 1/4" results in not actually going lens to lens through. Ultimately, I concluded for myself that at least nobody can ever say he is a liar given that this is in my estimation a very achievable shot when looking specifically at his reported shot. This would mean shooting through a non modern optic with a larger caliber at a cpl. hundred yds. and while it would be tough as hell to hit the actual objective lens at that distance, it's certainly doable...just maybe not repeatable, one shot to the next.

[chavez_e_chavez]

that one hell of a recreation!!! The video link will not work, i really want to see that!! About how long did it take to do the whole experiment? What did you shoot, some barska scopes??

[jonconsiglio]

I don't know....

[GTifosi]

Mythbusters..... The Wikipedia of cable TV.

Very kind of you to go through all that and share with everyone.

I've never had any doubt that the shot could and did happen, but seeing more confirmation makes for some nice icing anyway.

All it takes is skill, a bit more skill, oh, and some skill helps. Then 'mabe' a dash of luck and a pinch of excellent scenario, which with skill, one can healp create.
Obviously Carlos Hathcock had it in spades.

[chavez_e_chavez]

Originally Posted by jonconsiglio

I don't know....

You dont know what??

[40Arpent]

Holy shite, Trident....that is just outstanding! I love it! When I read the book many, many years ago, I knew right then and there that someone would challenge the claim. I didn't care, I was going to believe it no matter what. I intentionally ignored those Mythbusters episodes...mattered not to me.

-Pete

[jonconsiglio]

Originally Posted by chavez_e_chavez

You dont know what??

I had typed something about an interview I saw with him, but can't remember exactly what he said.

It was a lucky and ideal situation for the shot. I believe he was using a 30-06, plus can you imagine the scope he was using? They went into detail on one of those shows about a few other of his few hundred kills and not only did the guy possess great ability, he had the mindset and held his shit together when it mattered most.

I don't know about anyone elses experiences here, but when someone is trying to kill you, it makes the simplest of tasks much more complicated and reactions have to be in split seconds.

I don't follow this stuff at all, but it's interesting to watch if there's a show about it.

[ICANHITHIMMAN]

lol trident you got alot of time on your hands pretty cool way to spend the day

[badness]

i seen the mythbuster episode. But damn, i didn't think anyone would actually go out and try it themselves. Pretty impressive.

[40Arpent]

Originally Posted by jonconsiglio

I had typed something about an interview I saw with him, but can't remember exactly what he said.

Excerpted:
Carlos served in Viet Nam in 1966-1967, and again in 1969. On his first tour, he used primarily
the Winchester Model 70 Target rifle in .30-06, with an 8X Unertl target scope having outside
adjustments. Speaking of this combination, he noted, "I loved it. I thought it was great, at the
time." Was the scope reliable in its adjustments and return to zero? "Yes, it worked well. I did
take off the recoil springs, however. I preferred returning the scope to battery myself each time I
shot, because then I knew it went back to the same place each time." [Readers may recall that
Hathcock had extensive competitive experience with this rifle/scope combination prior to his
arrival in Viet Nam.] Despite his prior exposure to handloaded target ammunition in .300 Win.
Mag. for competition, Carlos commented that the accuracy of the rifle was good with issued Lake
City Match ammo. and that he never used handloads to enhance accuracy. However, the Unertl
target scopes did have a tendency to fog in wet weather, which hampered his effectiveness.

[chavez_e_chavez]

Originally Posted by jonconsiglio

I had typed something about an interview I saw with him, but can't remember exactly what he said.

It was a lucky and ideal situation for the shot. I believe he was using a 30-06, plus can you imagine the scope he was using? They went into detail on one of those shows about a few other of his few hundred kills and not only did the guy possess great ability, he had the mindset and held his shit together when it mattered most.

I don't know about anyone elses experiences here, but when someone is trying to kill you, it makes the simplest of tasks much more complicated and reactions have to be in split seconds.

I don't follow this stuff at all, but it's interesting to watch if there's a show about it.

totally agree with you!! This was a Awesome sniper-vs-sniper duel and WE WON!!!!! Great documentary I watched on it..

[Cameron]

That is awesome!

Great job Trident!


Cameron

[usmcvet]

Semper FI Gunny!

[Ferris2son]

History Channel
Sniper-Inside the Crosshairs

Great show. They looked at great shots in history and tried to duplicate them. They got the same results as Trident reports.

They featured two Hathcock incidents. The second was a 16 kill incident with an M-14, at night.

Great show.

[Army Chief]

Very much enjoyed reading this report.

I would have never thought to do this, much less set up the shots, though I too was left to wonder what (if anything) the Mythbusters experiments really proved when I saw them on television.

Nice work on the video, too - well worth the time.

AC

[xrayoneone]

I believe the 16 kills at night with an M14 were done by Chuck Mawhinney, all head shots they said.

[DiabhailGadhar]

Was it just me or did the last shot send a cold chill up your spine? Nice video work that last couple of seconds really brought the lethality of that man (legend or hero would have also fit here) home...SEMPER FI and RIP!

For those of you that haven't read any of the books on that walking weapon I HIGHLY recommend them!

[TOrrock]

I had the privilege of meeting GySgt. Hathcock twice before he passed away in 1999.

Hell of a man.

I'd like to see someone pick up one of the PSO-1 scopes, which would be very similar to what was mounted on a SVD, and try it out.