JARD safety issue

[tealio]

rather than restate my issue, I'll quote myself and another to start this off:

Originally Posted by tealio

I know this is an old thread, so let me first apologize for resurrecting it.

I just bought a 1.5# Jard single stage non-adjustable trigger and installed it in a Yankee Hill lower. I'm fully aware of Yankee Hill's rep on this site, so let me again apologize for buying what I feel to be a decent brand for a "fun" rifle.

After installing the trigger, i realized that there is a major safety issue with it. On a "standard" "mil-spec" rifle, the safety selector will not move to the "safe" position if the rifle is not cocked. With the Jard trigger I have installed, the safety selector is free to move from "fire" to "safe" and vice-versa no matter what the current status of the rifle is. This is where the problem arises...

If the hammer is uncocked and the safety selector is moved to "safe" then it is not possible to fully cock the rifle. However, the charging handle can be pulled rearward about an inch. At this point, the hammer is pushed into the disconnnector, which will not move because of the safety selector. The rearward pull of the handle is stopped at this point. After releasing the charging handle, the bolt is returned to battery, however, the hammer is wedged in a "half-cocked" position.

At this point, most can probably see the issue. If the safety selector is then moved into the "fire" position, the hammer drops without the trigger being pulled. *BANG*

I'm not sure whether there is not enough material where the front of the trigger and the hammer meet, or if the hammer pin hole is slightly higher than it should be. Regardless, the hammer should push down on the front end of the trigger, raising the rear end, thereby blocking the safety selector from turning to "safe" if the hammer is uncocked.

I don't have another AR to swap parts with and narrow down the problem. Jard has offered to replace the trigger, as has midwayusa.com.

My question is, should i try another Jard, (possibly the adjustable that their "main tech guy" recommended) or another brand altogether? I'm considering the JP Enterprises single stage because it's around the same price point, midway has it in stock, and I'm concerned about another Jard, since their "main tech guy" said their triggers were supposed to allow switching to "safe" without the hammer cocked. (That doesn't seem right to me)

I'm also considering a self-contained unit, because it seems to me that if the hammer pin hole is slightly off, I won't have to worry about independent parts aligning properly.

Again, sorry for bringing back such an old thread. Thanks in advance for any advice.

Originally Posted by MMcfpd

Now that I've seen this, I had to try it with the Jard single stage I have in a Colt lower. It did do what tealio reports, although I did have to give the selector a little more oomph than I normally might to engage the safe position without the hammer cocked.

This trigger's been in this gun for several years and I suppose I've just never tried to put it on safe while uncocked. My guess is that Jard could remedy this with a little work on the trigger tail.

Are there others with this issue? It seems to me that this is a major safety concern. I contacted the ATF and the agent said "The ATF doesn't deal with that kind of thing."

I'm concerned as a father, and as someone who hates when firearms get bad press. I'd hate for this issue to injure or kill someone. Should I take further steps? If so what should i do? Am i just being overly concerned for no reason?

[ohiorifleman]

SOP for this forum is contact the manufacturer first before running them down on a public forum- you did and they offered to replace it as well as the vendor- I say replace it- if you have the same issue get a refund and buy a Geissele.

[mtdawg169]

Why did you contact the BATFE?

[TX Rancher]

If I read the thread right, you suspect you may have found a safety related issue and are asking for advice on how and whether you should inform someone/agency.

I believe the first step would be to contact the manufacturer by email and give them a detailed description of your perceived safety issue and the steps taken to duplicate it. Make it clear to the company that you are just being a good citizen and bringing a potential flaw in their product to their attention. Most companies take safety issues very seriously and investigate them. After all, it's usually in their best interest to solve a valid issue quickly since it limits corporate liability.

If you run into the rare case where a company doesn't care about a true safety issue, then you can contact the Consumer Protection & Safety Division (CPSD). I don't know if they handle firearms issues, but if they don't, they would probably direct you to the right folks.

But before going to CPSD, I would give the manufacturer a fair shake. If the issue is with their part, and it's actually a safety issue, I bet they will take it seriously and work it.

[The_Hammer_Man]

Had a similar thing happen with a friend of mine's rifle. Only we discovered the "issue" while at a match. He ended up using the lower from my CMP rifle in leu of his.

While he was shooting his qualification round I examined his lower. There was just a bit too much room , as mentioned in previous posts, between the safety and the trigger tail.

I keep several strips of aluminum shim material , in various thicknesses in my tool box. (usually they're for shimming a scope) I tried several till I found one that filled in the gap. I then super glued the shim material into place and he was able to complete the competition with his own lower.

This was nice due to the fact we ended up both on the line at the same time

After the match I took acetone and removed the shim and boxed it. Next day me and my pals a UPS sent it back to Jard who replaced it w/o question.

You can "fix" them if they're like that but it's better to get it replaced by the manufacturer as you've been advised previously.

Now, with all that said... I have two CMP rifles with Jard triggers in them and have had no issues. I think the mitigating factor in this, and in my friend's case, was the use of a stamped versus billet lower.
I use billet lowers. The tighter tolerances could be the mitigating factor in this case.

This whole thing got me curious about the safety of my rifles. After attempting to "safe" the weapon while the hammer was forward. I was unable to duplicate the issue described in the OP.

"scratchs his head and wanders off muttering"

Regards,

TJ

[tealio]

Mtdawg: As TX Rancher presumed, I feel that a safety issue such as this should be reported. Since the ATF deals with regulation of firearms I thought they would be a good starting point.

TX Rancher: Although I contacted them by phone, I haven't tried any written communication. Thank you for the suggestion.

Hammer Man: Thanks for the input. What kind of lower was it?

So far, I now know of 3 of their triggers that malfunction in the same manner. Although there could be a problem with the hammer/trigger holes being out of spec, i kinda doubt it. Mine was in a Yankee Hill lower, MMcfpd had his in a Colt. Chances are Hammer Man's friend had another brand.

I have already sent the offending parts back to midwayusa, so hopefully Jard doesn't want them.

I'll send an email out soon and quote it here, and also Jard's reply. Hopefully that's the end of it.

Thanks again.

[tealio]

I have posted this information on a well known AR forum, and will update my post with any response JARD may have.

I just bought a 1.5# Jard single stage non-adjustable trigger and installed it. *After installing the trigger, i realized that there is a major safety issue with it. On a "standard" "mil-spec" rifle, the safety selector will not move to the "safe" position if the rifle is not cocked. With the Jard trigger I have installed, the safety selector is free to move from "fire" to "safe" and vice-versa no matter what the current status of the rifle is. This is where the problem arises...

If the hammer is uncocked and the safety selector is moved to "safe" then it is not possible to fully cock the rifle. However, the charging handle can be pulled rearward about an inch. At this point, the hammer is pushed into the disconnnector, which will not move because of the safety selector. The rearward pull of the handle is stopped at this point. After releasing the charging handle, the bolt is returned to battery, however, the hammer is wedged in a "half-cocked" position.

If the safety selector is then moved into the "fire" position, the hammer drops without the trigger being pulled.

There is not enough material where the front of the trigger and the hammer meet *The hammer should push down on the front end of the trigger, raising the rear end, thereby blocking the safety selector from turning to "safe" if the hammer is uncocked.

After posting this, I have received several responses indicating that others have had a similar malfunction. The trigger in had has been returned to the vendor.*

What kind (if any) of action will be taken on JARD's part?*

I feel that this is a major safety concern caused by a part that is out of spec.*


Thank you,
Justin M Teal

[tealio]

From JARD:

Originally Posted by JARDinc

Justin
We greatly appreciate you bringing this issue to our attention. We strive to
have the best product available on the market. We strive to make continuous
improvements to everything we do. We will look into a disconnect redesign
and attempt to replicate your situation to assure we have it solved. Thanks
again for the information.


Dean Van Marel
Jard Inc
3149 Nest Ave
Sheldon, IA 51201
Office 712-324-7409

[tealio]

As a side note, Dean Van Marel, the sender of this email was the "main tech guy" that I spoke to on the phone that said their triggers were "designed that way" in reference to why it would allow switching to the safe position without the hammer cocked. He claims to be more concerned about the issue now, so we'll see what happens.

[TX Rancher]

The words "safety issue" in a written exchange with the manufacturer usually has considerably more impact than a verbal conversation since the written exchange is discoverable if things enter the legal realm.

If they are able to duplicate the issue, it's a pretty good bet they will work on it.