I am not sure about doing a Trust.

[Lawdog-1]

Where can I go to read about doung a trust for SBR and Surpressors? Iam not sure wheather I want to go with a Trust or not,it seem to cost more.

[rob_s]

IMHO, Class III is not a poor man's game (no offense to any resident poor men ). This is one of those areas where I would, and did, pay more to be secure in the knowledge that it was done right.

I paid an attorney $400+/- to establish my trust. He also happens to be my Class III dealer which is convenient for me.

If you're deciding between a trust and an LLC, in most states the trust is cheaper and less of a headache in the long run as you do not have to pay any annual fees to keep it active and you don't have to file a tax return for a trust, both of which you do have to do for an LLC (again, in most states).

If you're deciding between a trust and private ownership, it becomes more about personal preference. I like having the trust because it allows me to skip the step where I have to go get a signature from my CLEO, and I don't have to worry that the political climate may shift and he might stop signing, or that I may move to another town in my state where the CLEO isn't so friendly.

IMHO, if you're deciding to get into the Class III market, pay the money and do things right. Buying a cheap suppressor and having it go TU is expensive. Making a trust on Willmaker and having it be deemed invalid can be likewise expensive.

[Robb Jensen]

Originally Posted by Lawdog-1

Where can I go to read about doung a trust for SBR and Surpressors? Iam not sure wheather I want to go with a Trust or not,it seem to cost more.

It's simply in the thread 'NFA info' that I wrote...........http://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=7410 You probably scrolled right past it.

[SHIVAN]

Originally Posted by rob_s

Making a trust on Willmaker and having it be deemed invalid can be likewise expensive.

Good point, but it would seem like lots of folks have blazed this trail already. Any anecdotal stories about invalid trusts and NFA? I haven't seen any.

Though the Schedule A req't "change" is bugging me.

I had mentioned recently that the NFA branch could pen stroke a change that would be binding, and low and behold they start requiring the Sched A, and will not process your transfer without it.

So what next?

[Sam]

Originally Posted by rob_s

I paid an attorney $400+/- to establish my trust. He also happens to be my Class III dealer which is convenient for me.

Wow, I got off cheap, it cost me two barbecue lunches to have my trust set up.

[rob_s]

Originally Posted by SHIVAN

Good point, but it would seem like lots of folks have blazed this trail already. Any anecdotal stories about invalid trusts and NFA? I haven't seen any.

Though the Schedule A req't "change" is bugging me.

I had mentioned recently that the NFA branch could pen stroke a change that would be binding, and low and behold they start requiring the Sched A, and will not process your transfer without it.

So what next?

I don't know. Frankly, I would have paid someone to set up a corp if I had gone that way, so the cost of the trust was basically a wash. In fact, that's how I found out about trusts to begin with, looking for an attorney to set up a corp. for me.

At the end of the day it's all about peace of mind and I feel better knowing that someone smarter than me put my documents together. But then, I also pay someone else to change my oil, do my taxes, and fix things at my house.

[Lawdog-1]

Would I be better off not to do the trust rount since I am LEO and I can get my Chief sign for me with no problems?

[SHIVAN]

Originally Posted by Lawdog-1

Would I be better off not to do the trust rount since I am LEO and I can get my Chief sign for me with no problems?

Trust and Corp transfers are not encumbered by the background check that NFA requires the FBI to run for them on your prints.

The complete check must be done for every private transfer you do. Which normally takes 30-90 days.

If you don't mind waiting an extra couple weeks, and getting prints done on a routine basis -- private transfers are perfectly fine.

[markm]

Shoot! The $45 for the Trust was WELL WORTH not having to go down and get prints, Passport photos, and make two trips down to get the fucking L.E. signature!

I'd have bought my silencer LONG ago if I knew it could be this easy.

[Lawdog-1]

I can do my own prints and have in the past. My prints come out better if I roll my own than a another officer rolls my prints.

[SHIVAN]

It will cost you a minimum of 1 week in transactional time for private vs. trust/corp....

Your call.

[Lawdog-1]

So how do I get started and get the Trust done for $45.00?

[markm]

Originally Posted by Lawdog-1

So how do I get started and get the Trust done for $45.00?

You can buy willmaker or whatever. But I was lucky enough to have a dealer who regularly sets up trusts for $45 a pop.

I wouldn't know how to do it myself. There's been guys who screw it up and get delays.

[f.2]

Get the willmaker 2007 that comes with the book (the other one comes with the CD rom and costs more!).

$32.99 Quicken Willmaker Plus 2008 Edition: Estate Planning Essentials (Book with CD-ROM) (Paperback)

Having your dealer do it for you for $45.00 is fine, but you may want to have willmaker on your puter for when you want to print / change your schedule A. NFA items come in pairs, and 3s, and 4s, and..., you get the idea. That's fine though, having a class III dealer you can trust (no pun intended) and who works with you is the key. They will hold your item for weeks on end while the form 3 / form 4 / NFA shuffle goes on and on.

From what I've read (check out the ATF Turnaround silencer talk thread below), trust transfers are taking longer because of higher scrutiny. First 3 links below address this.

Check out these links:

send in schedule A with trust, arfcom

NFA wants my Schedule A for Transfere ???????, silencer talk

Its *official*...send in everything now for Trust Transfers, silencer talk forums

NFA FAQ, on-line BATF forms and more, arfcom

SBR FAQ, arfcom

My Form 4 is approved (those in NFA states should read this aka Trust transfer), SIGforum toovira thread

Small Arms Review Trust article, SIGforum

Setting up Trust instead of Corp for NFA items, arfcom

ATF turnaround Cont., Silencer Talk

State by State Chart of NFA Restrictions, no idea when this was last updated..., check your state laws / revised statues

another state listing, check, double check your state

ATF forms ordering

NFA Weapons, Silencer Talk

NFA Legal and Political Discussion, Silencer Talk

NFA, M4Carbine.net

General Class 3, arfcom

Class 3 Firearms, arfcom

How to set up a revocable living trust to purchase National Firearms Act (NFA) or Class 3 weapons

[markm]

Originally Posted by f.2

Having your dealer do it for you for $45.00 is fine, but you may want to have willmaker on your puter for when you want to print / change your schedule A.

That's why my dealer exported my trust to a word file and burned it to disk for me.

[Bob, Esq.]

Do you let your dealer do a root canal for you just because he charges $45? Jesus guys. First, preparing a trust for someone else without the benefit of having a law license is the unlicensed practice of law and is generally a felony in every state. Those are the thypes of things that get you ass put in jail and your FFL revoked. Your dealer would not happen to be in the Tampa FL area? There is one knuckle head up that way doing them on a a laptop at the gunshow. Again, unlicensed practice or law, felony, FFL bye bye! Not worth it! Not only is it illegal, but when something goes wrong with the administration of your estate after your death because he was playing lawyer without a license, that dealer better be ready for the lawsuit that will come from the decedent's family for the additional costs incurred due to his shenanigans. Guys, I have done more trusts than I care to keep count of and have reviewed quite a few do it yourself documents (quicken and others) and I generally find a problem with the vast majority of them. Just reviewed one for a guy in the south florida area last week, while the program did let him set up a legal trust (meaning it is a legally existing entity), that is not the problem. The problem comes when he dies and the disposition of the assets is held up because the testamentary portion of the trust is unclear, illegal or just plain wrong. In florida the entire trust code wa completely re-written just a couple of months ago. Think the program you got on the internet takes into accoun the latest changes to the laws? Not likely. Another BIG problem with these programs is that they do not take into account the specifics of the law and how it specifically applies to NFA assets. One example of this it that they make no provisions in the trust instrument for beneficaries who are not qualified individuals under NFA law (minors, felons, foreign nationals, etc.). What if the successor trustee is directed to distribute a asset to a person who is not a qualified person. What it the beneficiary is a minor? This deficiency in the do it yourself programs available leaves your successor trustee subject to a whole host of potential legal problems. Regardless of the potential legal and financial problems, there are some folks that just insist on trying to do it themselves. Like the folks that go to the illegal pharmacy in soemones house and then cry on TV that they cant believe the drugs they got were fake, expired, for horses, etc. If you want to screw around with it and half ass it, go right ahead cause the probate attorneys will make 20 times the fees straightening out the mess you leave and then they will still have come to the few NFA savy attorneys out there to explain the NFA laws to them for which your heirs will pay even more fees. The fee I charge for preparing a trust for a client works out to a pretty small amount when you consider the time I spend discussing the procedures and legalities with my clients and answering their questions on trusts, NFA transfers and the like. Like I always say, if the cost of doing it right is too much, then NFA is not the hobby for you.

Bob Howell, Esq./FFL/SOT

[Don Robison]

One example of this it that they make no provisions in the trust instrument for beneficaries who are not qualified individuals under NFA law (minors, felons, foreign nationals, etc.). What if the successor trustee is directed to distribute a asset to a person who is not a qualified person. What it the beneficiary is a minor?

Welcome to the forum Bob. I'm not trying to be difficult or an ass but, what kind of an idiot would make a minor, felon or foreign national a beneficiary of a trust specifically set up to hold NFA weapons?

[Bob, Esq.]

What if you want to leave the items to your kids, but they are minors? Need very specific language to handle this situation. Not like leaving them you watch or stereo. I see trusts and wills all the time where people leave items to individuals who are minors at the time, never thinking that anything will happen to them until the beneficiary is well past 21. I have also seen trusts and wills where folks leave assets to individuals who were fine upstanding people at the time the document was prepared but then ran afoul of the law several years later. What if you leave the items to your wife and she dies before you and before you can amend your trust. If the trtust provided for the assets to go to your living issue at that point and your kids are 3 and 7, then what. You have to understand that very few folks understand trust law and fewer still NFA law and even fewer the relationship between the two. I am also a dealer and have had many discussions with folks who are new to NFA or even folks who have had toys for years who are operating on false assumptions or just plain wrong information. I had a fellow months go actually argure with me that he didn't have to have witnesses on his trust as "the Florida Statutes didn't say that it was necessary". I told him that he was absolutely correct (at the time, but the entire trust code has been re-written in the last 3 months) that you didn't need witnesses and if he had looked more carefully, he didn't even need a written agreement to form a trust. However, without a written agreement you could never prove tot he ATFE the existence of the trust so your transfers would never go through and, pursuant to statute, without the proper execution and witnessing of the trust the testamentary provisions would be invalid (i.e the part that says where the assets go at your death is unenforceable). Setting up a trust is easy, setting it up properly, is another story. Half assing it could leade to delays in administering your estate, greatly added expense, and possibly even confiscation of the items or legal problems for the successor trustee.

Bob Howell, Esq/ffl/sot

[SHIVAN]

I'd venture to say that for every trust set up as an "NFA conduit" that might have some sort of "error", there are probably at least 10 or more that have no errors and no minors, felons or illegal aliens as trustees. The software methodolgy is not intended to replace a lawyer, or good legal advice, and I'd venture that if you follow their simple instructions it will probably hold up under scrutiny.

Each person must assess their own capabilities in this regard.

[Don Robison]

What if you want to leave the items to your kids, but they are minors?

They aren't allowed to own guns and if you attempt to leave them something they aren't allowed by law to own you're a moron.

I see trusts and wills all the time where people leave items to individuals who are minors at the time, never thinking that anything will happen to them until the beneficiary is well past 21.

Once again a dumb move.

I have also seen trusts and wills where folks leave assets to individuals who were fine upstanding people at the time the document was prepared but then ran afoul of the law several years later.

Personal responsibility, if you don't update your paperwork as life affects it, you're stupid and irresponsible and I would question your ability to keep track of your firearms.

What if you leave the items to your wife and she dies before you and before you can amend your trust.

Again, a personal responsibility issue. If you don't have time to go to your computer in your own home and change her name, you don't have time to visit a lawyer and have him change it.


I agree that there is a potential to create problems, I just don't agree with your examples. Anyone of average intelligence should be able to understand that their 7 year old can't own a .22 rifle therefore they can't own an M16.