The NEW Law Enforcement Shooting Method...

[SteyrAUG]

To quote another 80's paradigm "Learn it, Know it, Live it."

[randyman_ar]

Love the hand in pocket stance.

[Mauser KAR98K]

The bottom photo looks like Florida Highway Patrol.

[obucina]

Originally Posted by Mauser KAR98K

The bottom photo looks like Florida Highway Patrol.

i miss those Banana Split notchbacks!

[Suwannee Tim]

Originally Posted by Mauser KAR98K

The bottom photo looks like Florida Highway Patrol.

It does look like FHP, the livery and the uniform but that hair! In the '80s FHP required Troopers to keep their hair shorter than Marines. And no mustache. Trooper would have been reprimanded for even thinking about a mustache. My father almost hired on with FHP until they found out he was born in Chicago and raised in Ohio. They didn't hire Yankees.

Originally Posted by randyman_ar

Love the hand in pocket stance.

That's a pretty standard Bullseye match stance. How else are your guys going to win Bullseye matches?

Is that a chick behind the firing line? If so, she must have been one of the first females in FHP.

[one]

We'll probably never know how many Officers were ever killed or wounded...Or just missed hitting someone shooting at them, resulting in an escape where an innocent was harmed, because of those tactics and "Bullseye competition" mindset.

That silly old crap pictured there is why everyone here today owes a dept of thanks to the early work of Jeff Cooper and his peers for graveling the dirt road that others after them continued to pave.

That said those are some cool old pics huh? I always look forward to steyrAUG's posts due to these trips in the way back machine.

[theblackknight]

Originally Posted by randyman_ar

Love the hand in pocket stance.

I prefer hand on belt buckle, but still, you feel like a fuckin pimp. Dont forget to dump the brass in your pocket.

[RogerinTPA]

That is a typical competition style shooting position...for score.

[one]

Originally Posted by RogerinTPA

That is a typical competition style shooting position...for score.

You're right it is. The problem I saw when initially getting into the work force was that Officers very rarely ever distinguished between combat and bullseye. Sure the Officers that I knew that were the best shots 15 and 20 years ago were great. But they were great bullseye shooters and time and time again I would see them take exactly the stance depicted above in street encounters.

That was all because of the dept. having a pistol team that competed, and took many trophies in, KPOA (Kansas Police Officer's Association.) Now all they care about is golf around here.

The only way it went away, was when they retired. Now no one here shoots or even thinks about bullseye related competition, accordingly we haven't seen those stances in a long time.

[Mauser KAR98K]

Here's winking at you, partner. (First photo).

Where every the third shot is from, it is deep south, considering the building on blocks. The paint skim and the way the trooper decal is, it certainly looks like FHP. And they did have lots of 5.0 mustangs.

[RogerinTPA]

Originally Posted by one

You're right it is. The problem I saw when initially getting into the work force was that Officers very rarely ever distinguished between combat and bullseye. Sure the Officers that I knew that were the best shots 15 and 20 years ago were great. But they were great bullseye shooters and time and time again I would see them take exactly the stance depicted above in street encounters.

That was all because of the dept. having a pistol team that competed, and took many trophies in, KPOA (Kansas Police Officer's Association.) Now all they care about is golf around here.

The only way it went away, was when they retired. Now no one here shoots or even thinks about bullseye related competition, accordingly we haven't seen those stances in a long time.

Glad to here that. Some folks remain in the dogma of the past, regardless of how effed up it may be for what ever reason. Bullseye shooting is great for practicing the fundamentals, which I practice, before doing pistol drills, but with the modern Isosceles I normally shoot with. Folks who carry guns for a living should have an evolutionary mindset so as to not be trapped or killed with that past institutionalized BS.

[Suwannee Tim]

Originally Posted by RogerinTPA

.....Some folks remain in the dogma of the past.....

Most folks, in fact, the vast majority will cling to conventional wisdom and some of these folks will be not just neutral but hostile to new ideas, even hostile to inconvenient questions. I know this from personal experience as I have on a number of occasions questioned the "dogma of the past" and experienced the hostility of the entrenched interests. I advise folks to never love something that can't love them back. Particularly one should not become emotionally invested in an idea or a practice.

[SteyrAUG]

Originally Posted by Suwannee Tim

Most folks, in fact, the vast majority will cling to conventional wisdom and some of these folks will be not just neutral but hostile to new ideas, even hostile to inconvenient questions. I know this from personal experience as I have on a number of occasions questioned the "dogma of the past" and experienced the hostility of the entrenched interests. I advise folks to never love something that can't love them back. Particularly one should not become emotionally invested in an idea or a practice.

While I wouldn't advocate any of the above as preferred for combat, keep in mind that once upon a time this was the "approved method."

Back then many of us "young guys" were disciples of LFI and the various Weaver and Chapman techniques. But in our group was an old timer Sheriff who ran courses with the old "crouch and shoot" FBI method from the 30s.

Being as how our method was more efficient that Sheriff never won the top score in any drills but he still managed to do quite well, and shot as well or better than some using the new methods. This is of course due to the fact that he had probably been shooting for more than 40 years and could do things like shoot a coin in the air (which is something none of us could do).

Also he was an experienced gunfighter who had been in quite a few shootouts with bad guys and put more than a few into the ground with his old Colt Python. So while I was confident that my "new method" was more efficient, I never made the mistake of believing I was more skilled than that old Sheriff. And I'd sure hate to have actually gotten into a gun fight with him regardless of having advantages like a high capacity semi auto and a new method.

Course even he would tell you not to stand out there like in the above photos and get shot. He was more of a shoot and move kinda guy.

[TOrrock]

What we're dealing with here is a complete lack of respect for the law.

[SteyrAUG]

Originally Posted by Templar

What we're dealing with here is a complete lack of respect for the law.

The goddamn Germans got nothing to do with it!

[bp7178]

Guys look at pictures from the 60's and think about how stupid people looked doing that. How ineffective those thehniques are etc.

Forty years from now, someone will probably be doing the exact same thing to what is being taught now. What you see in those pictures was just as cutting edge as the shit being taught now.

Jeff Cooper didn't reinvent the wheel. Those techniques were in play long before Leatherslap and Big Bear Moutain.

Most, pretty much all, modern LEO firearms training follows the practices of "The Modern Technique", and really doesn't reflect the reality, level of training and mindset, of the average police officer on the average police department with declining budgets and appalling training time.

Most pics academies teach one to be able to pass a qualification test. For that they succeed.

[BrianS]

Originally Posted by bp7178

Forty years from now, someone will probably be doing the exact same thing to what is being taught now. What you see in those pictures was just as cutting edge as the shit being taught now.

Doubt it. What is being taught now is fundamentals of speed and accuracy brought from competition shooting (forms of competition that stress speed and accuracy) into elite military organizations and then used in combat to kill a bunch of bad guys. And then that experience brought back to inform the new batch of competition/self defense/law enforcement/military shooters.

I am sure some things will change incrementally, but I doubt we see the kind of radical changes we saw in the 20th century that make for these funny pictures. We will still be humans with roughly the same size and shape bodies and there are only so many ways to do things efficiently WITH THIS TECHNOLOGY. And a more scientific approach and lots of competition has resulted in pretty efficient ways to run a pistol and a rifle in the United States and world wide.

[bp7178]

Did you get that from a Magpul DVD?

Every latest and greatest makes the one prior to it look stupid. Just don't forget that there was one before. There will be one after.

The Modern Technique isn't some kind of gospel which changed the shooting world. Jack Weaver didn't invent something new, he put it on paper and refined it.

The world isn't all "elite military units" and SWAT guys. The vast majority don't fit into those roles. Look at any police department and you'll find guys who shoot maybe once a year, at qualification. They are usually the same guy who is overweight and can't iron or tuck in his/her shirt.

People who seek out training and shoot on their own understand that shooting is a discipline, just like being physically fit. You can't sit on a couch for a year then get up and run a six minute mile, it doesn't work that way. But there are plenty of people who carry guns for a living that do just that.

Just as the martial arts has different disciplines, Karate, Judo etc, there are different disciplines to shooting. Don't get wrapped up thinking what is being taught is the best way.

There needs to be a combination of techniques which reflect the actual reality of the situation at hand. Sort of a mixed martial arts of shooting. But more training means more money and time, and new ideas require a big push.

Modern firearms training doesn't reflect reality for the vast majority of shooters any more now than it did back then. People just simply don't have the level of discipline to preform those functions under stress. I would say that may not apply to many people on this forum. Gun enthusiasts are a different breed.

[Suwannee Tim]

Originally Posted by bp7178

.......Forty years from now, someone will probably be doing the exact same thing to what is being taught now.......

Indeed. There are folks who are so certain they have achieved ultimate knowledge and skill that they become hostile and defensive when challenged or even questioned.

[120mm]

Yep, 40 years from now EVERYONE will be walking rounds into a target, firing as they draw.

No one will make fun of the visionary head of Cold Steel then!!!!