National Open Carry...What If...?

[SteyrAUG]

So what would actually happen if next Monday any law abiding citizen could legally, openly carry a firearm for any reason without need of a permit, license or stated reason for doing so?

Not very long ago, depending upon how you view time, that was simply the way things were most places. And in a few, that is how it is now.

As with virtually everything there is capacity for good and bad.

Give some people money and they will buy drugs, gamble and engage in other various activities which will destroy their lives and that of others. Others will use money to pay bills, buy food and otherwise provide for themselves and those who depend upon them.

Give some people freedom and they will use that freedom to attempt to restrict the freedoms of others or otherwise degrade the quality of life of their fellow citizens. Others will simply use those same freedoms to lead more productive, enjoyable lives.

With virtually everything there will always be those who do bad things and can make even essentially good things like freedom and liberty come at a cost. That we allow the former to further restrict the latter as a result is simply one more additional cost that we endure because such people exist.

Otherwise we could board airplanes with the .44 magnum we intend to use on our hunting trip in the carry on right next to the powerful narcotics we will be dropping off at our grandmothers house, which her doctor advised her to take, because drug prices happen to be cheaper in our state than hers. Sadly due to that former group of people, such a scenario now seems absurd.

It is common exercise of people who oppose unrestricted carry to say "Imagine all of the bad, dangerous drivers on the road that you encounter every day...now imagine they all have guns." And while there is some merit to that analogy, my question is IF they are so dangerous...why do we let them keep their cars and let them drive? These people are far more likely to kill us in traffic and cars let them come into contact with far more people than a gun. One dumbass move on the interstate can kill and injure dozens of people. And a person can probably kill more people deliberately with a car than a gun, but please don't mention that on the national news...we have enough problems.

So back to what if...what would actually happen.

Well in a lot of places...nothing. Same thing that happened when we allowed greater carry freedoms with various permits or licenses. Some people create new problems because they have guns, other people prevent more problems because they have guns. It's the usual give and take and so far it seems the good far outweighs the bad. But legal carry in North Carolina may not produce the same result in Oakland, California.

So what of Chicago, New York, Los Angeles, etc? What if?

Well a few things would change. Criminals would STILL have the guns they have right now. And those criminals who have not YET been arrested could legally carry guns. The reality of course is if they are criminals (even if they haven't been arrested yet) and intent upon carrying a gun, they will do it regardless of laws because they are criminals. The difference is right now they don't do it openly so you have to check to see if they are actually armed.

Really only two things are going to actually change. Violent "shoot em up" high crime areas will no longer be able to pretend they are anything else and the law abiding citizens who happen to live there will be forced to recognize those areas for what they actually are, and of course they will now have the freedom to arms themselves and shoot back according to local laws regarding personal defense.

But for middle America, once the novelty has worn off, carrying a gun will be much like carrying a laptop computer, cell phone, your keys, wallet and all the other things you bring with you as needed. My dad used to bring a .45 on a pistol belt when he went camping for example.

Some will point out that open carry makes you a target for criminals who will want your guns. This is of course true, but the same is true of the guns in your home. Criminals are also willing to target and kill you for your nice watch, car, cell phone, shoes, jacket, $10 in your pocket and a host of other things. Best to keep that in mind but you can probably save your life more effectively with the gun on your hip than the watch on your wrist. And honestly the average criminal can get a lot more from your Rolex or Omega than your Glock.

Ideally, law abiding citizens would be free to conceal weapons as well as carry them openly so that one my custom tailor their perceived personal security needs to their environment. But it is already asking a LOT for everyone to legally strap on or sling a firearm, being able to hide it without proving yourself worthy is more freedom (and associated risk) than the citizens of most states are willing to consider. In many places they aren't even crazy about the people who have been cleared and licensed to do such things.

So again, what would really happen?

Bad places would be bad, and in places where decent, law abiding people outnumber the bad, pretty much nothing except for a few more guys creating problems and a larger number of people preventing most problems from happening.

And with the bad places clearly recognized "perhaps" we could then focus solely on the bad people who MAKE those places bad to try and fix it. After all there is nothing specific about the architecture of Chicago that makes it dangerous and corrupt, and it isn't a result of the climate. A lot of it has to do with the good people who live there being powerless to prevent the bad people from doing the things they do.

The problem of course is that we'd have to provide a huge number of people with a great deal of freedom and liberty.

[TOrrock]

I'm guessing you copy and pasted this from some place like opencarry.org....

Honestly, I would be against it. I support the ability to do it, but just because you CAN do something, does not mean you SHOULD do something.

The overwhelming majority of open-carry activists I see are guys that are desperately in need of some good training, carrying all kinds of pos crap in some of the worst holsters I've seen; but are desperate for attention.

I've got my nomex on, no worries.

[Iraqgunz]

Open carry has its' time and place. Camping, hiking, etc... Otherwise it's silly. Not saying it shouldn't be allowed, but that it's not smart.

I agree with Templar about many OCA. Everyone I have seen in AZ was a top shelf tool. One guy had a nylon holster and it was flopping all over with his pistol in it.

Another guy weighed about 400 lbs. and was sporting some type of nylon drop leg holster. Again, it was bouncing all over and he couldn't even reach the pistol to draw it from standing position.

[GermanSynergy]

I get the intent, but I think what you'd really have is Joe Q Public exposed to "That Guy", the mutton head we see at the public range sweeping the firing line with his Blackthorne AR, regaling us with his imaginary tales of SF badassery at the gun shop, or asking his friend to "houl mah beer an' watch dis, y'all".

Perhaps I'm too cynical and jaded, or I've spent too much time on public ranges.

[GIJew766]

Ding ding ding ding ding! We have a winner!

As you mentioned, at one point in time, the sight of a pistol on someone's hip caused as much of a stir as seeing a guy with a diamond stud in his ear.

Oh, what a glorious day when those times come back...We can dream right?


H

[DireWulf]

Originally Posted by Templar

I'm guessing you copy and pasted this from some place like opencarry.org....

Honestly, I would be against it. I support the ability to do it, but just because you CAN do something, does not mean you SHOULD do something.

The overwhelming majority of open-carry activists I see are guys that are desperately in need of some good training, carrying all kinds of pos crap in some of the worst holsters I've seen; but are desperate for attention.

I've got my nomex on, no worries.

That about sums it up. I've always been of the belief that open carry accomplishes one of two things.

1) The person carrying deters a bad guy from doing something that bad guys are wont to do.

2) Makes the person carrying the first person to be shot in the back of the head while standing in line at Subway by the bad guy who really needs to do that bad something in order to get the money he needs for his dope.

I say, until you grow eyes in the back of your head, concealment provides more advantages in today's American society.

IG, I agree totally about the OCA's in Arizona. I got called to a Smitty's one time because one of these doofs lost the mag out his 1911 in the aisles. I was there to collect it as found property when the guy showed up looking for it after retracing his steps. He'd been to Smitty's, Walmart and a car swap meet before someone tapped him on the shoulder and said: " 'scuse me, sir. Think you lost something." Did I mention he had been riding one of those courtesy electric shopping cart scooter thingys while shopping?

[Titleist]

I respect people's right to open carry, but just stay away from me, and I'll keep my gun in my pants.

I usually just keep my pistol tucked away when camping. That said I've been known to pack my SBR away when doing so as well (in my backpack).

[A-Bear680]

No offence intended but....
Open carry is not much of an answer to anything -- except a gun-grabber's wet dream...


I would suggest that we forget about national open carry until :

1. All states have laws on the books that allow at least some citizens to obtain CCW permits or CCW like Vermont . One state to go . And of course , DC .
Then....
2. All states actually issue a meaningful number of permits . We have a ways to go , lots of votes to line up , many court victories to win , and a metric shitload of money to raise.
Then...
3. All states have an honest Shall Issue/ Objective Criteria system and fees that are no higher than a drivers' licence or a hunting licence. That will take some serious work .
And :
4. A national system that allows carry in adjacent states . For example Ohio people get to CCW in Michigan , Kentucky , PA , and Indiana with there Ohio license.

Open carry is a wrong turn down a dead end street and a waste of resources until those things are done . IMO , some misguided groups and individuals are like Hitler in the bunker - defend everything everywhere , attack everything everywhere , anyone who thinks otherwise is a traitor --- yadda , yadda , blah , blah , blah , blah.

www.saf.org
www.nra.com

WE Are Winning .

YMMV.

[4x4twenty6]

I am all for concealed carry. Why let someone know you are armed when you can have the element of surprise and other wise blend in with the rest of the sheeple when you are truly a wolf.
There are isolated instances where i think a person might think twice about attacking an armed person but the truth is that just gives the attacker the opportunity to used deadly force to get what they want rather than implying that they would used deadly force.

If you are going to carry do it concealed. As a LEO it makes me uneasy to see someone whether a slap dick or aj squared away carrying a weapon on their hip not next to a badge.

[SteyrAUG]

Originally Posted by Templar

I'm guessing you copy and pasted this from some place like opencarry.org....

All original thoughts.

Originally Posted by Templar

Honestly, I would be against it. I support the ability to do it, but just because you CAN do something, does not mean you SHOULD do something.

The overwhelming majority of open-carry activists I see are guys that are desperately in need of some good training, carrying all kinds of pos crap in some of the worst holsters I've seen; but are desperate for attention.

I've got my nomex on, no worries.

So when my father strapped on a 1911 to go camping years ago, what was wrong about that?

[SteyrAUG]

Originally Posted by Iraqgunz

Open carry has its' time and place. Camping, hiking, etc... Otherwise it's silly. Not saying it shouldn't be allowed, but that it's not smart.

I agree with Templar about many OCA. Everyone I have seen in AZ was a top shelf tool. One guy had a nylon holster and it was flopping all over with his pistol in it.

Another guy weighed about 400 lbs. and was sporting some type of nylon drop leg holster. Again, it was bouncing all over and he couldn't even reach the pistol to draw it from standing position.

What about the people who aren't activists? What about those who simply wish to be armed?

And I really don't want to get into the whole open carry vs. conceal carry as it is besides the point.

What I'm really talking about is right to carry without requirements such as "must be concealed."

[SteyrAUG]

Originally Posted by DireWulf

2) Makes the person carrying the first person to be shot in the back of the head while standing in line at Subway by the bad guy who really needs to do that bad something in order to get the money he needs for his dope.

I say, until you grow eyes in the back of your head, concealment provides more advantages in today's American society.

I'm not discounting that discrete carry makes you less of a target, but I did address this in the OP.

"Some will point out that open carry makes you a target for criminals who will want your guns. This is of course true, but the same is true of the guns in your home. Criminals are also willing to target and kill you for your nice watch, car, cell phone, shoes, jacket, $10 in your pocket and a host of other things. Best to keep that in mind but you can probably save your life more effectively with the gun on your hip than the watch on your wrist. And honestly the average criminal can get a lot more from your Rolex or Omega than your Glock."

[SteyrAUG]

Originally Posted by 4x4twenty6

As a LEO it makes me uneasy to see someone whether a slap dick or aj squared away carrying a weapon on their hip not next to a badge.

Why? If someone is potentially dangerous, how is their gun being hidden better? Why do you fear a law abiding, good person who is armed simply because he hasn't chosen your profession?

[ICANHITHIMMAN]

I'm for national conceled carry but not for open carry.

[ICANHITHIMMAN]

Originally Posted by 4x4twenty6

If you are going to carry do it concealed. As a LEO it makes me uneasy to see someone whether a slap dick or aj squared away carrying a weapon on their hip not next to a badge.

I got to say I disagree with this 100% a badge does not make anyone better than anyone else.

[CoryCop25]

I think if there was a national law allowing open carry, it would be LESS of a surprise to others when they would see someone OCing. The big deal about open carry is that not everyone is aware that this type of thing is allowed. If the country knew that this was allowed, more people would know about it and not be surprised to see someone OCing.
This sort of thing would probably never come to fruition but if it did, I am sure there would be a butt load more people running around with guns that have no idea how to use them and have no idea what weapon retention is.
Please don't forget that the active firearms enthusiast that trains and lives in that so called condition yellow is the minority. Hell, look at all the police that don't know squat about firearms and they carry one every day and get paid to do it!

[SteyrAUG]

Originally Posted by CoryCop25

This sort of thing would probably never come to fruition but if it did, I am sure there would be a butt load more people running around with guns that have no idea how to use them and have no idea what weapon retention is.
Please don't forget that the active firearms enthusiast that trains and lives in that so called condition yellow is the minority. Hell, look at all the police that don't know squat about firearms and they carry one every day and get paid to do it!

Isn't that basically what we had in the 40s, 50s and 60s? Probably even fewer people had actual training.

[CoryCop25]

Originally Posted by SteyrAUG

Isn't that basically what we had in the 40s, 50s and 60s? Probably even fewer people had actual training.

I agree. I think that people overlook certain aspects because it is their right. Yes, open carry and all of the BS anti-gun laws will always be a touchy topic but I look at it this way...
You need a license to drive a car yet very few people will refuse to obtain a license because they think it is their right to drive. They just go get a license. They follow the guidelines and obtain a permit and then get a driver's license. If you want to open carry, go for it! Follow the guidelines and do it!
We will have people getting in to situations with guns as we have people getting into situations with cars. It's going to happen with anything.

[4x4twenty6]

SteyrAUG-"Why? If someone is potentially dangerous, how is their gun being hidden better? Why do you fear a law abiding, good person who is armed simply because he hasn't chosen your profession?"

I Dont think ANYONE should open carry, whether you are an off duty LEO or a civilian. I think it paints a target on your back.
In Louisiana I know for a fact if a private business has a person who walks in and is OC'ing that business has the right to refuse service even though it is perfectly legal to open carry in Louisiana.

Why would you want that? You walk into a business and not everyone understands the law and may react negatively to ANY person open carrying a firearm.
The badge reference was because of what was stated above. If a gun is next to a badge an uninformed citizen is put at eaze when they see firearm displayed.

BTW, don't make this a "I'm a cop so i know more than you" issue because that is not at all how it was implied. Stop reading more into comments than what it obviously says.

ICANHITHIMMAN- I will say it again, stop reading into a comment more than what it obviously states.
A badge doesnt make anyone better, but what it does bring to the table is significant training and day to day experiences that make a police officer better in certaing situations than a vast majority of civilians will NEVER experience in their entire lives.

I would love more citizens to carry concealed and educate themselves and train properly but i doubt that happens very often... excluding some of the folks on this site, there seems to be a lot of really well informed folks here.

[mskdgunman]

I would much rather see a Nationwide, consistent concealed carry law. I'm not sure what the fascination is that some have with the whole OC thing but different strokes and all that. Personally, I'm not in favor of it for a variety of reasons some of which have been addressed here. I'm all in favor of CC and wish that more folks did it and that more States had CC laws like Florida. I think people stand a better chance of getting reformed CC laws then they do pushing the whole OC thing. Having carried a gun OC for the better part of my 21 year career, I much prefer to CC these days even at work. I've always thought that a visible firearm makes you the guy the BG will shoot first if he sees it before you see him. It will definately move you up on the target priority list.