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Thread: Is there better than "Mil-Spec?"

  1. #1
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    Is there better than "Mil-Spec?"

    FULL DISCLOSURE: I am a Distributor for both BCM and Colt.



    Was reading a thread on here (which is now closed) about the fact that there are companies producing guns above the TDP (Technical Data Package). The company what was in question, was Colt.

    I found this interesting and wondered how they came to this conclusion. Below are some thoughts on what the definition of "better" is and if it is accurate or not.

    One of the companies mentioned as "above the TDP" was BCM. Since I am one of their Distributors and consider Paul a personal friend, I will use his company for the comparison.

    BCM is well known for their quality and attention to detail. Paul pays close attention to the TDP and what it calls for. Why? Because he knows that it IS the standard.

    Last year, there was a discussion about which was better (Colt or BCM). Here are Paul's comments from that thread:

    First off, Colt is an outstanding product. It is the gold standard in the industry, and I am a big Colt fan.
    To be mentioned as a comparison to Colt is a big honor.


    End mills - Yes
    Lathes, - No
    Hammer Forge - BCM barrels are CHF from the premier small arms manufacturer in the free world. If you are a real Mk18 Pilot, then your going to be very familiar with the company. (all of our barrels have a very impressive petagree)
    MPI Test - Done by an independent party. Certified, insured, and not concerned with the BCM bottom line.
    Laser Bore Sighters - Yes - tons of them
    Test Firing Bench - Yes.
    Park Tank - Yes - several

    We actually do more of the final machining, assembly, and QC than most AR15 companies, but we do not take forging/stock to a final product.

    Arguing that one gun is better because more parts are made under their roof/s is silly. Quality product issues are much more complex than that. I will not name names but there is a large AR company that makes about as much stuff in house as Colt, and their rep for quality is on the other side of the spectrum.
    The quality you find in a Colt product is not because of the location of the CNC machine. If the machine making parts sits on Colt’s shop floor or it sits across the street at another tool shop - it will not determine if the parts will be good or not. Colt’s product is the quality it is because of the specifications they set and the standard the parts must meet. Because the part is built to the RI print. If you want to argue one manufacture is better than another then that is the point to be made.


    Paul

    So now that we know the above, let’s discuss "better" than the TDP. Before we start, people need to recognize that there is NO SET STANDARD for the 16" or 14.5" middy gas port size. NONE! This means that companies will just make it whatever they want. Now some companies (like BCM) have conducted Cyclic rate tests to establish their GP size. This is not the norm though and IMHO, most middy barrels (especially 16" barrels) are over gassed (as there is no standard or document like the TDP).

    The main argument that certain guns are above the TDP hinges on the Mid-Length barrel. Some believe that it is superior to carbine gas barrels because the GP is farther away (the gun shoots softer). Colt, would argue that the GP size on the 14.5" (.063) is tuned to give the same recoil impulse as a mid-length barrel.

    So if the recoil differences between a Mid-Length barrel and a Carbine barrel are minimal, then how can we say that is above the TDP?

    Personally, I think the argument that 16" middy barrels are "better" is based around the fact that you can run a longer rail. In this instance, I would agree that a longer rail is good option. Luckily, you can always put a low profile GB on a carbine gassed barrel or use DD's great 9.5FSP or 12.0FSP and achieve the same thing.

    I know that some middy barrel zealots are reading this and screaming at their computer screens. Some might even believe that my opinion is way off on this. While this maybe true, I find it of interest that Mr. Larry Vickers shoots a carbine gassed DD rifle. He could have chosen a mid-length barrel, but did not. To add more fuel to the fire, when Mr. Ken Hackathorn had me build him a DD AR, he also chose a carbine gas system. Clue?

    Back to the TDP. The TDP is a set standard not a guess. Only two companies have the official, licensed document. They are Colt and FN. Colt is the only one of these two that sells firearms to the consumer. Recognize that the TDP covers everything from barrel steel, to chrome thickness to the color of the phosphating. Companies that hold this document also have to deal with .GOV inspections and tests validating their parts. No other company has to deal with this level of scrutiny.

    While I do recognize that the TDP could be improved upon, very few companies even approach meeting its requirements. I am a fan of the mid-length gas system, but at the end of the day, it is not a magic pill that somehow transforms a company into being above the TDP and Colt.

    Sorry for the long winded post, but hopefully it sheds some light onto the TDP discussion. I do not own a Colt or BCM rifle, but do sell both products and have extensive knowledge on both companies and their firearms. Hopefully, people will recognize that this is an unbiased post and meant to educate on the topic.
    In the end, buying a Colt or BCM is a fantastic choice and either AR will provide the shooter with years of enjoyment!



    C4
    Last edited by C4IGrant; 09-08-11 at 14:09.

  2. #2
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    Thanks Grant, that is very informative, and that it is full of those pesky facts that those other guys were lacking.

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    Quote Originally Posted by C4IGrant View Post
    In the end, buying a Colt or BCM is a fantastic choice and either AR will provide the shooter with years of enjoyment!
    C4
    This right here is why I read m4carbine. Thank you for the excellent post.

    After buying, hating, and getting rid of a Del-ton rifle that I bought "because it was an AR", I decided to do some research. I ended up going with a BCM because of their reputation. I knew that no matter what barrel length or gas system I chose, it would be a quality weapon that would work well. It is only thanks to posts like this that I knew that BCM had a good reputation.

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    I PM'd IG about this because I didn't want to start another thread, but since you did

    What if we take the mid-length system out of the equation and compare a Colt 6920 to a DDM4v2 or a carbine length BCM? The specific statement that I was most curious about was that everyone else like DD, Noveske, KAC, BCM, was inferior to Colt because they don't have the TDP. I'm not doubting Colt's quality whatsoever, but if they were the bottom line best then how do the other companies even stay in business charging more than Colt? Why does LAV/Hackathorn/whoever shoot anything other than Colt?

    I'm not married to DD by the way, im genuinely interested in this conversation and some information does not quite add up.

    And if we did throw in different systems, is an SR-15 or Noveske N4 inferior (in terms of quality, reliability, etc...) to a 6920?

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    I have a Colt 6920 and a Noveske N4 midlength. Many people will say that the Noveske is better than the Colt, but I cant find anything on it that I would say is actually 'Better".

    Some parts are different to meet a specific need, but I dont think that makes the product better.

    The only products out there that I think could possibly be stated as better would be the CHF barrels. But then again I havent seen any shortcommings in the standard barrel on my or anyone else's Colt rifles.
    C co 1/30th Infantry Regiment
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    No dude is going to get shot in the chest at 300 yards and look down and say "What is that, a 3 MOA group?"

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    Thanks for this thread, Grant. You pretty much give all the reasons why I own more than one carbine, but only one middy and it's a BCM.

    I will just add a little fuel to the fire: I keep reading and/or hearing complaints about Colt AR's. I keep reading and/or hearing about quality control peaks and valleys at Colt. I don't hear about the same rollercoaster ride about BCM. I know any company occasionally produces a lemon, but if you look at the complaints on the errornet, unless I am horribly mistaken I see considerably more complaints about a Colt gun than a BCM one. Disclaimer is that Colt makes more guns in the first place, but with BCM's rising popularity you would think the issues would increase in reporting if they were there.

    The one complaint I hear about BCM is that you have to wait for their guns!

    So that I'm not a total fanboy for Bravo Company, I will say their rifles' components have more of a rough-around-the-edges finish than others I've seen like Colt or DD. My very first BCM carbine had a barrel that probably should have been a cosmetic blem barrel.

    Did I send it back? No. Am I complaining? No. I'd rather have a barrel with a few scuffs on a rifle I know I can trust my life to rather than a perfect store-window shiny product that fails under stress or due to a quality control issue.

    So in my humble opinion I do vote that BCM is superior to Colt.

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    You don't own a Colt or a BCM?

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    Quote Originally Posted by J8127 View Post
    I PM'd IG about this because I didn't want to start another thread, but since you did

    What if we take the mid-length system out of the equation and compare a Colt 6920 to a DDM4v2 or a carbine length BCM? The specific statement that I was most curious about was that everyone else like DD, Noveske, KAC, BCM, was inferior to Colt because they don't have the TDP. I'm not doubting Colt's quality whatsoever, but if they were the bottom line best then how do the other companies even stay in business charging more than Colt?
    As a DD/KAC/LMT/Noveske Dealer/Distr. I will not say that one is better than another. They are all fantastic IMHO and we are very lucky to have so many great options. In the end though, there is only one company that wrote and holds the TDP. This doesn't mean that the ones that do not are "lacking" it just means that one of the is the "Gold Standard" (to use Paul's comments).

    Why does LAV/Hackathorn/whoever shoot anything other than Colt?
    They do own Colt, but are also fans of other weapons as well.



    C4

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    Quote Originally Posted by samuse View Post
    You don't own a Colt or a BCM?
    No. I only shoot mutt's (that I build).


    C4

    Current training weapon
    Last edited by C4IGrant; 09-08-11 at 09:54.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Doc Glockster View Post
    Thanks for this thread, Grant. You pretty much give all the reasons why I own more than one carbine, but only one middy and it's a BCM.

    I will just add a little fuel to the fire: I keep reading and/or hearing complaints about Colt AR's. I keep reading and/or hearing about quality control peaks and valleys at Colt. I don't hear about the same rollercoaster ride about BCM. I know any company occasionally produces a lemon, but if you look at the complaints on the errornet, unless I am horribly mistaken I see considerably more complaints about a Colt gun than a BCM one. Disclaimer is that Colt makes more guns in the first place, but with BCM's rising popularity you would think the issues would increase in reporting if they were there.

    The one complaint I hear about BCM is that you have to wait for their guns!

    So that I'm not a total fanboy for Bravo Company, I will say their rifles' components have more of a rough-around-the-edges finish than others I've seen like Colt or DD. My very first BCM carbine had a barrel that probably should have been a cosmetic blem barrel.

    Did I send it back? No. Am I complaining? No. I'd rather have a barrel with a few scuffs on a rifle I know I can trust my life to rather than a perfect store-window shiny product that fails under stress or due to a quality control issue.

    So in my humble opinion I do vote that BCM is superior to Colt.
    You are welcome. First, all companies put out lemons. When comparing Colt VS BCM (in regards to lemons produced), you have recognize the number of guns each company produces per year.


    C4
    Last edited by C4IGrant; 09-08-11 at 09:53.

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