S&W 442 or other J-frame as sole self-defense weapon.

Greg Bell · #1 10-01-11, 22:06

Hear me out.

I think the J-frame in airweight format is probably the best all-around gun for the average civillian. Here is why:

1. Very simple. The Revolver has no safety, no movable sights, no dropable magazines, nothing. Just a gun that you can drop in your pocket and go.

2. Very reliable. While the myth of the unstoppable revolver is BS, it is true that a revovler is more likely to go off when you pull the trigger. Any number of factors from being out of battery due to close contact, empty chamber, jam, missing magazine, etc can curse your autoloader, the J-frame will work in all of the these cicumstances--and if the cylinder is empty keep squeezing.

3. Reasonable cost. Autoloaders are pricey. A Glock 19 is going to run most folks around $520. You are going to need a rigid holster (at least a fobus) and probably at least another spare mag or two. A J-frame will run you $100-200 cheaper.

4. You can throw out the price difference buy purchasing a set of crimson trace laser grips. This is, in the words of LAV, a no brainer fro the J-frame. The laser grip is absolutely perfect for this type of gun. You can practice dry-firing, shooting on the move, barrier shots, etc using the crimson trace grips and save a LOT of time and money at the range. This is especially nice for folks who don't have a range where they can practice practical shooting.

5. Five shots is a serious limitation. I do agree with those who say that 5 shots is the scary minimum. But I do think that the fact that you are much more likely to actually CARRY an ultra-lightweight revolver makes up for a combat autoloader in the glove compartment because you didn't feel like putting it back on before you went in the store.

6. Simplicity (again). A J-frame is really all you need. A simple nylon pocket holster is preferable, but not absolutely needed. You can just put it in your coat pocket (and shoot through it if need be). There is no need to keep up with magaizines and wait for months for holsters or any of the other doo-hickey's that you collect for autoloaders.

Jake'sDad · #2 10-01-11, 22:18

All great points, especially this one.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Greg Bell

But I do think that the fact that you are much more likely to actually CARRY an ultra-lightweight revolver makes up for a combat autoloader in the glove compartment because you didn't feel like putting it back on before you went in the store.

I can't count the times when I've been out with a bunch of gun guys, and when I ask where their gun is, it's "in the car".

Anyone who makes the effort to carry a bigger gun, extra mag, etc., all the time, is to be commended and respected. But if that's not you, then find something you will carry, all the time. For most people, a J frame is one that you easily can.

Rule 1 of gunfighting. Have a gun.

Sam · #3 10-01-11, 22:53

Greg:
You should do a "break my J frame test".

Greg Bell · #4 10-01-11, 22:57

Agreed. Absolutely no disrespect intended to those guys who slog it out with a combat autoloader. For years I tried carrying P7s, P2000s, G19s. G17s, 1911s, etc. I even lugged a P229 for a few years. All were much better combat handguns than the J-frame...absolutely no contest. The problem is, I can't justify carrying like that all day. I am a professional who has to wear slacks and button-ups all day, and I have a 2 year old. So threading belt-slides or even IWB holsters on and off all day, while lugging a heavy autoloader just doesn't happen. But I AM going to carry a gun. Given my line of work, I am probably more likely to get in a serious physical confrontation than anyone other than a cop or bouncher (LOL). I WILL have a gun, unfortunately, "5 for sure" may have to do.

SAM,
I would be suprised if a J-frame would hold out like the P2000 and HK45. LOL.

seb5 · #5 10-01-11, 22:58

I carry a 342 when carrying a Glock 23 is either impractical or I just don't want to go to the hassle of concealing a larger auto. They are great for what they are but I quite honestly feel much more confident with a more substantial firearm. However, it beats the hell out of a fork of pocket knife.

CoryCop25 · #6 10-01-11, 23:05

I have carried J-frames before. What I like about them is that they carry nice in a jacket pocket. It is comforting in a situation when just putting your hand in your pocket makes you ready for anything and no one around is the wiser. A revolver will also function in your pocket if necessary.

Jake'sDad · #7 10-02-11, 00:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by CoryCop25

I have carried J-frames before. What I like about them is that they carry nice in a jacket pocket. It is comforting in a situation when just putting your hand in your pocket makes you ready for anything and no one around is the wiser. A revolver will also function in your pocket if necessary.

As long as it's a hammerless or shrouded hammer gun.

Working graveyards in a bad neighborhood, the only place to get coffee was the all night convenience stores. Standing off to the side of the front counter at 3 in the morning, with coffee in my left hand, and my right hand in my Tuffy jacket pocket, I probably looked like a doofus lazy cop to the gangstas. They had no idea they had a gun pointed at them as they walked up towards me.

SeriousStudent · #8 10-02-11, 02:07

I have two J-frames: an all-stainless Model 60 in .357, and a 642 with Crimson Trace laser grips.

Greg, I do have one caveat for your list. These two are arguably the most difficult guns to shoot well that I own. An airweight 642 has sights as an afterthought. And recoil management can be problematic.

The .357 rides in a parka or topcoat outer pocket in the winter, so I can do exactly what CoryCop25 and Jake'sDad does: Have my hand on it when needed.

I know it's possible to obtain a decent group. Grip and proper load selection got a long way. A wise gentleman once said "Speed is fine, but accuracy is final." I'm very fond of a pistol that is easy to shoot well under stress. It's hard to do that with a J-frame.

I did end up purchasing a steel 2" Model 60, just to have something easier to practice with. I got extremely lucky, and the used pistol I bought is freakishly accurate. But that's a rare thing.

I have the 642 in my pocket as I type this. But I carry a G19 with a X300 when I am out and about most days.

I think that the 642 should be everyone's second pistol, but I tend to lean towards the G19 for the first, by a narrow margin.

It's interesting food for thought. The tone of my post is meant to be thoughtful and polite, and not argumentative.

Jake'sDad · #9 10-02-11, 02:24

One of the differences in today and 30 years ago, is that today, easier to shoot autos are the norm. We were stuck with our revolvers, and consequently, we shot the piss out of them.

When I had 25 year old eyes, making head shots double action, at 50 yards with an Airweight Smith, was boringly easy. But they gave me all the .38 reloads I could shoot, and I took full advantage.

The hot rock shots today can do the same with their Glocks. It's just a matter of what you practice............a lot....

skyugo · #10 10-02-11, 02:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by Greg Bell

SAM,
I would be suprised if a J-frame would hold out like the P2000 and HK45. LOL.

true, but i think that makes it more valuable to do a serious endurance test. I know my glock will go longer than i need it to, my j-frame i could potentially wear out. I'd like to know what to watch for failure. I'd be forever grateful if you'd do a 10,000 round challenge on one.

Jake'sDad · #11 10-02-11, 02:45

A J frame will loosen up with a few thousand rounds. A little endshake, etc. Nothing that a good Smith can't tighten up.

titsonritz · #12 10-02-11, 06:15

My advise to someone packing an S&W 442 or other J-frame as sole self-defense weapon is have two of them. A speed-loader is not much smaller than a New York reload and a whole lot slower.

Greg Bell · #13 10-02-11, 08:54

I have shot my current 442 for the last three weekends. Weekend 1 was a mishmash. 100 rounds of lead, 50 rounds of jacketed, 20 rounds of gold dot, and a bloody thumb. The second week was 150 rounds of Federal Lead, last week 100 round of WWB and today I plan on shooting 10o more rounds of WWB and 50 rounds of Federal Lead. Currently (I am a flake so this is not set in stone) my plan is to change up my shooting routine. I am going to shoot 100 rounds per week from my carry gun (the 442) and 100 rounds from my AR. I will then split a 500 round box of .22 between my AR conversion and my Ruger .22 pistol. I figure that should keep the old muscle memory on about everything. At this rate it would take me a year to shoot 5k through the 442 but I do tend to shoot more than I plan. The trick will be to keep me from flaking out and buying another gun.

GHB

Beat Trash · #14 10-03-11, 14:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by Greg Bell

Hear me out.

I think the J-frame in airweight format is probably the best all-around gun for the average civillian. Here is why:

5. Five shots is a serious limitation. I do agree with those who say that 5 shots is the scary minimum. But I do think that the fact that you are much more likely to actually CARRY an ultra-lightweight revolver makes up for a combat autoloader in the glove compartment because you didn't feel like putting it back on before you went in the store.

A while ago, there was a thread started by Doc G Roberts about the Glock 19 being the new J-frame. It got me thinking and I looked up about a weeks worth of offense reports. While not scientific, we are seeing a trend to multiple suspects (usually 2-3), all armed.

The biggest disadvantage to a J-frame as your sole self-defense gun is the limitation to 5 shots. For me, this is a deal breaker. Especially with the various options in smaller 9mm's available.

I have no issue carrying a Glock 19 or lately a M&P9c off duty. The vary rare times I need to go smaller, a PM9 works. But that's me.

We all need to do an honest assessment of our needs in a defensive tool, then chose the tool that best serves that need. If you're not actually going to have it with you during your time of need, what's the point?

I'd much rather see an individual carrying a J-frame at all times than having their Glock 19 in the glove box.

Greg, you're obviously making an informed personal decision, after thinking it through. You are also practicing with your J-frame. For your needs, it would seem the J-frame is a valid choice.

While I agree with your line of thought, for my needs, a J-frame is a back up gun.

Too often topics like this lead to blanket statements and assumptions that if it works for me, then it is the best choice for all. You didn't go there. This is to be commended.

If I were to rely on a J-frame (442 or 642) as my sole carry gun, I think the best way to consider carrying a reload may be a second gun. I know one individual who carries a pair of 442's for this reason. Food for thought...

I tend to get wordy in my replies. To sum it up, a J-frame in your pocket at all times does beat a Glock 19 in the glove box.

Alaskapopo · #15 10-03-11, 15:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by Greg Bell

Hear me out.

I think the J-frame in airweight format is probably the best all-around gun for the average civillian. Here is why:

1. Very simple. The Revolver has no safety, no movable sights, no dropable magazines, nothing. Just a gun that you can drop in your pocket and go.

2. Very reliable. While the myth of the unstoppable revolver is BS, it is true that a revovler is more likely to go off when you pull the trigger. Any number of factors from being out of battery due to close contact, empty chamber, jam, missing magazine, etc can curse your autoloader, the J-frame will work in all of the these cicumstances--and if the cylinder is empty keep squeezing.

3. Reasonable cost. Autoloaders are pricey. A Glock 19 is going to run most folks around $520. You are going to need a rigid holster (at least a fobus) and probably at least another spare mag or two. A J-frame will run you $100-200 cheaper.

4. You can throw out the price difference buy purchasing a set of crimson trace laser grips. This is, in the words of LAV, a no brainer fro the J-frame. The laser grip is absolutely perfect for this type of gun. You can practice dry-firing, shooting on the move, barrier shots, etc using the crimson trace grips and save a LOT of time and money at the range. This is especially nice for folks who don't have a range where they can practice practical shooting.

5. Five shots is a serious limitation. I do agree with those who say that 5 shots is the scary minimum. But I do think that the fact that you are much more likely to actually CARRY an ultra-lightweight revolver makes up for a combat autoloader in the glove compartment because you didn't feel like putting it back on before you went in the store.

6. Simplicity (again). A J-frame is really all you need. A simple nylon pocket holster is preferable, but not absolutely needed. You can just put it in your coat pocket (and shoot through it if need be). There is no need to keep up with magaizines and wait for months for holsters or any of the other doo-hickey's that you collect for autoloaders.

Here is my take.
J frame pro's
1. Extreme concealability (can be pocket carried) Its the gun I carry when I am jogging or on those occaisions when you really don't want people to find out your armed. Such as at weddings, church, first dates before they accept I am a gun nut.

2. Simple to maintain
To sum it up they are the best of the pocket gun class in my opinion. I don't trust the autos that are small enough to be pocket carried. The smallest auto I trust is the Glock 26 and that is my normal off duty carry gun and my BUG at work.

J frame cons.
1. Difficult to shoot. I can make hits out to 25 yards with mine for the qualification but its not easy. You have a light gun with a relatively heavy trigger and a very short sight radius.
2. 5 shot capacity coupled with it being extremely slow to reload. The main problem is spent case ejection. I consider a J frame a close range one threat gun, meaning you start at the threats chest and work your way up to his head with all 5 shots and then hopefully the threat is down and hopefully he does not have any friends with him. The J frame in my opinion is the pistol you carry when nothing else will be able to be concealed and its the least amount of pistol you ever dare carry.

As for the glove box gun I don't have one. I keep an 870 behind my seat.
With respect to Greg I know climate plays a role. Here in Alaska I have found it easy to carry larger handguns. I carried a full size 1911 off duty for the last 7 years or so and only recently went to my Glock 26. When I went to Florida a few years back for training I brought a 442. It was so freaking hot and humid down there that I did not want to leave the hotel wearing anything more than shorts and a T shirt.
Pat

PA PATRIOT · #16 10-03-11, 20:21

Once you get hooked on the size and weight of a S&W Model-337 its hard to carry larger guns during the summer when your wearing Shorts and a T-Shirt and out for a run or bike ride.

I consider the .38spl J-Frame the smallest gun I prefer to carry and have retired my Kel-tec P-32, P3AT and a Seecamp .32acp which used to be my little guns of choice.

My Model-337 is a run and gun and not a stand and fight piece meaning its mission is to help me break contact while on the move. As always situational awareness and scanning your environment will help you avoid most encounters.

sgtjosh · #17 10-03-11, 21:47

A few random thoughts on J frames

I used to have a S&W 640. I regret selling it 15 years ago, but my final semester of college seemed more important at the time.

I did not like carrying it as a primary, but occasionally did when my mode of dress dictated so. I am now a little older and am more likely to change my mode of dress to accommodate my primary weapon.

I found speed strips to be the most convenient way to carry extra ammo.

I felt very comfortable with that as a backup to my Gen 2 Glock 22 .

I shot it very well. The hammerless design allowed for a high hold with a very natural point with my wrist locked forward.

I have never been a fan of laser sighted pistols, but can see the potential in this platform. Who am I to argue with LAV?

50 rounds per practice session was about all I could comfortably tolerate.

I liked pocket carry with an Uncle Mikes pocket holster. The holster was cheap and performed well for me. It was invisible in the front pocked of pleated khakis. My back pocket on the weak side was used for backup carry.

I also picked up an old inverted shoulder holster from the bargain bin at the gun shop I worked at.

I am a fan of J frames. However, you have to understand the strengths and weaknesses of the platform and deploy it accordingly.

"5 for sure" is hard to argue with for a back up. However, the new generation of sub compact autos certainly make a compelling argument. The potential for magazine commonality between back up and primary is a definite bonus.

Currently, I carry an agency issued HK P2000 with Insight M3LED as my primary with a P2000sk as a backup/off duty choice.

I would like an alloy J-frame for use when jogging. I can not seem to carry the P2000sk comfortably while exercising.

fourXfour · #18 10-03-11, 23:28

I carry my 340M&P every day. On duty backup and off duty primary.

I am huge fan of centennial j frames. I rely on mine as my primary home defense gun (although I do have a few higher capacity guns just in case).

Sent from my PC36100 using Tapatalk

CAVDOC · #19 10-07-11, 19:22

my take on j frames after 30 or so years carrying one:
they are hard to shoot well only if you don't practice with them- most people who carry one if they shoot it at all throw a box a year through one- Shoot a box a week of quality practice for 6 months and you'll have no problem getting one hole groups at 10 yards- more than adequate for the purpose. I don't consider myself the ultimate pistol shot but can easily hit a steel target gong(shaped like the old fbi q target) at 100 yards with a snubby.
Mine probably has 20K thru it no problem- they do hold up well (mine is a late 60's all steel gun- alloy guns may be different in this regard)
it is a good general carry gun- FOR ME- maybe not for others- I use an ankle rig daily- it s on me as we speak- and for those of us in jobs/activites where you need to keep the gun very low profile it is an excellent choice.
In a worse case scenario- it will buy me time with its 5 shots and one reload to make my way from my desk to may car- parked about 50 yards away- where my shotgun is.

Sam · #20 10-07-11, 21:40

An interesting story about J frames. Last March I hosted a two days handgun class. The instructor is a nationally known Legend

. I picked him up at his hotel and were heading out to eat. There were five of us that night, myself, another civilian plus three sworn law enforcement officers. The weapon breakdown was:

Lawman 1: 1911 main, J frame back up
Lawman 2: 1911 main, J frame back up
Lawman 3: J frame only
Civilian 1: 1911 only
Civilian 2: 640 J frame .357 main + 642 J frame .38 +P back up

Five people, five J frames.