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Other Assault Rifles M14, AK, FAL, UZI, etc.

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  #21  
Unread 08-21-07, 01:21
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I just got a Century Yugo underfolder. It is a really clean build and I can't wait to try it out. Do the Yugo parts kits have chrome-lined barrels?

I also have a Hungarian SA-85. Who has the parts that will fit to make it into a no-ban rifle? Since I do not have the time nor the tools, who could do the job?
Thanks, Andy
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  #22  
Unread 08-21-07, 03:20
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Originally Posted by Skyviking View Post
I just got a Century Yugo underfolder. It is a really clean build and I can't wait to try it out. Do the Yugo parts kits have chrome-lined barrels?
Negative. Yugos are not chrome lined.
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  #23  
Unread 08-21-07, 10:22
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Sky, as Bcm stated, original Yugoslavian rifles and the Century built clones do not have chrome lined barrels, not a serious issue unless you shoot corrosive ammo out of it.

Do you have one of the thumbhole stocked post ban SA-85 imported by KBI?

Some of those have a "short" gas system, if you could start another thread and post pics, we can help you out.

If it still has the thumbhole stock, you can get wood or synthetic military grade stocks to replace it with.
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  #24  
Unread 08-23-07, 10:27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Templar View Post
Sky, as Bcm stated, original Yugoslavian rifles and the Century built clones do not have chrome lined barrels, not a serious issue unless you shoot corrosive ammo out of it.

Do you have one of the thumbhole stocked post ban SA-85 imported by KBI?

Some of those have a "short" gas system, if you could start another thread and post pics, we can help you out.

If it still has the thumbhole stock, you can get wood or synthetic military grade stocks to replace it with.
Yes it has the thumbhole. And I am trying to figure out the left hand fold options to make it beautiful

http://www.k-var.com/shop/product.ph...cat=329&page=2

http://www.k-var.com/shop/product.ph...cat=329&page=2

What is with this 'short gas system'? It it a Krinkov something or another?

How is it identified?
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  #25  
Unread 09-24-07, 08:08
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Originally Posted by blackheart1137 View Post
Three places come to mind for quality AKs built in the US. Marc Krebs, K-Var, and Blackheart manufacturing. All start with quality components and then build to the buyers specs. some take longer than others but you should not be an a mad dash for an AK.
Agreed! I have a Kreb's rifle - built on the Russian Izhmash reciever - and it's a beauty in every way. It also comes with the side rail for mounting optics - an Aimpoint CompC3 in a modified Russian BP-02 mount shown below. Fit, finish and function are flawless - I would stake my life on this rifle without hesitation!



Just like with ARs, plan to spend more $$ if you want to go with top-shelf. And just like ARs, there is a big difference if you do so!

PS - Templar, thanks for all of the info!
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  #26  
Unread 09-26-07, 02:19
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K-var or what?

I left the k-var url:

http://www.k-var.com/shop/product.ph...cat=329&page=2

for viewing and I even sent the web site a request for an answer for the left side folding stock, that just so happens to be on sale right now.

I am on K-var list for contact of sale items.

I asked for a trunion to install the folding stock onto the SA-85 and had no response as this leaves me to expect that i am not celebrity enough to warrant a response.

so, where does a guy go to get some left hand stocks like the above K-var installed?
The parts are like a crap shoot. I still have a large box of wood stocks made for very small people with short arms and are useless to a north american.

Really frustrating. Got strong suggestions?

I guess an easy answer may be full of more research and calling.
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  #27  
Unread 10-02-07, 23:11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by troy View Post
I left the k-var url:

http://www.k-var.com/shop/product.ph...cat=329&page=2

for viewing and I even sent the web site a request for an answer for the left side folding stock, that just so happens to be on sale right now.

I am on K-var list for contact of sale items.

I asked for a trunion to install the folding stock onto the SA-85 and had no response as this leaves me to expect that i am not celebrity enough to warrant a response.

so, where does a guy go to get some left hand stocks like the above K-var installed?
The parts are like a crap shoot. I still have a large box of wood stocks made for very small people with short arms and are useless to a north american.

Really frustrating. Got strong suggestions?

I guess an easy answer may be full of more research and calling.
You're going to have to send it off to someone specializing in AKs. They must remove the rear trunnion and make a couple cuts to get the latching mechanism and special trunnion in there. I believe they also must remove the front trunnion and put the hook that holds the stock in the folded position. There is a lot of work to add this folder and typically costs a great deal to get it done... It might almost be cheaper to get a cheap Romanian kit, pre-cut NoDak receiver and have someone build it...

Spooky
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  #28  
Unread 10-06-07, 14:42
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In the $500-$600 range would something like this be worthwhile?

Vector Arms AK47 Polymer Fixed Stock US $ 529.95


How would the length of pull on something like this compare to the LOP on an M4 with the stock at the first notch out?

Would there be a better option in this price range for a stamped, 7.62x39 AK? Any compatibility issues to worry about with this model vs. others in terms of changing out sights, stocks, optics, etc?

ET:
Or, would the Arsenal SLR 108 be worth waiting/splurging for? Would the barrel be threaded under that slant break?
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  #29  
Unread 10-06-07, 16:46
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You are GTG with the Vector. The SLR-108 won't be happening any time soon.
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  #30  
Unread 10-06-07, 16:58
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Originally Posted by rob_s View Post
How would the length of pull on something like this compare to the LOP on an M4 with the stock at the first notch out?
Longer. LOP on the Vector is 12-3/4 inches - even longer with "NATO length" stock on the 108.
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  #31  
Unread 10-06-07, 17:05
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Originally Posted by Canonshooter View Post
Longer. LOP on the Vector is 12-3/4 inches - even longer with "NATO length" stock on the 108.
Thanks.

I thought this was rather interesting toward that end. Although I wish the extension tube was metal and not plastic.
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  #32  
Unread 10-06-07, 17:35
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Originally Posted by rob_s View Post
I thought this was rather interesting toward that end. Although I wish the extension tube was metal and not plastic.
I too have reservations about the plastic attachment "tube." An alternative would be a custom wood stock for Ironwood - I'm investgating that myself.

Edit - I wish the stock on my AK was about an 1-1/2 inches shorter. The other issue with the AK stock is the way the butt plate curved for traditonal "shoulder mounting." This curve becomes somewhat painful when firing from a squared stance with the butt placed higher and more center mass. I'm not a big guy - only 5'8" - and the Sully stock on my AR works far better (and far less painful) in that way. Lighter recoil helps too, of course...

I think the only solution is a custom wood stock, something shorter and perhaps with a higher comb to accommodate optics.
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  #33  
Unread 11-02-07, 20:50
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For what its worth there is an all metal rear trunnion and "pig snout" for the AK that let you then use a stock AR receiver extension. So if its what you want you can put any AR stock onto an AK.
The milled version adds about 1.5" to the LOP, the stamped is ~.5"
I deal in Century, Vector, and Arsenal if you need any thing.

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  #34  
Unread 11-03-07, 09:30
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LOP on an AKM stock is about the same as a M16A1 stock. It's fairly short.

The Vector uses the shorter Warsaw Pact length stock of the AKM, not the K-Var extra long "NATO" length stocks.

You should be gtg.
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  #35  
Unread 11-03-07, 23:36
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Originally Posted by Canonshooter View Post
I too have reservations about the plastic attachment "tube." An alternative would be a custom wood stock for Ironwood - I'm investgating that myself.

Edit - I wish the stock on my AK was about an 1-1/2 inches shorter. The other issue with the AK stock is the way the butt plate curved for traditonal "shoulder mounting." This curve becomes somewhat painful when firing from a squared stance with the butt placed higher and more center mass. I'm not a big guy - only 5'8" - and the Sully stock on my AR works far better (and far less painful) in that way. Lighter recoil helps too, of course...

I think the only solution is a custom wood stock, something shorter and perhaps with a higher comb to accommodate optics.
Vltor makes a mil compatible AK reciever extension that has a metal on metal fit.
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  #36  
Unread 11-04-07, 10:57
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Originally Posted by Canonshooter View Post
I too have reservations about the plastic attachment "tube." An alternative would be a custom wood stock for Ironwood - I'm investgating that myself.

Edit - I wish the stock on my AK was about an 1-1/2 inches shorter. The other issue with the AK stock is the way the butt plate curved for traditonal "shoulder mounting." This curve becomes somewhat painful when firing from a squared stance with the butt placed higher and more center mass. I'm not a big guy - only 5'8" - and the Sully stock on my AR works far better (and far less painful) in that way. Lighter recoil helps too, of course...

I think the only solution is a custom wood stock, something shorter and perhaps with a higher comb to accommodate optics.

All of my Iraqis use the m4 style stock with plastic tube. Only one has broken, and it was carried by an expat who was doing something stupid with it at the time. That said, if we had the choice I'd get them the version with the metal stock adaptor just to be safe.
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  #37  
Unread 11-04-07, 19:32
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The Vltor extension is great, I have 2 Krebs rifles with them. Very robust and gives me the same cheek weld as my AR's.
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  #38  
Unread 11-04-07, 20:50
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rob_s View Post
Thanks.

I thought this was rather interesting toward that end. Although I wish the extension tube was metal and not plastic.

Go Vltor for an AK/CAR stock. Its rock solid.
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  #39  
Unread 12-13-07, 21:43
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Templar View Post
Well, let's start with basics.

There are three types of AK receivers, ones made from forged and milled steel, ones that are made from sheet metal stampings, and ones that are made with heavier gauge reinforced stampings.

You'll hear terms like milled, stamped, and RPK type receivers, which correspond to the three types.

Milled receivers are correctly AK-47's, stamped receivers would be an AKM or AK-74. Reinforced stamped receivers would be known as RPK or Yugoslavian type.

All three work fine, but it's much more important with a stamped receiver that it's done "right".

Stamped receivers are much, much less expensive to manufacture. Milled receivers just scream quality and they tend to provide a more stable platform and are generally more accurate. The reinforced stamped receivers are thicker than a standard stamped receiver, and they use oversized reinforced trunnions that hold the barrel into the receiver. These are also called RPK receivers since they were developed for use with the Soviet squad auto, called the RPK.

Stamped receivers are the most versatile when it comes to playing around with different stocks. Milled receivers are a little more restricted when it comes to that.


Milled receivers can be identified by two milled out sections on either side of the receiver right above the mag well. These are just lightening cuts for the receiver, although they may help in making the receiver stiffer.





Stamped receivers, with two exceptions, should have two dimples, again, one on either side of the receiver above the mag well. They serve as magazine guides when reloading the weapon. The two exceptions are the Century Arms imported Romanian WASR-10 series, and the Russian SAIGA, although current SAIGA's might be coming in with the dimples. Stamped receivers can also be identified by the rivets that hold the front trunnion into the receiver.





RPK receivers are what the Yugoslavians use. They are 1.5mm thick stampings rather than the traditional 1mm, and the piece that holds the barrel to the receiver, the front trunnion, is oversized and reinforced, so they are very durable, stable receivers.







There are three main cailibers available in AK's.....

The original caliber is the 7.62x39mm, roughly equivalent to a .30-30 WCF in power. This is a "pure" assault rifle round, with a tapered case designed to make it easy to get into and out of a chamber quickly and easily. It is also the least accurate of the cartridges available for an AK, but it's by far the most prevalent cailber.

The 5.45x39mm was introduced in 1974 with the AK-74, it was the Soviet's attempt at the lightweight rifle/caliber concept. They saw the M16 being used in Vietnam and they wanted a round that was similar. The 5.45mm has less recoil and greater accuracy than the 7.62x39mm round, and is a lot of fun to shoot. The rounds also weigh less.

AK's can now also be had in 5.56x45mm. You know all about that round, but what's important to remember with AK's in this caliber is there were never any attempts to standardize parts or magazines among AK producing countries....they were always export rifles and the Warsaw Pact fell before they were widely available. If you get a rifle in this caliber, stock up on magazines and parts specific to the rifle you have. You can find Bulgarian, Chinese and Romanian stamped 5.56mm AK's, and milled receiver Bulgarian AK's, which are being issued in Columbia and are replacing other AK's in Bulgarian service now that Bulgaria is a junior member of NATO.


You'll also hear about pre-ban, post-ban, and no-ban rifles. For AK's, the first ban was in 1989, when Bush Sr. banned import of foreign made rifles by executive order. Prior to that, the Chinese, Egyptians, Hungarians and Yugoslavians imported AK's. The Israelis and Finns imported high end rifles based on the AK action, Galils and Valmets respectively.

There were rifles imported after 1989 that had thumbhole stocks, no muzzle brakes, no bayonet lugs, etc. These were the beginning of the post ban rifles. Then in 1994, the Crime Bill came.

Post ban imports came from Romania, Bulgaria, Eqypt, China, Hungary, and Russia. These would then have to be "unbanned" to have all the evil features that most of us want.

The end of the Crime Bill allowed domestic manufacture of rifles with evil features. You'll hear terms like "parts count". Parts count refers to the # of US parts in a foreign made rifle that allow it to then have evil features. If you have 10 or fewer foreign parts in the rifle, and ATF has a specific list of what you can replace, you can have a rifle with a bayonet lug, folding stock, threaded muzzle, etc.


Without a doubt, Arsenal Inc. makes the best AK out there, hands down. I've been shooting, buying, selling and collecting AK's for almost 20 years, and these guys build an AK better than anyone. They set up operations in the US, and as subsidiaries of Arsenal Bulgaria, they sent technicians and gunsmiths over from Bulgaria and Russia to build AK's here on modern CNC machinery with the original blue prints.


As to what to buy......think about how much you want to spend.

Pre-1989 imported rifles will still bring a premium. They don't have to worry about "parts counts" and they are the least molested, so collectors will pay top dollar for them.

Otherwise.....

Top of the line milled receiver AK's can go up to and over $1200.00. Some can be had for under $800.00. Again, another plug for Arsenal Inc. There are also Chinese milled receiver rifles out there, the pre-89 Polytech Legends, and there are post ban MAK-91's that are milled. There are also two types of Bulgarian post bans that were imported before Arsenal Inc. was set up, the SA-93 and the SLR-95. They can be had for around $500 or less and can be unbanned into some really nice rifles. The Bulgarian rifles use cold hammer forged barrels, extremely high quality.

Stamped receiver rifles are much more varied. Imported stamped receivers are typically the most desired. They aren't reverse engineered. Geometry and proper heat treatment of a stamped receiver are very important. It may sound like a simple thing to make a stamped receiver, but there really aren't any US receivers that are truely "in spec"....think about all the ruckus that the term "mil-spec" brings up when discussing AR's. Foreign stamped receivers are "mil-spec".

There are some well done domestic stamped receivers.....the ones offered my DCI/NODAK are the best, with Amory USA being very good as well.

Try to avoid Hesse, Vulcan, or early Ewbanks receivers. ITM/Ohio Ordnance have been around for a while, but they would be way, way, way down on my list of domestic receivers that are still acceptable.

A quality stamped receiver rifle can be had for $700.00 or less. The better rifles are actually "kit" rifles that were built from surplus rifles cut up as parts kits and then reassembled as complete rifles on new semi auto receivers with the proper # of US parts.

You'll want to know who built these up. Atlantic Arms offers some rifles built by Vector and Red Jacket that have a good track record. Armory USA/Arsenal USA have built many great rifles, although they went through a rough spot a while back. Current SA-85B's should be decent rifles.

Again, avoid Hesse/Vulcan, and some Ohio Rapidfire builds are worse than others.

Century imported a lot of rifles from Egypt and Romania, and they are now offering Yugoslavian kit rifles built on the excellent DCI receivers.

Century is VERY much hit and miss. You'll really want to inspect the rifle before buying, looking for canted front sights, bad triggers, and just overall quality.

Bear in mind that Century tries to sell a lot of rifles for a decent price, while they bring arms to the masses, sometimes quality suffers.

The WASR-10 is the cheapest, most prevalent AK out there right now. They are imported with a receiver that can't take military magazines, but Century then opens the magazine well to accept military mags. Some are quitre serviceable and represent a good value, but many have cosmetic issues and sights that aren't alligned properly.

AK's have a bad reputation, mostly unearned, for poor accuracy. They will never be bench rest rifles, but in terms of practical accuracy, they'll hang right in there with an AR with iron sights. I'm talking about unsupported real life shooting.

What's hurt the reputation in terms of accuracy for the AK is that people tend to buy the cheapest AK they can get and stuff the cheapest ammo they can find into it, and then want to compare it to their favorite AR.

I've beat guys in practical rifle competition using my iron sighted AK against their optically sighted AR.....

I know that this is a lot of information, and I've skimmed over a lot of issues.

Ask away on specific stuff.....there's a lot of knowledge on the board here, and you might also want to check out www.akforum.net, lots of very knowledgeable AK guys there.

I'm sure I've missed alot of stuff so chime in with any info!
That was the best AK write I have seen in years you never cut any brand down just stated facts. I have the Yugo under folder from Century Arms with the DCI receiver it is well built I also had the WASR10 I hated it and sold it after 300 rounds. My first AK was the MAK 90 I think it was from the late 80's it was a good shooting AK and i think it was well built.
Keith
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  #40  
Unread 12-13-07, 21:46
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That's why Templar is the AK Guru.

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