Page 1 of 5 123 ... LastLast
Results 1 to 10 of 50

Thread: Civilian traing + Mil backround question

  1. #1
    Join Date
    May 2011
    Posts
    1,268
    Feedback Score
    43 (100%)

    Civilian traing + Mil backround question

    So with the new year im looking at getting into a few classes. I have an infantry background and im familiar with the ar15 platform obviously.

    I haven't attended any training outside of the military and I'm curious about a few things. I know there are some posts in the past about this but nothing truly addressing my concerns. It may come across as me trying to make a statement but trust me im not im very curious because Im not knowledgeable in these things.

    Im looking for some input on what people hope to gain from there courses and why they pick specific ones.

    I have to admit I grind my teeth when I read something from a civilian where they imply that they are more competent then military personnel to engage in gunfights. I seem to see a lot of people say "well I would do this and then that...bet the Deployed guys don't know that..." When they've never been in combat or shot at anything that isn't paper. Real world experience is worth all the training in the world in my opinion Which leads me to my next thought.

    ** Disclaimer, Ill be the first one to say many military personnel, although effective in combat have never fine tuned their skills and are pretty brutish and misinformed as to effective procedures.
    Example: Gieger Tigers banging their mags on there kevlars before inserting it... Seriously wtf I hate seeing that.


    I have a friend who ive been trying to convince to attend with me. Lots of people say go with a buddy. He has four years of active service as an Infantry rifleman two tours in Iraq and a contracting position in Afgan under his belt.

    He makes a good point in that " what are they going to teach me that I haven't learned or encountered kicking doors in for 16 hours a day...?" He put a stick my my spokes. Hes right in that if its worked this far why change what we know? Now im thinking aren't most trainers former military and where did they learn there specialized skills outside of military doctrine? Im thinking their skill sets add more to individual tactics as opposed to team tactics, correct me if im wrong. And there are some civilian trainers as well correct? I don't know how to feel about that, please give me some insight on that.

    Weren't these type of classes initially created to prepare civilian contractors for work in Iraq/Afgan? While looking around trying to familiarize myself with the community ive seen a lot of civilian MOUT(shoot houses) and other training with people wearing full protective gear and combat load outs. I don't really understand this.

    Any and all input would be appreciated, I posted here as opposed to Lightfighter for a broader audience of Civilian,LEO, and MIL. I know this place has serious shooters and industry pros. I never considered AR15.com for obvious reasons, Im not even a member.

    Its hard to find much out of NY in my area I plan of traveling to the Charlotte NC area which is my future residence.

  2. #2
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    Location
    FL
    Posts
    9,325
    Feedback Score
    28 (100%)
    The kind of training available on the market today places heavy emphasis on individual proficiency instead of team/squad/plt/company proficiency. They have a much higher degree of precision in individual coaching and performance bench-marks. They are more able and apt to change with newer TTPs. The instructors tend to come from a background with higher than average performance goals at all levels and they maintain contact with people all over the world with a variety of applications and skill requirements. They are not forced to "dumb-down" training to a perceived lowest common demoninator. They have years (if not decades) of experience in getting the highest level of performance in the shortest amount of time. They do not have to adhere to archaic range regulations published in the 385-63. They know what they are talking about and can perform tasks and standards on demand, not junior enlisted that fill in knowledge gaps with myths and fantasy. Their student base covers everyone from high level competitive shooter to SWAT members to Tier 1 operators. They see numerous different platforms and employment methods and therefore have a greater appreciation for what those changes really mean. Many instructors come from a Tier 1 or high performance background, which is rarely found in the training that is bulk-packaged and delivered to conventional units.

    Students in most of these classes will shoot more in a 2-day class than most do in a year, with each and every round serving a purpose and with a lesson attached.
    Above all, the instructors have to earn their pay, and the students expect to get their money's worth.

    I say this being a professional instructor, former military instructor, multiple tour combat veteran, and former junior enlisted dude with more opinions than knowledge. After spending time with me (while I was still in), and seeing what lies on the other side of the coin and a little urging, many of my good friends invested their own money to attend training, and I have not yet heard any of them say that their time or money was wasted.

    Now, there are some very good military schools out there, but there are very few outside Tier 1 units that get the level of individual training that a good class will provide.
    Jack Leuba
    Director of Sales
    Knight's Armament Company
    jleuba@knightarmco.com

  3. #3
    Join Date
    Jun 2006
    Location
    SE FL
    Posts
    14,147
    Feedback Score
    5 (100%)
    Quote Originally Posted by Failure2Stop View Post
    The kind of training available on the market today places heavy emphasis on individual proficiency instead of team/squad/plt/company proficiency. They have a much higher degree of precision in individual coaching and performance bench-marks. They are more able and apt to change with newer TTPs. The instructors tend to come from a background with higher than average performance goals at all levels and they maintain contact with people all over the world with a variety of applications and skill requirements. They are not forced to "dumb-down" training to a perceived lowest common demoninator. They have years (if not decades) of experience in getting the highest level of performance in the shortest amount of time. They do not have to adhere to archaic range regulations published in the 385-63. They know what they are talking about and can perform tasks and standards on demand, not junior enlisted that fill in knowledge gaps with myths and fantasy. Their student base covers everyone from high level competitive shooter to SWAT members to Tier 1 operators. They see numerous different platforms and employment methods and therefore have a greater appreciation for what those changes really mean. Many instructors come from a Tier 1 or high performance background, which is rarely found in the training that is bulk-packaged and delivered to conventional units.

    Students in most of these classes will shoot more in a 2-day class than most do in a year, with each and every round serving a purpose and with a lesson attached.
    Above all, the instructors have to earn their pay, and the students expect to get their money's worth.

    I say this being a professional instructor, former military instructor, multiple tour combat veteran, and former junior enlisted dude with more opinions than knowledge. After spending time with me (while I was still in), and seeing what lies on the other side of the coin and a little urging, many of my good friends invested their own money to attend training, and I have not yet heard any of them say that their time or money was wasted.

    Now, there are some very good military schools out there, but there are very few outside Tier 1 units that get the level of individual training that a good class will provide.
    thank you for taking the time to post this. Sums it up very nicely.

    I have to admit I grind my teeth when I read something from a civilian where they imply that they are more competent then military personnel to engage in gunfights. I seem to see a lot of people say "well I would do this and then that...bet the Deployed guys don't know that..." When they've never been in combat or shot at anything that isn't paper. Real world experience is worth all the training in the world in my opinion
    FWIW I think you're viewing things through a skewed lens.

    In my experience, anyone outside of the very pointy tip of the spear or who has a very high (and rare) level of personal commitment and interest in marksmanship and firearms, is lacking in their ability to shoot. Shoot. not fight. I'm not qualified to comment on fighting. But 100% of the time the people I have shot with (and against, in matches) that have relied solely on their military training (outside of marksmanship teams) in terms of shooting have performed less well than all of the other shooters with multiple commercial training classes. I have never seen a shooter with only military training win a match, and never seen one take high shooter in a class. This applies to cops as well, FWIW.

    This gets misconstrued as "you're saying you could beat me at a fight or perform better than me in combat" which is not the same thing.

  4. #4
    Join Date
    Oct 2008
    Posts
    6
    Feedback Score
    0
    This is purely my experience, so take it for what it's worth.

    My dad is a CSM and has been in the military in a large range of capacities. He has been through several multi-week weapon- and -shooting-related courses including an SDM course where he was ringing steel out to 600 meters.

    Upon his return from deployment to Afghanistan, I convinced him to go with me to Pat Roger's carbine operator course. After those three days, he remarked that he had learned more about gunfighting and the ability to manipulate the weapon at the individual level than any training the military had ever given him.

  5. #5
    Join Date
    Jun 2006
    Location
    Southern Indiana
    Posts
    1,890
    Feedback Score
    14 (100%)
    Quote Originally Posted by lane5000 View Post
    Upon his return from deployment to Afghanistan, I convinced him to go with me to Pat Roger's carbine operator course. After those three days, he remarked that he had learned more about gunfighting and the ability to manipulate the weapon at the individual level than any training the military had ever given him.
    Any chance you can get your Dad to respond to this thread? I believe what you say, having heard it from individuals at Pat's classes of similar background.
    Last edited by Submariner; 01-03-12 at 16:06.
    "The very purpose of a Bill of Rights was to withdraw certain subjects from the vicissitudes of political controversy, to place them beyond the reach of majorities and officials and to establish them as legal principles to be applied by the courts." Justice Robert Jackson, WV St. Board of Education v. Barnette, 319 U.S. 624 (1943)

    "I don’t care how many pull ups and sit ups you can do. I care that you can move yourself across the ground with a fighting load and engage the enemy." Max Velocity

  6. #6
    Join Date
    Oct 2008
    Posts
    6
    Feedback Score
    0
    No, he won't make a post himself. If you have a specific question, I'd be happy to give him a call and get an answer. I thought that my dad's background would make his observation relevant to the OP's question, and my intent was simply to relay what he expressed to me after we took the class.

  7. #7
    Join Date
    Jan 2007
    Posts
    5,795
    Feedback Score
    0
    Approach all training, outside the military, with an open mind. I'm a retired Army Officer 15C35D & former Enlisted 11BVP. I was very skeptical of the training value in taking civilian classes. I learned pistol and rifle marksmanship in the Military and not real gun fighting TTPs. I started taking pistol classes locally and learned how to effectively employ my CCW. Eventually, I made my way onto this forum, then taking a Vickers Tactical basic pistol and carbine course, was my first formal instruction with the carbine, and learned from a former special operations "Operator" from a Tier 1 SMU, that effectively did bad things to bad people for a living, for a very long time, was an added bonus. That was were my "epiphany" occurred, where I realized that I was just practicing "marksmanship" during my own range time, in the same way I had done for years in the military and on several rifle teams. Larry's instruction was an eye opening. I personally ate some humble pie in the fact that his class showed me what I didn't know...how to use my pistol and carbine more efficiently and effectively. Way more than I ever learned in the Army.

    I attended more advanced training with others from his former unit, which was another eye opener, as well as a couple of Pat Rogers classes, and civilian instructor Randy Cane at Cumberland Tactics. I mentioned Randy because I used to have a bias against civilian/police instructors without a Tier 1 background, but again, I was wrong. His CQT (Close Quarters Tactics) class was excellent. Shooting from bad breath distance and very physical 'hand to hand' blocks of instruction. A lot of life saving practical information was given. I thoroughly enjoyed them all, learned a hell of a lot, and have had a hell of a lot of fun. There are tons of excellent instructors in the Training Forums, and from other members recommendations on M4C. Too bad they are all not located or train in FL or the SE. I would have loved to taken them all.

    The most important thing is to not close your mind off to new and different instruction and have a sense of humor. Don't be so arrogant that you won't let the instruction sink in or won't take friendly advice from fellow class mates. Check out every ones gear, ask questions, take notes. See what works for you.
    For God and the soldier we adore, In time of danger, not before! The danger passed, and all things righted, God is forgotten and the soldier slighted." - Rudyard Kipling

  8. #8
    Join Date
    May 2011
    Posts
    1,268
    Feedback Score
    43 (100%)
    Quote Originally Posted by Failure2Stop View Post
    The kind of training available on the market today places heavy emphasis on individual proficiency instead of team/squad/plt/company proficiency. They have a much higher degree of precision in individual coaching and performance bench-marks. They are more able and apt to change with newer TTPs. The instructors tend to come from a background with higher than average performance goals at all levels and they maintain contact with people all over the world with a variety of applications and skill requirements. They are not forced to "dumb-down" training to a perceived lowest common demoninator. They have years (if not decades) of experience in getting the highest level of performance in the shortest amount of time. They do not have to adhere to archaic range regulations published in the 385-63. They know what they are talking about and can perform tasks and standards on demand, not junior enlisted that fill in knowledge gaps with myths and fantasy. Their student base covers everyone from high level competitive shooter to SWAT members to Tier 1 operators. They see numerous different platforms and employment methods and therefore have a greater appreciation for what those changes really mean. Many instructors come from a Tier 1 or high performance background, which is rarely found in the training that is bulk-packaged and delivered to conventional units.

    Students in most of these classes will shoot more in a 2-day class than most do in a year, with each and every round serving a purpose and with a lesson attached.
    Above all, the instructors have to earn their pay, and the students expect to get their money's worth.

    I say this being a professional instructor, former military instructor, multiple tour combat veteran, and former junior enlisted dude with more opinions than knowledge. After spending time with me (while I was still in), and seeing what lies on the other side of the coin and a little urging, many of my good friends invested their own money to attend training, and I have not yet heard any of them say that their time or money was wasted.

    Now, there are some very good military schools out there, but there are very few outside Tier 1 units that get the level of individual training that a good class will provide.
    Wow thank you for writing that out. Your right about trying to fill the masses with limited knowledge its hard enough getting a squad in shape, I never really thought about it that way.

  9. #9
    Join Date
    May 2011
    Posts
    1,268
    Feedback Score
    43 (100%)
    Quote Originally Posted by rob_s View Post

    FWIW I think you're viewing things through a skewed lens.

    In my experience, anyone outside of the very pointy tip of the spear or who has a very high (and rare) level of personal commitment and interest in marksmanship and firearms, is lacking in their ability to shoot. Shoot. not fight. I'm not qualified to comment on fighting. But 100% of the time the people I have shot with (and against, in matches) that have relied solely on their military training (outside of marksmanship teams) in terms of shooting have performed less well than all of the other shooters with multiple commercial training classes. I have never seen a shooter with only military training win a match, and never seen one take high shooter in a class. This applies to cops as well, FWIW.

    This gets misconstrued as "you're saying you could beat me at a fight or perform better than me in combat" which is not the same thing.


    Im without a doubt sure that many people can out shoot me. Anyone who thinks their Military supplied shooting skills are all they'll ever need are greatly mislead.

    I guess ive been misinterpreting their intent when I read comments like that. In reality im new to a civilian shooting community outside of hunting and just shooting what ever I was allowed to as a kid.



    Im under the impression that a lot of classes are tactics based with a large emphasis on marksmanship. How does that transfer to a civilian trainer? Does anyone have any hesitations about that?

  10. #10
    Join Date
    May 2011
    Posts
    1,268
    Feedback Score
    43 (100%)
    Quote Originally Posted by lane5000 View Post
    This is purely my experience, so take it for what it's worth.

    My dad is a CSM and has been in the military in a large range of capacities. He has been through several multi-week weapon- and -shooting-related courses including an SDM course where he was ringing steel out to 600 meters.

    Upon his return from deployment to Afghanistan, I convinced him to go with me to Pat Roger's carbine operator course. After those three days, he remarked that he had learned more about gunfighting and the ability to manipulate the weapon at the individual level than any training the military had ever given him.
    Quote Originally Posted by RogerinTPA View Post
    Approach all training, outside the military, with an open mind. I'm a retired Army Officer 15C35D & former Enlisted 11BVP. I was very skeptical of the training value in taking civilian classes. I learned pistol and rifle marksmanship in the Military and not real gun fighting TTPs. I started taking pistol classes locally and learned how to effectively employ my CCW. Eventually, I made my way onto this forum, then taking a Vickers Tactical basic pistol and carbine course, was my first formal instruction with the carbine, and learned from a former special operations "Operator" from a Tier 1 SMU, that effectively did bad things to bad people for a living, for a very long time, was an added bonus. That was were my "epiphany" occurred, where I realized that I was just practicing "marksmanship" during my own range time, in the same way I had done for years in the military and on several rifle teams. Larry's instruction was an eye opening. I personally ate some humble pie in the fact that his class showed me what I didn't know...how to use my pistol and carbine more efficiently and effectively. Way more than I ever learned in the Army.

    I attended more advanced training with others from his former unit, which was another eye opener, as well as a couple of Pat Rogers classes, and civilian instructor Randy Cane at Cumberland Tactics. I mentioned Randy because I used to have a bias against civilian/police instructors without a Tier 1 background, but again, I was wrong. His CQT (Close Quarters Tactics) class was excellent. Shooting from bad breath distance and very physical 'hand to hand' blocks of instruction. A lot of life saving practical information was given. I thoroughly enjoyed them all, learned a hell of a lot, and have had a hell of a lot of fun. There are tons of excellent instructors in the Training Forums, and from other members recommendations on M4C. Too bad they are all not located or train in FL or the SE. I would have loved to taken them all.

    The most important thing is to not close your mind off to new and different instruction and have a sense of humor. Don't be so arrogant that you won't let the instruction sink in or won't take friendly advice from fellow class mates. Check out every ones gear, ask questions, take notes. See what works for you.


    Im glad both of you shared a similar experience. Although ive always known id learn something, I just wasn't sure if it would go against the grain so to speak.

    I would love to get some pistol courses in, But in NY it hard enough just to get a pistol permit let alone find a class.

    Cant wait for NC

Page 1 of 5 123 ... LastLast

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •