View Full Version : Navy SEALs Too White?
Yeah, sure they can take down Osama Bin Laden. Sure they may be the best and the brightest, but doesn't it bug you that there's too many white boys on the team? Next time we take down an international terrorist, we need to make sure there's enough homosexual pacific islander midgets - because, you know, that's what is really important after all :blink:
Navy Seeking More Minority SEALs
It's a fundamental challenge in a democracy with an all-volunteer force: recruits may be drawn from all segments of society, but elite military units -- and none is more elite these days than the SEALs, following their dispatch of Osama bin Laden last May -- tend to draw from small pools of talent. For the SEALs, that includes athletic young men who are smart and good in the water. For whatever reason, that has led to an overwhelmingly white SEAL force. (PHOTOS: Navy SEALs in Action)
http://news.yahoo.com/navy-seeking-more-minority-seals-141500687.html
I guess they are referring to the lack of African Americans in the pictures?
:confused:
Someone is upset that the Navy SEALs are mostly white. Therefore, they are pushing for a large recruitment effort for minorities. Political Correctness shouldn't interfere with the effectiveness of a unit.
There are two problems I see here:
1. Potentially compromising unit effectiveness through "Affirmative Action"
2. Producing reverse racism (they are changing the public face/acting as if they are ashamed of having competent white people?)
I meant to say, race shouldn't matter at all. It is ridiculous it is even mentioned in this context.
Bringing up "race" as an important factor here is hypocritical and actually propagating racism. They are saying it matters here because there is too much of one racial type... how is that not racism itself? Political correctness doesn't combat racism, but instead pushes in the opposite direction, dragging race into situations and areas where it is not important. They make race more important than things like combat effectiveness. They bring it up where it doesn't matter and has no effect on achieving goals. They put race first. Is that not true racism?
They're all American. That is enough.
It's volunteered service that has intense testing and standards to meet. Anyone who wants to join and try for the PRIVILEGE of being a SEAL is welcome. If you dont want to try or cant meet the standards then sorry but race has nothing to do with the fact that youre just not good enough.
Yeah, sure they can take down Osama Bin Laden. Sure they may be the best and the brightest, but doesn't it bug you that there's too many white boys on the team? Next time we take down an international terrorist, we need to make sure there's enough homosexual pacific islander midgets - because, you know, that's what is really important after all :blink:
My understanding is, the Navy is looking for more men to simply get through SEAL training, and perhaps it's been realized less minorities apply? I don't know how many apply vs how many get through training, etc, but I do know the pipe line is thin, and perhaps they have identified this as a possible route to change that?
That they are attempting to identify/attract minorities to apply is all good, as long as no quarter is given to to anyone due to race/color.
Of the NSW guys I have known, I got the distinct impression from them they wouldn't care if you were purple if you did the job well. Of course there are simple pragmatic reasons for attempting to attract more minorities:
"Traditional SEAL Team demographics will not support some of the emerging mission elements that will be required,"
Will - ideally that would be the case. I got the impression that this was more about Political Correctness than mission profile. If political pressure had the same affect as it does on other government jobs (e.g. "You really need to hire more candidates of race X, even if there are more qualified candidates from race Y") then compromise will be hard to avoid.
GeorgiaBoy
02-24-12, 16:36
"Traditional SEAL Team demographics will not support some of the emerging mission elements that will be required,"
Which is completely understandable. Having a good number of blacks for covert missions in Africa, Middle Eastern for the Middle East, ect is a great benefit.
I don't necessarily think that this article is trying to say that it's racist thar there are few minorities, but that perhaps current recruitment strategies aren't appealing to minorities, and perhaps that should be changed to encourage more people.
There aren't enough white people in the NBA, with hugely successful rap albums, in the administration of the NAACP or in the student body of "black" Universities.
Just as soon as these tragic and offensive inequities are resolved and we have something closer to true equality we should confirm that there is no preferential hiring practices that might result in a biased selection process for the US military and the special forces community.
Last I checked there were none, so can we please fix the NBA, rap star, NAACP and black University thing now?
I don't necessarily think that this article is trying to say that it's racist thar there are few minorities, but that perhaps current recruitment strategies aren't appealing to minorities, and perhaps that should be changed to encourage more people.
I think that the first qualifiers to be a Navy Seal should be the already existing desire, the ability to find your local Navy recruiter and the capacity to express your interest in becoming a Navy Seal all on your own without any outside assistance.
If a person has to be convinced or receive substantial outside motivation then they probably shouldn't be looking into that line of work.
http://www.upi.com/News_Photos/August_13_2008/August-13-2008/816/9/
I know being a SEAL is not all about the water, but it is about recruiting the best.
Army Chief
02-24-12, 17:50
Race has absolutely no business being infused in this. If you want to talk about shaping factors, fine. Mentorship (or perhaps a lack of same) in the special operations community? Sure. Cultural factors that tend to cause a community's sons to seek or shun particular roles within the service? Fair game. But please, let's be careful not to inject the language of preference or diversity goals or inequality into what remains a very objective, standards-based accession process.
AC
Amazing how different people can read into things differently. To me it simply looks like they are looking to attract more minorities to try out. Nowhere do I see them looking to give underqualified minorities a pass.
Encouraging diversity has nothing to do with giving unqualified people a pass and everything to do with making sure that people from different backgrounds realize that they are needed and welcomed if qualified for the job.
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If the bruvas ot vatos or whatever can't make the cut or have the desire to be a SEAL, who's fault is it?
If the bruvas ot vatos or whatever can't make the cut or have the desire to be a SEAL, who's fault is it?
Its not about them not being able to make the cut. Its about encouraging more to apply.
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I often wonder if our own cynicism and distrust creates conflict where there is none. Perhaps it's a pandering effort. Perhaps it's also an effort to expand an operational capability. Minority groups will bring an inherent language and appearance capability that that may benefit clandestine or low-pro operations.
As long as the bar remains high and only the worthy are selected, let's see what happens.
Bullshit. Outreach leads to pressure which leads to quotas. The fact is, the great majority of non white military folks avoid combat arms period. I've lived through two waves of affirmative action in the military in my 30 years and that is my experience
Its not about them not being able to make the cut. Its about encouraging more to apply.
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I don't think anyone needs to reach out to non white races & encourage them to join. Everyone knows who the SEALS are. It takes desire & determination to become one. Every soul on this earth is born with the capability of both.
One of the things I learned working for years in HR/Recruiting is that its not outreach that leads to quotas. Its people with closed minds which lack desire to reach out that lead to quotas. One of the key drivers for Affirmative Action was supposed to be having organizations do more to reach out and find "qualified" candidates from diverse backgrounds. Instead what happened is you had people in recruiting positions with no desire or knowledge on how to find diverse qualified candidates simply hiring whoever walked in the door and then blaming the results on Affirmative Action.
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Its not about them not being able to make the cut. Its about encouraging more to apply.
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If someone needs encouragement to apply, they've already failed.
One of the things I learned working for years in HR/Recruiting is that its not outreach that leads to quotas. Its people with closed minds which lack desire to reach out that lead to quotas. One of the key drivers for Affirmative Action was supposed to be having organizations do more to reach out and find "qualified" candidates from diverse backgrounds. Instead what happened is you had people in recruiting positions with no desire or knowledge on how to find diverse qualified candidates simply hiring whoever walked in the door and then blaming the results on Affirmative Action.
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This seems heavily flawed to me. You're blaming individuals for not "outreaching" enough. It is their fault for not finding qualified candidates, when the (minority) ones who come to them are not qualified enough?
I think you just showed that it is Affirmative Action's fault if they are forced to select the less qualified than the more qualified out of those candidates available to them.
Its not about them not being able to make the cut. Its about encouraging more to apply.
Again, it is my belief that no member of the special operations community needs to be "encouraged" to apply. If it isn't something that a person already wants, they have no business being there.
I suspect that there are already plenty of minorities who make the attempt, and like a huge number of white people, they simply don't make it.
Perhaps part of the reason is a life of being catered to as a minority applicant and expectations of "special consideration", but I'm not even sure about that. I think the real reason is that "special forces" is hard and most people simply don't understand what it takes and aren't prepared and don't succeed. And only the most dedicated come prepared or are willing to do what it takes.
And in that sense, the entire special operations community is a "minority" of men.
I often wonder if our own cynicism and distrust creates conflict where there is none.
It's a fair question, but most of us are cynical from experience.
ICANHITHIMMAN
02-24-12, 20:25
I also want a white entertainment television, equal rights and all
Don Robison
02-24-12, 20:34
They had Jake Zweig. :)
First I was thinking who? :confused: Then I was :haha:
There are a few missions where I can see additional melanin being an asset for clandestine intelligence gathering - beyond that, who gives a shit?
This seems heavily flawed to me. You're blaming individuals for not "outreaching" enough. It is their fault for not finding qualified candidates, when the (minority) ones who come to them are not qualified enough?
I think you just showed that it is Affirmative Action's fault if they are forced to select the less qualified than the more qualified out of those candidates available to them.
Why are they forced to pick from whatever unqualified candidates come to them? Why not go out and find the most qualified candidates the same way they do with White candidates. I have to admit that my experience and opinions are based on many years of consulting in HR/Recruiting where it was common for companies to hire me to help them with diversity. Most common issue I saw would be companies with predominantly White recruiters which were uncomfortable stepping outside of their social comfort zone. They were very good at finding and attracting highly qualified White candidates which we're easy to find at larger or predominantly White universities which fit into their social comfort zone. They often times struggled finding highly qualified minorities in the same recruiting pools because the numbers were simply smaller. Almost none spent any time recruiting Historical Black Colleges and those who did normally didn't fair well because they weren't even diverse enough to have a minorities on staff to do that recruiting for them.
May sound silly, but what they soon realized was minorities/women/etc are more sensitive to the whole "glass ceiling syndrome" where they tend to avoid organizations where they don't feel they will have at fair chance at success and growth within the organization . You'll notice I said fair chance at success and not lowered expectations, standards of measure, or free passes.
As a minority I can assure you that I have never been given a free pass nor have I been held to lower standards than my White counterparts. I have worked hard for everything that I have accomplished and done so in many cases while being held to higher expectations, under more scrutiny, with less room for error.
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One of the things I learned working for years in HR/Recruiting is that its not outreach that leads to quotas. Its people with closed minds which lack desire to reach out that lead to quotas. One of the key drivers for Affirmative Action was supposed to be having organizations do more to reach out and find "qualified" candidates from diverse backgrounds. Instead what happened is you had people in recruiting positions with no desire or knowledge on how to find diverse qualified candidates simply hiring whoever walked in the door and then blaming the results on Affirmative Action.
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Don't mean to derail this, but you threw it out.
Executive Order 11246, Affirmative Action, is THE biggest bunch of bullshit ever put into place.
I'm part owner and CEO of a construction firm that constructs water treatment facilities. Fed and state grant money requires that contractors make a "good faith effort" in accordance with 11246 to recruit minorities for participation in the bidding project.
This means letters written, phone calls made and logged, advertisements in local newspapers...all contacts are from agencies representing minorities. Money out of our pocket when we can least afford it. We have less than a 5% response from all this effort.
If you are too stupid or too lazy as to how to find out how to become a SEAL, you're too stupid or lazy to be a SEAL. Or anything else for that matter.
Moose-Knuckle
02-24-12, 20:47
They had Jake Zweig. :)
When I read that article this was the first thing that popped in my mind! :D
http://nextleveltraining.com/product/jake-zweig-targets-10-pack
http://i10.photobucket.com/albums/a144/AKS-74/Jake20promo20shooting20small.jpg
BTT:
Stories like this remind me of just how F***ED UP our nation is these days. . .
I also want a white entertainment television, equal rights and all
What makes you think it doesn't already exist? In all seriousness you have to look back 25yrs or so at television programming to understand how BET came about. Contrary to popular belief our diverse country is composed of people from all sorts of backgrounds and cultures. Mainstream TV programming is targeted to the majority of TV viewers which happen to be White. Why should all minorities be expected to watch only what White America finds entertaining? Would it be fair to expect Whites to watch what some minorities find to be entertaining? Take race out of the equation and break it down to politics. Would it be fair to expect everyone to watch liberal mi red programming and news......I mean it does make up the majority of programming but you don't hear people complaining about how unfair it is that Conservative radio and news outlets exist.
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Moose-Knuckle
02-24-12, 21:00
What makes you think it doesn't already exist? In all seriousness you have to look back 25yrs or so at television programming to understand how BET came about. Contrary to popular belief our diverse country is composed of people from all sorts of backgrounds and cultures. Mainstream TV programming is targeted to the majority of TV viewers which happen to be White. Why should all minorities be expected to watch only what White America finds entertaining? Would it be fair to expect Whites to watch what some minorities find to be entertaining? Take race out of the equation and break it down to politics. Would it be fair to expect everyone to watch liberal mi red programming and news......I mean it does make up the majority of programming but you don't hear people complaining about how unfair it is that Conservative radio and news outlets exist.
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In modern America it would be racist to have a WET channel or Ivory magazine.
“All animals are equal, but some animals are more equal than others.”
― George Orwell, Animal Farm
Why not go out and find the most qualified candidates the same way they do with White candidates.
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And they do this how exactly?
Belmont31R
02-24-12, 21:10
What makes you think it doesn't already exist? In all seriousness you have to look back 25yrs or so at television programming to understand how BET came about. Contrary to popular belief our diverse country is composed of people from all sorts of backgrounds and cultures. Mainstream TV programming is targeted to the majority of TV viewers which happen to be White. Why should all minorities be expected to watch only what White America finds entertaining? Would it be fair to expect Whites to watch what some minorities find to be entertaining? Take race out of the equation and break it down to politics. Would it be fair to expect everyone to watch liberal mi red programming and news......I mean it does make up the majority of programming but you don't hear people complaining about how unfair it is that Conservative radio and news outlets exist.
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Its demographics. If less than 15% of the US population is black as of the 2010 Census then less than 15% of TV shows will be geared to black people. Growing up there were several black oriented shows. I used to watch Fresh Prince of Bel Air (which came out in 1990- 22 years ago) and Family Matters. These were all on mainstream networks, and there were quite a few others like the Cosby show.
Several of these were from the 70's, 80's, and 90's. http://www.thegrio.com/entertainment/slideshow-the-best-black-sitcoms-of-all-time.php
Personally I hate all this conforming to certain percentages of this or that. Not enough black people, not enough asians, not enough indians, not enough Italians, whatever. Wheres my Dutch and Polish shows? Tests are too hard for minorities so we have to change the standards. Not enough black people on TV so we have to fire white people and hire blacks. Not enough black SEALs so we have to change that.
This all just social engineering and pandering to certain demographics. We are going to social engineer ourselves right into obscurity instead of just giving everyone opportunity to do what they want their lives and have to "force" things. I don't give a shit if theres a BET or WET or whatever the hell people want to do. I just don't watch what I don't want to watch.
Now every show has to have an Asian, a black, a white, latino, males and females, gay/lesbian/straight and whatever the **** else special category people want to identify with otherwise they get lambasted as being "anti-XYZ". I was born in 1983 I never thought there was a shortage of shows with black people in them but then again I don't spend my entire life looking for some percentage of something that is slightly off and call everything racist.
Moose-Knuckle
02-24-12, 21:19
Its demographics. If less than 15% of the US population is black as of the 2010 Census then less than 15% of TV shows will be geared to black people. Growing up there were several black oriented shows. I used to watch Fresh Prince of Bel Air (which came out in 1990- 22 years ago) and Family Matters. These were all on mainstream networks, and there were quite a few others like the Cosby show.
Several of these were from the 70's, 80's, and 90's. http://www.thegrio.com/entertainment/slideshow-the-best-black-sitcoms-of-all-time.php
Personally I hate all this conforming to certain percentages of this or that. Not enough black people, not enough asians, not enough indians, not enough Italians, whatever. Wheres my Dutch and Polish shows? Tests are too hard for minorities so we have to change the standards. Not enough black people on TV so we have to fire white people and hire blacks. Not enough black SEALs so we have to change that.
This all just social engineering and pandering to certain demographics. We are going to social engineer ourselves right into obscurity instead of just giving everyone opportunity to do what they want their lives and have to "force" things. I don't give a shit if theres a BET or WET or whatever the hell people want to do. I just don't watch what I don't want to watch.
Now every show has to have an Asian, a black, a white, latino, males and females, gay/lesbian/straight and whatever the **** else special category people want to identify with otherwise they get lambasted as being "anti-XYZ". I was born in 1983 I never thought there was a shortage of shows with black people in them but then again I don't spend my entire life looking for some percentage of something that is slightly off and call everything racist.
100% spot on.
Growing up in the 80's my favorite cartoon (G.I. Joe) had many black characters; Road Block, Doc, Iceberg to name a few. My favorite prime time TV show was The A-Team and we all know who the star of that show was. . .
Evil Colt 6920
02-24-12, 21:27
http://i497.photobucket.com/albums/rr339/shotgunspree/27372765.jpg
Wheres my Dutch and Polish shows?
http://s14.bdbphotos.com/images/huge/h/1/h145mu6mgerlg56m.jpg
You asked...
Tests are too hard for minorities so we have to change the standards. Not enough black people on TV so we have to fire white people and hire blacks. Not enough black SEALs so we have to change that.
This all just social engineering and pandering to certain demographics. We are going to social engineer ourselves right into obscurity instead of just giving everyone opportunity to do what they want their lives and have to "force" things. I don't give a shit if theres a BET or WET or whatever the hell people want to do. I just don't watch what I don't want to watch.
Now every show has to have an Asian, a black, a white, latino, males and females, gay/lesbian/straight and whatever the **** else special category people want to identify with otherwise they get lambasted as being "anti-XYZ". I was born in 1983 I never thought there was a shortage of shows with black people in them but then again I don't spend my entire life looking for some percentage of something that is slightly off and call everything racist.
I think it is funny to look at certain shows or movies of commercials and check off the different groups that are represented. Instead of finding characters that fit the show, they fit the PC checklist instead...
well next of course will be some senator or something saying to get more ethnic mix they need to lower the requirements for minorities to get accepted and pass only for them of course !
GeorgiaBoy
02-24-12, 22:24
I disagree with the whole "SF guys already know who they are, they don't need to be encouraged".
You don't come out of the womb wanting to be Special Forces. It's a decision or thought process you develop. To say that you already should want to be SF before you even join the military is simply false IMO. You may not decide you actually want to do it until years into your military career. That doesn't mean that your "unfit" for the job because you havnt always wanted it.
Why are they forced to pick from whatever unqualified candidates come to them? Why not go out and find the most qualified candidates the same way they do with White candidates. I have to admit that my experience and opinions are based on many years of consulting in HR/Recruiting where it was common for companies to hire me to help them with diversity. Most common issue I saw would be companies with predominantly White recruiters which were uncomfortable stepping outside of their social comfort zone. They were very good at finding and attracting highly qualified White candidates which we're easy to find at larger or predominantly White universities which fit into their social comfort zone.
What you're saying here makes sense to me in an organization. I was going from the standpoint that they were not actively recruiting, but instead just accepting those who came to them - but then being forced to seek out and recruit minority candidates specifically, but not doing the same for white. I agree with you that there could be innate comfort levels among recruiters.
That said - I am cynical here as well. I am assuming that all the current candidates are coming to them, and they are going out of there way to find minorities simply because they feel they are too white (for political correctness / to meet quotas). Of course, the reverse would also be bad. I just don't think race should play a role in evaluating candidates - outside of a certain mission profile (e.g. white dude might not look good try to pretend to be a Taliban fighter).
I disagree with the whole "SF guys already know who they are, they don't need to be encouraged".
You don't come out of the womb wanting to be Special Forces. It's a decision or thought process you develop. To say that you already should want to be SF before you even join the military is simply false IMO. You may not decide you actually want to do it until years into your military career. That doesn't mean that your "unfit" for the job because you havnt always wanted it.
It doesn't happen in the womb, it usually takes at least 12 years.
:D
And you are now talking about an entirely different scenario.
In the scenario most of us posted about, the candidate at some point DECIDED to pursue this goal, and that is fine. And you seem to agree.
But what most of us have objected to is not a candidate coming to that realization late in the game, but actually needing to have it suggested by somebody else and requiring outside encouragement to make the decision.
I also suspect if this wasn't specifically a racial issue, it wouldn't be an issue. If the Navy announced a general program of promotion to encourage people who may not have considered a career in special forces and we came here with the same basic objection (and I have that basic objection regardless of race), I don't think we'd be having this discussion.
Simply put...I hate ALL racism. And all racism is bad, even when we pretend that some kinds of racism are helpful or positive. And I can't think of anyone who should be more pissed than the current black members of the special forces community who having to listen to crap along the lines of "black people need special encouragement to succeed." It must drive them ****ing nuts.
Let me start this by saying that I am in no way shape or form racist. I am also not directing this at anyone who has already posted in this thread.
A minority is just that, a minority. If you have a larger population of one group and a smaller population of another, there will always be a ratio thus having minorities.
This concerns me because this type of activity is VERY prevalent in police work where I live. I know for a fact that standards have been lowered in hopes for minorities to apply (women are included in this specific group of minorities). Testing was changed in written exams, oral exams and physical agility exams.
What were the outcomes?
Still a very low turnout of minority applicants, longer time in field training and many more probationary officers being let go because of inability to perform their duties.
This bothers me not because of an influx of minorities into the system but because the standards are lowered and no matter who you are, your life is on the line. In L.E. and more so in MIL, lowering standards will result in loss of life which I find totally UNSAT!
If you want it, work for it! Bust your ass and get bloody and muddy and sweaty. If you are sitting on the sidelines whining and moaning that there are not enough these or those in this or that group, then you are too much of a sissy to be a part of that group.
GeorgiaBoy
02-24-12, 23:08
It doesn't happen in the womb, it usually takes at least 12 years.
:D
.
Yeah, when they see Rambo for the first time. ;)
All in all I mostly agree with what you said. I still don't see a problem with trying to appeal to minorities who might think that SF is not for them when it really could be, though at the same time things shouldn't be changed JUST because there aren't as many minorities, and we are trying to force them in.
Belmont31R
02-24-12, 23:33
Let me start this by saying that I am in no way shape or form racist. I am also not directing this at anyone who has already posted in this thread.
A minority is just that, a minority. If you have a larger population of one group and a smaller population of another, there will always be a ratio thus having minorities.
This concerns me because this type of activity is VERY prevalent in police work where I live. I know for a fact that standards have been lowered in hopes for minorities to apply (women are included in this specific group of minorities). Testing was changed in written exams, oral exams and physical agility exams.
What were the outcomes?
Still a very low turnout of minority applicants, longer time in field training and many more probationary officers being let go because of inability to perform their duties.
This bothers me not because of an influx of minorities into the system but because the standards are lowered and no matter who you are, your life is on the line. In L.E. and more so in MIL, lowering standards will result in loss of life which I find totally UNSAT!
If you want it, work for it! Bust your ass and get bloody and muddy and sweaty. If you are sitting on the sidelines whining and moaning that there are not enough these or those in this or that group, then you are too much of a sissy to be a part of that group.
When I was at Ft. Lewis we used to go by the SF area and Ranger barracks all the time. They had SF recruiting signs on post. If a black person wants to do it theres nothing stopping them. Specifically advertising for blacks is wrong, IMO, just as it would be for whites. IIRC they had monthly or bi monthly setups on post where you could go talk to the guys about SF and get people interested. No need for special minority versions of this or whatever. The chance is there for anyone who wants to try.
If my information is right there are way more blacks in support units than combat arms, and a lot more people go to SF through CA than support. In prior deployments and training sessions where we were tasked to CA you saw very few black people. At least as far as Army in concerned it would make sense for SF to have way more white people than blacks just due to the fact CA units are mostly white. I even did lots of cross training with out scout/fister brigade recon team and I think they had a total of maybe 3 black guys.
I tried to get onto a B team for communications but my unit was so lacking in people there was no way I was getting out of there. My commo unit was supposed to have 6 man teams and the most we had on any one team was 3. Nuts...
This seems all very confusing to me. You would think that the Teams would have no problem recruiting since blacks and asians dominate the 400M freestyle event in the Olympics every 4 years (sarcasm).
All kidding aside, I suspect that the lack of cultural interest in water sports as youths lead most minority candidates away from careers that emphasize swimming. It is probably a matter of interest rather than capability since the minimum swimming standards can be achieved by almost anyone willing to put in the effort.
Belmont31R
02-25-12, 01:21
This seems all very confusing to me. You would think that the Teams would have no problem recruiting since blacks and asians dominate the 400M freestyle event in the Olympics every 4 years (sarcasm).
All kidding aside, I suspect that the lack of cultural interest in water sports as youths lead most minority candidates away from careers that emphasize swimming. It is probably a matter of interest rather than capability since the minimum swimming standards can be achieved by almost anyone willing to put in the effort.
Its not that people cannot learn to swim its that you have to be used to it and then swim while being drug underwater, tending to other people in water, ect. Some people just have a fear of water they can't get over. I was lucky and was in YMCA classes as young as 5-6 so I can jump in the ocean or pool just fine. Growing up I was at the beach 1-2 days a week. The only thing I don't like about open water swimming is sharks and creepy things like jelly fish. Just last week they took video of a Great White in the waves where I used to go swimming quite a bit.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/09/02/photo-great-white-shark-san-diego_n_946601.html
FWIW a lot of the places I have swam in are by where the Pacific Coast SEAL's train at and even though its soCal that water is a lot colder than you would think especially in the winter. Ive gone in during winter months and within 10 minutes you can barely move. Its not for the faint of heart or easy quitters. Everyone envisions the Pacific with Hawaii and all that over there. Even summer around SD the water can be cool. Winter is downright miserable unless you have a thick wet suit.
Stay here and go into that water in Nov-Mar to give you a good perspective on what these guys go through.... http://www.hoteldel.com/
Belmont31R
02-25-12, 01:25
Double..
I think it might be a liability.
Everyone knows the black dude gets killed first. Don't these people watch action & horror movies?
:D
RogerinTPA
02-25-12, 05:45
Bullshit. Outreach leads to pressure which leads to quotas. The fact is, the great majority of non white military folks avoid combat arms period. I've lived through two waves of affirmative action in the military in my 30 years and that is my experience
Agreed.
Being African American myself, there is a great aversion towards doing dangerous things in the black community, unless an individual has a high sense of adventure and a lot of mentor-ship from family members, friends and teachers who have gone that route. I remember at a family reunion several years ago, a discussion came up about some military action, involving several heroic acts. I counted at least a dozen comments about, "Black people wouldn't do that, or ski, scuba, ...thats for white people, etc... My nieces said, well uncle Roger snow and water skis, jumped out of airplanes, flies helicopters and airplanes, etc...they looked at me like I had a 2nd head growing out of my neck. My dad was a retired Korean war/Vietnam era Special Forces O-6. My JROTC Instructors in High School were both retired E-8 African American Special Forces Soldiers. I was the only one in the following schools/courses: Infantry Basic and AIT, Airborne, Ranger, Air Assault, CDC course, Army Flight School, Instructor pilot courses, airline pilot, now a pilot in AFG or a carbine and/or pistol course. The only one on every military rifle team I've ever been on. I'm also the only one normally on a ski slope or I'm scuba diving somewhere. Along the way, I've met several African American SOF warriors, military aviators and the like, but only a hand full, definitely more airline pilots than back in the day. I simply cannot be confined to a desk or a cubical. It's either in your blood or it isn't.
One of the things I learned working for years in HR/Recruiting is that its not outreach that leads to quotas. Its people with closed minds which lack desire to reach out that lead to quotas. One of the key drivers for Affirmative Action was supposed to be having organizations do more to reach out and find "qualified" candidates from diverse backgrounds. Instead what happened is you had people in recruiting positions with no desire or knowledge on how to find diverse qualified candidates simply hiring whoever walked in the door and then blaming the results on Affirmative Action.
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It is human nature to take the easy way out. Therefore my original point stands and is in fact supported by your post. Unless you really believe that all it takes to make a bad system work is "better people".
I have talented minority friends who have been screwed over by the same system so whites are not the only ones who get punjed.
From http://www.rand.org/pubs/monograph_reports/MR1042/index.html
Barriers to Minority Participation in Special Operations Forces
By: Margaret C. Harrell, Sheila Nataraj Kirby, Jennifer Sloan McCombs, Clifford M. Graf, II, Christopher McKelvey, Jerry M. Sollinger
This report assesses minority representation and recruiting in special operations forces (SOF). It examines the extent of underrepresentation of minorities in SOF and the reasons for it and provides recommendations to help improve such underrepresentation. The authors used personnel data from the U.S. Special Operations Command and the various component commands to portray the racial/ethnic composition of SOF and compared it to the racial/ethnic composition of different comparison groups. The study found that minorities are, indeed, underrepresented in SOF — especially blacks. Barriers to joining SOF consisted of structural barriers such as the ASVAB score cutoffs and the swimming requirement, perceptual barriers such as lack of knowledge and community support and lack of identification with SOF, as well as a possible lack of interest in SOF. The authors offer several recommendations to overcome these barriers.
Contents
Chapter One:
Introduction
Chapter Two:
Are Minorities Underrepresented in SOF?
Chapter Three:
Barriers to Minority Participation in the Assessment and Training Process
Chapter Four:
Qualitative Methodology
Chapter Five:
Perceptions of SOF and a SOF Career As Barriers to Participation
Chapter Six:
Lack of Individual Knowledge and Community Support of SOF As a Barrier to Participation
Chapter Seven:
Lack of Identification As a Barrier to Participation
Chapter Eight:
Swimming Requirement As a Barrier to Participation
Chapter Nine:
Lack of Interest in SOF As a Barrier to Minority Participation
Chapter Ten:
Service Efforts to Increase Minority Representation in SOF
Chapter Eleven:
Conclusions and Recommendations
Appendix A:
SOF: Background and Missions
Appendix B:
SOF Assessment and Training
Appendix C:
Defining Source Populations for SOF
Appendix D:
Comparisons of SOF with Selected Civilian Organizations
Appendix E:
Analysis of Army SFAS Data, FY94-FY97
Appendix F:
Protocols for Focus Group Discussions
As a minority I don't think the standards or qualifications should be changed. Efforts to attract more recruits can be increased but don't cut the standards.
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If you speak with people in the Special Operations community you will find out this topic has been mentioned time and time again.
I know when I was in the Army it was discussed and when I was in the Coast Guard they brought this up as well.
I have heard (rumors, scuttlebuut or whatever you want to call it) that part of the issue was that there are certain minority groups that were either weak swimmers or had an aversion to water. Whether or not that is true, I have no idea.
If you speak with people in the Special Operations community you will find out this topic has been mentioned time and time again.
I know when I was in the Army it was discussed and when I was in the Coast Guard they brought this up as well.
I have heard (rumors, scuttlebuut or whatever you want to call it) that part of the issue was that there are certain minority groups that were either weak swimmers or had an aversion to water. Whether or not that is true, I have no idea.
IG there is a lot of truth to the rumors. I know Blacks in particular tend in general do not care for water as much Whites do. Of course this is a broad generalization however to test this start polling the Black friends to see how much they like water....in particular the ocean or large/deep bodies of water. Notice you don't see many of us running out to buy sail boats and such or spending lots of time out on the deep seas fishing...LOL.
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You guys also don't munched on in all the shark movies either. :D
IG there is a lot of truth to the rumors. I know Blacks in particular tend in general do not care for water as much Whites do. Of course this is a broad generalization however to test this start polling the Black friends to see how much they like water....in particular the ocean or large/deep bodies of water. Notice you don't see many of us running out to buy sail boats and such or spending lots of time out on the deep seas fishing...LOL.
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You guys also don't munched on in all the shark movies either. :D
There's a lot of other things you don't see us do either. We don't like cold water and don't have much desire to rock/mountain climb or jump out of perfectly good planes...LOL ;)
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Reagans Rascals
02-25-12, 12:29
not to be racist... but this is a proven fact...
African Americans tend to come from inner cities where they have no access to water to swim, and thus many don't like to or even know how to swim. And second, they tend to not like the cold. 2 factors that are essentially what make SEAL's, SEAL's. Cold Water...
if you think I'm talking shit, or just being racist... look up the numerous studies on it.
How many black hockey players do you see?
Its not that the Navy is racist at all, it's simply that not many African Americans or other minorities for that matter, seek out the challenge of BUD/s.
There are more than a few Black Navy SEAL's, that are pure badass... and I'll never say they can't do it, I'm simply saying that the numbers are low because many simply choose not to, regardless of ability.
not to be racist... but this is a proven fact...
African Americans tend to come from inner cities where they have no access to water to swim, and thus many don't like to or even know how to swim. And second, they tend to not like the cold. 2 factors that are essentially what make SEAL's, SEAL's. Cold Water...
if you think I'm talking shit, or just being racist... look up the numerous studies on it.
How many black hockey players do you see?
Its not that the Navy is racist at all, it's simply that not many African Americans or other minorities for that matter, seek out the challenge of BUD/s.
There are more than a few Black Navy SEAL's, that are pure badass... and I'll never say they can't do it, I'm simply saying that the numbers are low because many simply choose not to, regardless of ability.
Its not racist....it's fact.
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Basic population dynamics:
Most Blacks live in urban areas. Most urban areas do not have a lot opportunities for water sports. Most Blacks do not learn to swim or do not swim well.
Next slide....
When I was at Ft. Lewis we used to go by the SF area and Ranger barracks all the time. They had SF recruiting signs on post. If a black person wants to do it theres nothing stopping them. Specifically advertising for blacks is wrong, IMO, just as it would be for whites. IIRC they had monthly or bi monthly setups on post where you could go talk to the guys about SF and get people interested. No need for special minority versions of this or whatever. The chance is there for anyone who wants to try.
If my information is right there are way more blacks in support units than combat arms, and a lot more people go to SF through CA than support. In prior deployments and training sessions where we were tasked to CA you saw very few black people. At least as far as Army in concerned it would make sense for SF to have way more white people than blacks just due to the fact CA units are mostly white. I even did lots of cross training with out scout/fister brigade recon team and I think they had a total of maybe 3 black guys.
I tried to get onto a B team for communications but my unit was so lacking in people there was no way I was getting out of there. My commo unit was supposed to have 6 man teams and the most we had on any one team was 3. Nuts...
The entire time I was in the NAV as a Cryptologist, I saw exactly 3 black people. The only thing I can figure out was that they couldn't get a TS/SCI (don't know).
C4
After reading a lot of the replies to this thread, I'm actually feeling swayed towards the other side of this argument. As long as there is no "affirmative action" program (e.g. extra points based on race/religion/gender status) - encouraging the best of the best among minorities to participate in SF wouldn't be a bad thing - anyone participating would be risking their neck and taking on quite a burden to help the country.
Just that attitude that "oh no, we're too white" or liberal attempts at social engineering makes me want to puke :bad:
LowSpeed_HighDrag
02-25-12, 14:47
The navy has a minority race, its called everything-but-Phillipino.
In fact, there are more traditional minority races in a given Naval command than white people. I see sailors of all races in every rate, except for the IT's, never seen anything but white IT's.
IG there is a lot of truth to the rumors. I know Blacks in particular tend in general do not care for water as much Whites do. Of course this is a broad generalization however to test this start polling the Black friends to see how much they like water....in particular the ocean or large/deep bodies of water. Notice you don't see many of us running out to buy sail boats and such or spending lots of time out on the deep seas fishing...LOL.
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My roomie in college and best man at my wedding is black, and cannot swim to save his life. He's actually a Combat Arms O-6 now, and passed his drown-proofing by bouncing along the bottom of the pool while frantically dog paddling in between.
I was just an ignorant Iowa farm kid when we met and he swore to me up and down that "black people cannot swim." He's not the last black dude I've met who has made this assertion.
sniperfrog
02-25-12, 20:12
My BUD/S class had 3 black dudes out of 138. All three made it through.
My last platoon had 2 black guys in it out of 16. We were an arctic warfare platoon so they were are snow-bros.
We used to joke that we had 50% of the black guys in the Teams in that one platoon. Actually it was more like 20%. :smile:
There's not alot of Asian guys in the Teams either. I can only think of 3 that I knew.
My fear has been the feminazi groups pushing for women in the Teams. Hopefully I'll be dead by then.
QuietShootr
02-25-12, 20:35
Yeah, sure they can take down Osama Bin Laden. Sure they may be the best and the brightest, but doesn't it bug you that there's too many white boys on the team? Next time we take down an international terrorist, we need to make sure there's enough homosexual pacific islander midgets - because, you know, that's what is really important after all :blink:
For ****'S SAKE.
**** this planet.
QuietShootr
02-25-12, 20:37
Which is completely understandable. Having a good number of blacks for covert missions in Africa, Middle Eastern for the Middle East, ect is a great benefit.
I don't necessarily think that this article is trying to say that it's racist thar there are few minorities, but that perhaps current recruitment strategies aren't appealing to minorities, and perhaps that should be changed to encourage more people.
Oh, **** me.
Ever seen a unit with black guys in it doing a CWST?
Same reason you don't see a lot of champion pygmy basketball players.
The navy has a minority race, its called everything-but-Phillipino.
In fact, there are more traditional minority races in a given Naval command than white people. I see sailors of all races in every rate, except for the IT's, never seen anything but white IT's.
LOL. CT merged into IT's (which explains why that rate is all white).
C4
This whole thing is overwhelmingly simple. The Military is a volunteer force. You choose your branch, you choose your job (assuming you meet the standards of selection). The same information about job descriptions and opportunities is available for everyone.
For whatever reason, black people do not commonly choose traditional Combat Arms jobs. Why can't units and organizations in the military just select from the pool of applicants that offer themselves without trying to modify that pool? Coercing certain groups through targeted advertising (based off of anything, not just race) is going to lower the quality of the applicants. Half the reason certain units are so much more professional than others is that it takes a certain type of person to consider that unit in the first place.
Look at the 75th Ranger Regiment. Triple volunteers. First, they have volunteered for Infantry, then Airborne, then RIP/ROP/RASP (whatever the hell it is now), and later, Ranger School. It's no surprise that even their privates are professional and dedicated.
Targeting certain groups instead of letting people's moral character be the guide for volunteering will weaken the whole system. It dilutes the volunteer spirit. Like it or not, targeted advertising / recruitment based off race is a form of coercion. You'll wind up with people slipping through the cracks who perhaps didn't really want to be there in the first place.
Advertise the job - and let whoever feels moved to perform those duties enter the selection process. That's the purest way to ensure quality.
platoonDaddy
02-25-12, 21:59
From an old man and only speaking of my experience:
Prior to the termination of the draft, the infantry units (at least the ones I was in) had a VERY high number of blacks. Following the termination of the draft the numbers certainly reversed.
The REMF units are certainly weighted towards the blacks.
In the 90's their was a research paper from one of the "think tanks" that went through the evolution of the infantry following the termination of the draft. Will continue to search for the article and post when I locate.
Don't want to distort the findings from my aging memory.
The Bell is color-blind..
http://images.debbiekinil.multiply.com/image/ZCHjf6DhnqbxvfDTctzp+g/photos/1M/300x300/655/buds-bell.jpg?et=CdYmp2U5wyXcIeSa9CNUsA&nmid=0
Reagans Rascals
02-26-12, 00:19
if I'm not mistaken.... aren't most of the SEAL's they show in commercials Black? David Goggins Comes to mind... as does Chief Rob Roy who was the main personality of the original SOCOM games for PS2...
Iraq Ninja
02-26-12, 00:34
Even in the Rangers we were nick named the AWB (all white battaltion) and the reason given (incorrectly) was that the swim test was the issue. It think this way of thinking still exists today, even though research says it is not correct.
http://www.aquaticsintl.com/2005/oct/0510_minority.html
One of the most unshakable remnants of that history is the myth that black kids simply don’t — and can’t — swim. To this day, parents in some black communities buy into the belief. This incongruous notion is based on a 1969 study called The Negro and Learning to Swim, which said that blacks were biologically less buoyant than whites because of higher density in their bones and body mass.
Even some individuals in the aquatics industry continue to give this theory credence, despite dozens of studies since that prove the premise false. Most coaches, however, laugh at the thought, saying it’s a study that needs to be challenged and discredited in the public dialogue.
“It’s a common stereotype among black people,” says Lee Pitts, founder of the Lee Pitts Swim School in Fort Lauderdale, Fla., which is geared toward teaching black kids how to swim. “So many people buy into that myth. The reality is that swimming ability has absolutely nothing to do with biological or anatomical differences between the racial groups.
“Blacks are more muscular people as adults,” continues Pitt, who is black. “That doesn’t mean that blacks can’t learn to swim well. If a black person says it, they start to listen. If a white person says it, it’s inflammatory. We need to start dismissing these stereotypes and give them no credence so they can slowly erode.”
Even in the Rangers we were nick named the AWB (all white battaltion) and the reason given (incorrectly) was that the swim test was the issue. It think this way of thinking still exists today, even though research says it is not correct.
http://www.aquaticsintl.com/2005/oct/0510_minority.html
When I was at boot camp there were 6 blacks in my division, all 6 had to take the remedial swimming lessons. I was damned near drowned doing the buddy circle during battle stations because the (black) dude next to me kept trying to use me as a flotation device.
A self-fulfilling prophecy?
On the thread topic:
There weren't many blacks in my branch, submarines. There were 3 on my boat. My graduation from Power School was the largest gathering of my job field (nuke) I saw while in the service, of the 200-ish baby nukes 2 were black. There were no black nukes at Kings Bay that I knew of. From what I've seen, the more selective any organization becomes, military or civilian, the more white it is. What does this say? I honestly don't know.
I don't believe it's an outreach problem though.
Mauser KAR98K
02-26-12, 02:27
When I was at boot camp there were 6 blacks in my division, all 6 had to take the remedial swimming lessons. I was damned near drowned doing the buddy circle during battle stations because the (black) dude next to me kept trying to use me as a flotation device.
A self-fulfilling prophecy?
On the thread topic:
There weren't many blacks in my branch, submarines. There were 3 on my boat. My graduation from Power School was the largest gathering of my job field (nuke) I saw while in the service, of the 200-ish baby nukes 2 were black. There were no black nukes at Kings Bay that I knew of. From what I've seen, the more selective any organization becomes, military or civilian, the more white it is. What does this say? I honestly don't know.
I don't believe it's an outreach problem though.
It's called the welfare state stifling potential.
To me it simply looks like they are looking to attract more minorities to try out. Nowhere do I see them looking to give underqualified minorities a pass.
Encouraging diversity has nothing to do with giving unqualified people a pass and everything to do with making sure that people from different backgrounds realize that they are needed and welcomed if qualified for the job.
This. People are reading too much into this.
This whole thing is overwhelmingly simple. The Military is a volunteer force. You choose your branch, you choose your job (assuming you meet the standards of selection). The same information about job descriptions and opportunities is available for everyone.
For whatever reason, black people do not commonly choose traditional Combat Arms jobs. Why can't units and organizations in the military just select from the pool of applicants that offer themselves without trying to modify that pool? Coercing certain groups through targeted advertising (based off of anything, not just race) is going to lower the quality of the applicants. Half the reason certain units are so much more professional than others is that it takes a certain type of person to consider that unit in the first place.
Look at the 75th Ranger Regiment. Triple volunteers. First, they have volunteered for Infantry, then Airborne, then RIP/ROP/RASP (whatever the hell it is now), and later, Ranger School. It's no surprise that even their privates are professional and dedicated.
Targeting certain groups instead of letting people's moral character be the guide for volunteering will weaken the whole system. It dilutes the volunteer spirit. Like it or not, targeted advertising / recruitment based off race is a form of coercion. You'll wind up with people slipping through the cracks who perhaps didn't really want to be there in the first place.
Advertise the job - and let whoever feels moved to perform those duties enter the selection process. That's the purest way to ensure quality.
The most sensible observations I've seen in the entire thread.
RogerinTPA
02-26-12, 05:46
Basic population dynamics:
Most Blacks live in urban areas. Most urban areas do not have a lot opportunities for water sports. Most Blacks do not learn to swim or do not swim well.
Next slide....
Perhaps in today's world.
When I grew up as a kid in the 70s in inner city Detroit, every kid I knew, knew how to swim. We used to go to Rec pools in the city and the beach every weekend and damn near daily in the summer. I was even a life guard during summer vacation at a large beach north of Detroit, but blacks were scarce when it came to open water (large lake) swimming, never venturing out beyond chest deep water. That said, I never really observed whites venturing out beyond chest deep water either. The idea for most people in general was to cool off, play grab ass, and have fun.
QuietShootr
02-26-12, 07:32
When I was at boot camp there were 6 blacks in my division, all 6 had to take the remedial swimming lessons. I was damned near drowned doing the buddy circle during battle stations because the (black) dude next to me kept trying to use me as a flotation device.
A self-fulfilling prophecy?
On the thread topic:
There weren't many blacks in my branch, submarines. There were 3 on my boat. My graduation from Power School was the largest gathering of my job field (nuke) I saw while in the service, of the 200-ish baby nukes 2 were black. There were no black nukes at Kings Bay that I knew of. From what I've seen, the more selective any organization becomes, military or civilian, the more white it is. What does this say? I honestly don't know.
I don't believe it's an outreach problem though.
Go to the library, check out "The Bell Curve" by Murray and Hernstein, and report back.
As for the red section: I have never seen such sheer terror in a human being like the last CWST I took. We had ONE black kid in our company and if he could have turned white at the idea of jumping into a pool and swimming 50m in full gear, he would have. I had to walk alongside him the length of the pool and keep reminding him that A) he COULD do it, and B) if he touched the side of the pool he was a no-go. I'll give credit where credit is due, he did it, but I really thought he was going to just go into shock and sink from panic. I've seen that happen a lot more than I've seen Marcus Spitz jump in and swim like a fish.
It's not a damn insult. I'm never going to be comfortable with higher mathematics, either - I'd be willing to bet the average rickshaw jockey in Hong Kong has more mathematical ability in his little finger than I have been able to develop through the course of a master's and some postgraduate work toward my doctorate. It just isn't my thing, and some of that has to be genetic.
Go to the library, check out "The Bell Curve" by Murray and Hernstein, and report back.
I read it several years ago, I remember the gist.
It's a cultural issue, not a racial one, not that "race" is a scientifically measurable concept. Americans are pretty well ethnically mixed anyhow. Blacks here have over 1/4 of their genetic material borrowed from whites and native americans. Whites in the south have nearly that much black and native american DNA too.
If blacks are dumb, why do recent black immigrants and their children attain university degrees at rates higher than asians?
Chinese and Koreans are pretty well regarded in the US, but go over to Japan and it's an entirely different story.
You'll hear in the news that "poor" people in the USA don't live as long as "rich people"... except for hispanics, who smoke a lot less than most people. In fact they found that booze and smokes makes for a pretty level playing field. When you adjust for having a single mother raise you, whites and blacks have nearly the same rates of legal and emotional problems, poverty, etc.
I believe in badass deathdealing seal teams as much as any one, but I doubt they've ever been hard up for recruits, kind of a waste of money IMHO. It's kind of odd that a country with tactical nuclear weapons feels the need to get down in the mud as frequently as we do with disagreeable people who usually don't even have an air force, much less nuclear deterrent. Someone is getting paid with my money and it ain't me, it also ain't you. Maybe hitting the camps with airbursts back in '01 was viewed by some as too quick and economical compared with an endless stream of fiat currency for "nation building", it's kind of obvious both parties boarded the gravy train a while ago.
Go to the library, check out "The Bell Curve" by Murray and Hernstein, and report back.
Actually, Murray's most recent book, Coming Apart: The State of White America, is a better explanation of why you don't see more backs in elite units. Although this book deals only with white populations (to head off the racism charges of his earlier works), this same principles apply to the black community - and probably to a much greater extent. That is, a lack of ingenuity, commitment to marriage, honesty, AND RELIGION subvert social cohesion. This creates 2 classes of people and you can guess which class elite units draw from for manpower.
Something tells me that many of our paleo-libertarian colleagues on this forum will conveniently omit this most recent work from their Summer reading list.
Littlelebowski
02-27-12, 07:38
Actually, Murray's most recent book, Coming Apart: The State of White America, is a better explanation of why you don't see more backs in elite units. Although this book deals only with white populations (to head off the racism charges of his earlier works), this same principles apply to the black community - and probably to a much greater extent. That is, a lack of ingenuity, commitment to marriage, honesty, AND RELIGION subvert social cohesion. This creates 2 classes of people and you can guess which class elite units draw from for manpower.
Something tells me that many of our paleo-libertarian colleagues on this forum will conveniently omit this most recent work from their Summer reading list.
As a former Marine water survival instructor (yes, it's an MOS; 8563, and the attrition rate to graduate the instructor's class is usually over 80%), I saw a lot of problems with: complete lack of swimming growing up whether it be family or simply cultural and honestly, quite a lot of black guys cannot float. It used to be that the lowest swim qualification (CWS4) involved a "dead man's float" for a few minutes in the deep end. One black Marine I was training saw the demonstration, tried it, plummeted to 12' (the bottom of the deep end), and literally looked up at me, and threw his arms up as to say "now what." On the reverse side of things; Gunny Waldron (a black Marine) was one of my instructor trainers for the instructor's course and dude was scary good in the water. I believe it all comes back to culture (black culture and family is something Lyndon Johnson handily destroyed with his "Great Society). Raise a black child up swimming and you'll have a good swimmer.
This is speaking from the experience of swim qualifying literally thousands of Marines every year. Many of those serving in other branches have no idea how seriously Marines take combat water survival.
Lane, I know you consider yourself a better, smarter person than everyone else here, but seriously, the sneering and typecasting is quite juvenile and shows that outside of General Discussion, you don't know **** all about libertarians. Do what I did and try taking a step back from the squabbling. Try using M4C for technical discussion. It's far less negative and very refreshing.
QuietShootr
02-27-12, 08:18
It's a cultural issue, not a racial one, not that "race" is a scientifically measurable concept. Americans are pretty well ethnically mixed anyhow. Blacks here have over 1/4 of their genetic material borrowed from whites and native americans. Whites in the south have nearly that much black and native american DNA too.
If blacks are dumb, why do recent black immigrants and their children attain university degrees at rates higher than asians?
Chinese and Koreans are pretty well regarded in the US, but go over to Japan and it's an entirely different story.
You'll hear in the news that "poor" people in the USA don't live as long as "rich people"... except for hispanics, who smoke a lot less than most people. In fact they found that booze and smokes makes for a pretty level playing field. When you adjust for having a single mother raise you, whites and blacks have nearly the same rates of legal and emotional problems, poverty, etc.
I believe in badass deathdealing seal teams as much as any one, but I doubt they've ever been hard up for recruits, kind of a waste of money IMHO. It's kind of odd that a country with tactical nuclear weapons feels the need to get down in the mud as frequently as we do with disagreeable people who usually don't even have an air force, much less nuclear deterrent. Someone is getting paid with my money and it ain't me, it also ain't you. Maybe hitting the camps with airbursts back in '01 was viewed by some as too quick and economical compared with an endless stream of fiat currency for "nation building", it's kind of obvious both parties boarded the gravy train a while ago.
Wow. You really don't know much about anything, do you?
As to your first point: If race were entirely a social construct, with no basis in biology, there would be no differences in how different races metabolize drugs. Here's a hint, since I work in that field - there are a good number of drugs that have different pharmacokinetics in different races of people. That means...wait for it... They're biologically different. You can argue how MUCH, if you want to, but to say that race is a purely social construct is absolute bullshit, and among scientists not influenced by political considerations, there is nothing more that needs to be said.
As for the rest of your "points"... wow. Public school is a mother****er when it comes to instilling the ability to think critically. I can't undo 15+ years of damage in this thread, so I'm not even going to try. Suffice it to say, just like your first point, you are so unbelievably lost you couldn't even catch a bus back to Cluetown from where you are. You'll have to walk to the last station yourself before anyone will be able to pick you up and help you.
DeltaSierra
02-27-12, 08:38
Wow. You really don't know much about anything, do you?
As to your first point: If race were entirely a social construct, with no basis in biology, there would be no differences in how different races metabolize drugs. Here's a hint, since I work in that field - there are a good number of drugs that have different pharmacokinetics in different races of people. That means...wait for it... They're biologically different. You can argue how MUCH, if you want to, but to say that race is a purely social construct is absolute bullshit, and among scientists not influenced by political considerations, there is nothing more that needs to be said.
As for the rest of your "points"... wow. Public school is a mother****er when it comes to instilling the ability to think critically. I can't undo 15+ years of damage in this thread, so I'm not even going to try. Suffice it to say, just like your first point, you are so unbelievably lost you couldn't even catch a bus back to Cluetown from where you are. You'll have to walk to the last station yourself before anyone will be able to pick you up and help you.
Ah, thank you....
Now I don't have to spend the time to try and argue his points...er...whatever...
Bill Bryant
02-27-12, 10:26
I remember when the Chicago Symphony was accused of not representing Chicago's population diversity, of being too white and European and Asian.
Their answer? We put a screen between the auditioners and the judges. We put a padded walkway out to center stage so the judges can't tell if it's a woman's or a man's shoes walking from back stage. Every auditioner goes through the whole process as a number.
The judges find out if the winners are black, white, purple, male, female, alien from outer space after winning numbers are referenced back to audition entry forms.
Uh, we're going to pick the best musicians and couldn't care less about size, shape, color, race, species, or planet of origin.
QuietShootr
02-27-12, 10:34
I remember when the Chicago Symphony was accused of not representing Chicago's population diversity, of being too white and European and Asian.
Their answer? We put a screen between the auditioners and the judges. We put a padded walkway out to center stage so the judges can't tell if it's a woman's or a man's shoes walking from back stage. Every auditioner goes through the whole process as a number.
The judges find out if the winners are black, white, purple, male, female, alien from outer space after winning numbers are referenced back to audition entry forms.
Uh, we're going to pick the best musicians and couldn't care less what size, shape, color, race, species, or planet they come from.
And that's pretty much the system as it exists now. If that means there are like six black guys in the entire SEAL community, speaking as an outsider I don't give a shit. I already have to deal with Affirmative Action hires in every other facet of life where they have the potential to kill somebody (Want a cardiologist cracking your chest who got into med school with a 20% lower score on his MCAT? None for me, thanks) so how about we just leave this ONE critical thing where there is absolutely NO margin for error to the best qualified people to do it, instead of making a picture that makes the pantheon of liberal thought-controllers wet in their panties.
I bet whatever the math or physics equivalent of a SEAL Team is, at Sandia or Oak Ridge, probably looks like the kitchen staff at #1 Wok. Who gives a rat's ass?? I want the smartest mother****er I can get building our next generation of weapons, and I don't CARE if there isn't a single white guy on the team. Why can't blacks have the same attitude?
Heavy Metal
02-27-12, 10:58
My roomie in college and best man at my wedding is black, and cannot swim to save his life. He's actually a Combat Arms O-6 now, and passed his drown-proofing by bouncing along the bottom of the pool while frantically dog paddling in between.
I was just an ignorant Iowa farm kid when we met and he swore to me up and down that "black people cannot swim." He's not the last black dude I've met who has made this assertion.
I think part is mental/cultural and part is anyone Black and fit enough to try out for something like the SEALs tend to have insanely low body fat. That does not help a person 1) Float or 2) Stay warm.
I tried to teach a Black Friend to swim senior year in high school. Remember, this guy was a country boy just like me and not some city slicker! That was almost a disaster, thank goodness for a nearby float. He finally learned to swim when he got older and a bit more boyant. I am convinced there is a genetic component in addition to cultural.
White Men can't jump and Black Men can't swim, at least not as well as the other on average. I think muscle density and body fat are the reasons for both. If you come from the frozen nordlands, a little extra fat is a genetic advantage, come from near the equator, a liability.
The darker pignmentation on a Black Person helps prevent the body from making too much vitamin D at low lattitudes. We are somewhat adapted to the realms of our ancestors, that is just a physical fact.
If you are African American and reading this, I strongly recommend you take Vitamin D suppliments if you live anywhere but Hawaii or South Florida and even then, it would not hurt. Hell, I take it myself! D is a cheap, cheap Vitamin.
At least get your D levels checked next time you have blood drawn, research is showing evidence a lack of D can contribute greatly to major diseases and partially may explain the higher incidents of certain diseases amongst African Americans.
I already have to deal with Affirmative Action hires in every other facet of life where they have the potential to kill somebody (Want a cardiologist cracking your chest who got into med school with a 20% lower score on his MCAT? None for me, thanks) so how about we just leave this ONE critical thing where there is absolutely NO margin for error to the best qualified people to do it, instead of making a picture that makes the pantheon of liberal thought-controllers wet in their panties.
The same thing applies to air traffic controllers and many other very critical, high stress professions where sometimes the best man for the job doesn't get hired due to his lack of melanin, this is a fact and can't be refuted.
Not to pile on to the black dudes can't swim thing but in my water qual and survival stuff in the Navy we had about 8 black dudes who were PT studs out of the water. Once we were pool side they all turned into panicky little school girls and acted like jumping into a pool of water was the equivalent of jumping out of a C-130 into a lake of fire without a parachute. I've never seen so much flailing and faces of pure agony and terror as I did on water days.
All that being said I worked with quite a few black dudes who were nothing but top notch sailors and kicked ass in their professions but we still made fun of them for not being able to swim. :)
As a former Marine water survival instructor (yes, it's an MOS; 8563, and the attrition rate to graduate the instructor's class is usually over 80%), I saw a lot of problems with: complete lack of swimming growing up whether it be family or simply cultural and honestly, quite a lot of black guys cannot float. It used to be that the lowest swim qualification (CWS4) involved a "dead man's float" for a few minutes in the deep end. One black Marine I was training saw the demonstration, tried it, plummeted to 12' (the bottom of the deep end), and literally looked up at me, and threw his arms up as to say "now what." On the reverse side of things; Gunny Waldron (a black Marine) was one of my instructor trainers for the instructor's course and dude was scary good in the water. I believe it all comes back to culture (black culture and family is something Lyndon Johnson handily destroyed with his "Great Society). Raise a black child up swimming and you'll have a good swimmer.
This is speaking from the experience of swim qualifying literally thousands of Marines every year. Many of those serving in other branches have no idea how seriously Marines take combat water survival.
Lane, I know you consider yourself a better, smarter person than everyone else here, but seriously, the sneering and typecasting is quite juvenile and shows that outside of General Discussion, you don't know **** all about libertarians. Do what I did and try taking a step back from the squabbling. Try using M4C for technical discussion. It's far less negative and very refreshing.
Little:
If you take the time to read this thread you will see that we are arguing same point (primarily culture with a little genetics). The reference to Paleo-libertarianism was due to none other than Rick Santorum referencing Murray's book in last week's debate. It was not a jab at the ideology, just that I have a hard time seeing you and Santorum in the same book club ;)
BTW, Thank you for your resume and the advice.
I find it hilarious that we're supposed to "celebrate diversity", but only when it supports liberal pre-conceived notions that everyone can do everything equally well. As soon as the very diversity we're supposed to celebrate forms a pattern, the nattering naybobs are aghast and want to "fix" the results. :rolleyes:
I could care less what "color" these men are. If they have an American Flag on their shoulder, the Trident on their chest, and they are face shooting Tango's...I'm good. :)
MW
QuietShootr
02-27-12, 12:02
I could care less what "color" these men are. If they have an American Flag on their shoulder, the Trident on their chest, and they are face shooting Tango's...I'm good. :)
MW
Ex****ingactly.
Which goes back to the ****ed up reason we're having this conversation in the first place.
If this goes through, I should start an organization to picket the NBA to let more 5'7" 180# white guys in. It's just not fair, I play basketball just as good as anyone else, and it's institutionalized racism that keeps me out of the NBA.
CarlosDJackal
02-27-12, 12:07
(1) In the military the only colors that should matter are: Red, White and Blue!! In certain circumstances I'll accept Green.
(2) I submit that based on race alone, the percentage of those in Spec Ops reflect the percentage of those who VOLUNTEERED for the Combat Arms and the military in general.
(3) I also submit that anyone who did not grow up swimming, hunting or hiking are less likely to be decent swimmers, shooters and road marchers.
(4) **** the NAACP and the ACLU along with the aryan brotherhood, latin kings, the kkk, the black panthers, the nation of islam, any other domestic criminal/terrorist group and those who voted for the current potus because of his skin color, and anyone else who takes their stand based on skin color.
If they don't like the fact that "their homeboys" aren't able to meet the standards that are in place because they were raced a certain way they are welcome to move to Syria or some other place away from our Military. JM2CW.
Reagans Rascals
02-27-12, 12:10
I'm more than sure that if you compared the population demographics of the nation with that of the SEAL community... they would be mirror images....
how can you expect to have equal parts of races, when those races do not make up equal parts of the national population?
if African Americans make up 15% (arbitrary number) of the US population... then I'm sure they would roughly make up 15% of the SEAL population... however the latter only consists of less than 3000 people... therefore of course those numbers will be very low.
If whites are the majority.... it is not hard to determine that the job will be primarily white.
IF RACE DOESN'T MATTER... WHY IS IT CONTINUOUSLY BROUGHT UP?
QuietShootr
02-27-12, 12:19
I'm more than sure that if you compared the population demographics of the nation with that of the SEAL community... they would be mirror images....
And you would be more than totally, embarrassingly wrong.
thopkins22
02-27-12, 12:31
I remember in Bowden's "Black Hawk Down" he asked why there weren't more minorities in SOF type groups and most responding believed it was the swimming requirements. That would seem to be a big part of SEAL life, or at least what the tv shows me.
It's not a race issue, I'd wager that it's a city issue. Generally speaking those that live in metropolitan areas white/black/asian/whatever, are not prone to being strong swimmers.
Yeah we as a whole don't swim to well. I'm a Black man and I can swim well enough to enjoy the pool for a little while. Can't stay in the water for too long though because I sink like a rock.....can't float at all.
Rome is burning and I am taking time out of my day to be snarky.
:sarcastic:
Did the Bell Curve not tell you why the children of recent African immigrants are more educated than Asians in this country?
Did Japan only get the defective Koreans and Chinese?
If there are "racial" differences, why are things like achievement and longevity effectively equalized when adjusted for simple factors like smoking, drinking and the marital status of the parents?
Can you even biologically define race in a manner that reliably predicts... anything?
Any two tribes of African chimps have more genetic variation than in the whole human race. What most people call race, doesn't exist.
As a former Marine water survival instructor (yes, it's an MOS; 8563, and the attrition rate to graduate the instructor's class is usually over 80%), I saw a lot of problems with: complete lack of swimming growing up whether it be family or simply cultural and honestly, quite a lot of black guys cannot float. It used to be that the lowest swim qualification (CWS4) involved a "dead man's float" for a few minutes in the deep end. One black Marine I was training saw the demonstration, tried it, plummeted to 12' (the bottom of the deep end), and literally looked up at me, and threw his arms up as to say "now what." On the reverse side of things; Gunny Waldron (a black Marine) was one of my instructor trainers for the instructor's course and dude was scary good in the water. I believe it all comes back to culture (black culture and family is something Lyndon Johnson handily destroyed with his "Great Society). Raise a black child up swimming and you'll have a good swimmer.
This is speaking from the experience of swim qualifying literally thousands of Marines every year. Many of those serving in other branches have no idea how seriously Marines take combat water survival.
This is what I've suspected with regards to swimming, and it probably pertains to other fields as well (like those I noted). The blacks we had on the boat and as far as one can judge a recruit, the six dudes I knew in boot, were squared away and did their jobs to the best of their ability and exceeded the standard. Exactly what you'd expect from a serviceman.
While 6 blacks in my boot division all needed remedial swim lessons (and IIRC, most were city kids), the rescue swimmer on my boat who came from rural Louisiana swam like he was born to do it. He could swim dragging a "victim" as fast as most of us could freestyle. For S&Gs a bunch of us set up a wager to see if he could pass the PRT 450-meter dragging another sailor. He did. Scored a good high too. He was the best cook to top it off. I suspect his Afro-cajun upbringing had no small bearing on his abilities.
I'm going to have to read Murray's new book. I suspect it will answer most of my questions, because the "bell curve" reasoning has never quite gelled for me.
Yeah we as a whole don't swim to well. I'm a Black man and I can swim well enough to enjoy the pool for a little while. Can't stay in the water for too long though because I sink like a rock.....can't float at all.
Swimming and floating are more based on technique than physique.
I am fat white guy, and I will sink right to the bottom if I just sit in the water. My wife is 100% Korean blood and so our son is an Asian-Caucasian mix and skinny as pole and no extra body fat at all. He sinks right to the bottom if he does not do anything about it. But (age 9 now) he is in the local swim club on their junior swim team and is competing in local meets.
You learn how to arch your back or other techniques that will help you float.
While the muscular no body fat dudes have a little harder time, they can learn proper technique and float with the rest of us.
Wahoo95 -- I am not picking on you. Just seemed the appropriate one to reply to to say this bit.
I would guess it is mostly cultural and/or environment that certain groups have a harder time in the water.
Here is an article about a BLACK Olympic medalist in swimming:
http://newsone.com/nation/black-history-month/game-changers/jeffmays/olympic-medalist-tries-to-prevent-black-kids-from-drowning/
And hats off to any one of any color, racial or ethnic background, be they black, white, yellow, red, or any other mix who volunteers for SOF work!
--
I'm going to have to read Murray's new book. I suspect it will answer most of my questions, because the "bell curve" reasoning has never quite gelled for me.
My biggest problem with Bell Curve was the assumption of immutable IQ. This is a theory that I have a had time accepting. There are a few other assumptions that don't fully accept, but I do think the book is a great conversation piece.
I've started to skim Murray's new book, but I wanted to finish Pat Buchannan's Suicide of a Superpower before I got to deep into something new. Both look to be good reads and touch on similar themes. FYI, Pat's book got him fired from MSLSD, so I mainly bought it to see what all of the hype was about. I was pleasantly surprised at how well written it was, and I struggle to find major points of disagreement.
Yeah we as a whole don't swim to well. I'm a Black man and I can swim well enough to enjoy the pool for a little while. Can't stay in the water for too long though because I sink like a rock.....can't float at all.
Here's a story you may find funny.
In the area of the state I live in it was always said that black folks couldn't swim. I never understood it. Still don't.
Friend of mine works for the wildlife department in the fisheries department. They hired a new guy, black man in his 30's.
My bud was instructed to show him around the area which included the local lakes. On the first day they were to go to the lake, it was agreed that my friend would pick him up about an hour before dawn.
My bud pulls into his driveway and there in the headlights he sat......with a big ass orange life jacket already on! Not a drop of water in sight.
My bud asks him...What's with the life jacket?
He says.....I've never been in a boat and I can't swim a lick. Scared to death of the water.
I understand he was always a good sport about the hell he caught for that.
QuietShootr
02-28-12, 07:04
:sarcastic:
Did the Bell Curve not tell you why the children of recent African immigrants are more educated than Asians in this country?
Source please.
Did Japan only get the defective Koreans and Chinese?
If there are "racial" differences, why are things like achievement and longevity effectively equalized when adjusted for simple factors like smoking, drinking and the marital status of the parents?
Source please. Good luck with this one.
Can you even biologically define race in a manner that reliably predicts... anything?
Yep.
According to the 2000 edition of a popular physical anthropology textbook, forensic anthropologists are overwhelmingly in support of the idea of the basic biological reality of human races.[101] Forensic physical anthropologist and professor George W. Gill has said that the idea that race is only skin deep "is simply not true, as any experienced forensic anthropologist will affirm" and "Many morphological features tend to follow geographic boundaries coinciding often with climatic zones. This is not surprising since the selective forces of climate are probably the primary forces of nature that have shaped human races with regard not only to skin color and hair form but also the underlying bony structures of the nose, cheekbones, etc. (For example, more prominent noses humidify air better.)" While he can see good arguments for both sides, the complete denial of the opposing evidence "seems to stem largely from socio-political motivation and not science at all". He also states that many biological anthropologists see races as real yet "not one introductory textbook of physical anthropology even presents that perspective as a possibility. In a case as flagrant as this, we are not dealing with science but rather with blatant, politically motivated censorship".
from a non-scientific source, but one that you might be able to understand. http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/evolution/does-race-exist.html#gill
Any two tribes of African chimps have more genetic variation than in the whole human race. What most people call race, doesn't exist.
Source please.
Your brain has been so mutilated by the modern education system I can't really help you. You'll have to want to help yourself. Here's a good place to start.
Burchard EG, Ziv E, Coyle N, Gomez SL, Tang H, Karter AJ, Mountain JL, Perez-Stable EJ, Sheppard D, Risch N. The importance of race and ethnic background in biomedical research and clinical practice. N Engl J Med. 2003 Mar 20;348(12):1170-5.
I say again, (for the last time, because if you don't get it you're being deliberately obtuse) if race were a social construct it wouldn't be a significant variable in biomedical research...and unfortunately for both you and most American leftists, that's demonstrably not true. You can go ahead and ignore it just like everyone who doesn't have to factor those variables into their work, but that doesn't mean it's not true.
Please believe me when I say I am not trying to belittle you. I know you probably won't do it, but this is a way to start realizing what has been done to you. Read it, and I don't care if you hate her or what she stands for. Just read it.
http://www.scribd.com/doc/51894820/Ayn-Rand-The-Comprachicos
For everyone else: THIS is why we're ****ed. The liberal fallacy that every human = any other human is destroying Western civilization, and their long-term indoctrination is working. As Orwell accurately predicted half a century ago, their desired end state is one where un-orthodox thought is not possible because there is no vocabulary for it. Looks to me like we're almost there.
CarlosDJackal
02-28-12, 12:03
I'm more than sure that if you compared the population demographics of the nation with that of the SEAL community... they would be mirror images...
Not necessarily. They belong to the Elite Ranks for a reason. If what you say was true, then the Navy would be made up of mostly SEALs.
When a certain demographic or culture puts professional athletes, artists, wrappers, drug dealers and gang-bangers on a pedestal over Spec Ops Warriors; you can pretty much guarantee that there will not be as many of that group's sons who will join the SEALs (and other Elite Units).
"Your brain has been so mutilated by the modern education system I can't really help you" + "and unfortunately for both you and most American leftists" + "I know you probably won't do it, but this is a way to start realizing what has been done to you" = "Please believe me when I say I am not trying to belittle you" Humm....
When a certain demographic or culture puts professional athletes, artists, wrappers, drug dealers and gang-bangers on a pedestal over Spec Ops Warriors; you can pretty much guarantee that there will not be as many of that group's sons who will join the SEALs (and other Elite Units).
Now that is a very interesting way of putting it...I like this - thanks.
sniperfrog
02-28-12, 14:42
I'm more than sure that if you compared the population demographics of the nation with that of the SEAL community... they would be mirror images....
how can you expect to have equal parts of races, when those races do not make up equal parts of the national population?
if African Americans make up 15% (arbitrary number) of the US population... then I'm sure they would roughly make up 15% of the SEAL population... however the latter only consists of less than 3000 people... therefore of course those numbers will be very low.
If whites are the majority.... it is not hard to determine that the job will be primarily white.
IF RACE DOESN'T MATTER... WHY IS IT CONTINUOUSLY BROUGHT UP?
This is not true. Back in the 90's there were about 1300-1400 active duty SEALs. There was only 6 or 7 black guys on the east coast Teams. I'm not sure about the west coast but I know there wasn't 200+ (15%).
Very few black guys try out for the Teams. My class had 3 and that was the first class to have any in awhile. The ones that I knew were good operators. One of the guys in my platoon was one of the fastest swimmers at the Team.
Reagans Rascals
02-28-12, 15:02
This is not true. Back in the 90's there were about 1300-1400 active duty SEALs. There was only 6 or 7 black guys on the east coast Teams. I'm not sure about the west coast but I know there wasn't 200+ (15%).
Very few black guys try out for the Teams. My class had 3 and that was the first class to have any in awhile. The ones that I knew were good operators. One of the guys in my platoon was one of the fastest swimmers at the Team.
I was using 15% as just an illustrative figure, an arbitrary number not representing the real figures. I used it to illustrate a point, in that if whites make up the majority in the US population... then its not so far fetched that they would also be the majority in this circumstance.... considering there's just plain more of them trying out...
As a member of another selective group (intellectually rather than physically) I can say that trying to increase candidates in order to diversify can lead to some funny results.
My incoming PHD class was Perfectly Diverse.
My graduating class was 100% Male and 50/50 White/Asian. What happened? There was this nasty little "Qualifier" test. THose who graded it had no idea what your affirmitive action criteria was. Guess where we lost our diversity. This despite some minority candidates being given "Extra" training and chances to past.
WHen you go and find inferior candidates to match skin color or gender--you will do nothing to the end result. The key question is how to increase the pool of qualified applicants. Last I checked, the color of your skin has no bearing on your ability to shoot, swim, add or subtract. And in the meantime you will cast suspicion on those who do meet the grade but are members of minorites because people begin to assume, their presence is due to race/gender rather than skill. Its a double whammy. Plus how cool is it to be a science geek?
---
On top of this is the swimming--I float right now--in fact most people naturally float unless they have very low body fat. Just becuase you can't get your noggin out of the water, doesn't mean you dont float. I couldn't do a tenth of the crap I could do when I didn't float. As a competetive swimmer. The ability to float (aka your displacement in water--not the ability to stay on top of it with minimal action) has nothing to do with the ability to swim. Any active duty SEAL, if put in a pool will sink (if they do nothing). It physics. (I'm guessing there are no fat SEALs). I bet they all can swim though. Its an excuse. Kinda like White men can't jump. Watch the Olympics though. Look at the high jump. Uh-oh!
Littlelebowski
02-28-12, 16:25
Little:
If you take the time to read this thread you will see that we are arguing same point (primarily culture with a little genetics). The reference to Paleo-libertarianism was due to none other than Rick Santorum referencing Murray's book in last week's debate. It was not a jab at the ideology, just that I have a hard time seeing you and Santorum in the same book club ;)
BTW, Thank you for your resume and the advice.
Solid copy, like I said, I'm staying out of GD so I had no idea about that tard's comments.
I understand you were getting a jab in about me mentioning my experience but I think running combat water survival training for thousands of Marines is very relevant to this discussion. Don't assume it's the same as Army water survival training; it's far more involved and also mandatory for all Marines.
As to your first point: If race were entirely a social construct, with no basis in biology, there would be no differences in how different races metabolize drugs. Here's a hint, since I work in that field - there are a good number of drugs that have different pharmacokinetics in different races of people. That means...wait for it... They're biologically different. You can argue how MUCH, if you want to, but to say that race is a purely social construct is absolute bullshit, and among scientists not influenced by political considerations, there is nothing more that needs to be said.
The 'pure' definition of race may not be a 'social construct', but the 'idea' of racism, based on 'race,' is that the foundations are that people's genetic and ethnic biology makes them inferior, not make them different. It is the media and liberal education system that warped the definitions, and loose logic making assumptions. As I work in the medical field and see it first hand, I fully agree with your points that people's ethnic and genetic biology are in fact different. I prefer to use the semantics 'ethnicity' instead of 'race' because I do not want to be called racist if I make distinctions.
When I was a corpsman I was at Camp Lejeune taking the first class test, and another corpsman, a black dude who happened to play water polo ans swim competitively in college, was more akin to Jesus Christ in that he walked ON the water moreso than actually swam IN the water. We had that conversation, his thought was that black people just don't have as much access to pools and swimming lessons growing up. He never saw anything as insidious as it being a difference in race or biology.
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