View Full Version : BCM + Troy Question
texshooter
02-27-12, 11:17
Hey guys,
I’m relatively new around here and had a question about an in progress build. I’m looking at the BCM middy upper (14.5”) and want to install a Troy Alpha Battle Rail (11” or 13”), and while searching the products BCM has available on their website, I’m not sure which upper assembly I need to order. I don’t want to have to cut down the FSB and they don’t seem to have an upper assembly with a low profile gas block. Could someone please point me in the right direction? :confused:
I sent an email out to BCM but I’m not sure how long it generally takes them to get back to people.
Here is essentially what I’m looking for, however I want the new Troy alpha rail:
http://www.bravocompanyusa.com/ProductDetails.asp?ProductCode=BCM-URG-MID-14+VTACTRX11&CartID=1
Thanks in advance,
Tex
I may be wrong about this, but I believe that you simply have to go with what they offer. My personal opinion is to buy the regular upper. cut down the FSB and install the Troy rail
I may be wrong about this, but I believe that you simply have to go with what they offer. My personal opinion is to buy the regular upper. cut down the FSB and install the Troy rail
It's more of a PITA than getting a low profile gas block, but I think this is probably your only/best option
SomeOtherGuy
02-27-12, 14:33
In my experience BCM replies to email within about a day. Somehow they ship orders faster than that (gotta have priorities, and no argument with theirs).
BCM will do minor things to an in-stock upper readily - for example I had one shipped with a different flash hider installed and the A2 in the box, and that was a no-charge, no delay service. I expect that the changes you're looking for would be outside of that minor category and probably into the category of BCM doesn't do custom builds.
You could always use a clamping gas block if you don't want to cut down the original FSB. Obviously not ideal from a reliability perspective, but there are some small quality options such as the VLTOR and Daniel Defense, and they can be fairly secure.
Alternatively, several advertisers here are quite capable of doing the modifications you're looking for.
Why the strong preference for the Alpha rail over the original TRX Extreme? I'll bet that BCM switches to building with the Alpha rail instead at some point in time, but I have absolutely no idea when.
texshooter
02-27-12, 17:13
Thank you for your replies.
BCM did contact me back and they said that they couldnt change the rail on the upper. Which I didnt expect they would, but my main question was which upper assembly to purchase if I wanted to do it myself. They again responded timely and indicated that they only made upper assemblies with the FSB and did not offer one with a low profile gas block without a rail.
As to why the Alpha rail over the TRX-E, its really just a matter of personal preference. Also, I feel that mounted rail segments would likely be more secure with less available space to move in the circular openings rather than the long ovular ones. I'm sure they'll eventually offer the upper with the alpha rail, but I am just not that patient. So ill probably just order the upper with the TRX-E for the time being.
Do you have the skills to build one yourself from scratch? The last upper I wanted to build didn't exist in BCM's stock configs, so I decided to put it together myself. With the right tools and some patience, it's really quite easy to do.
I already asked, and was told via email last week... or was it the week before?... that BCM is looking into the Alpha rail, but has no immediate plans for offering an upper with it installed.
I'm not all that crazy about the VTAC myself either, so am thinking of just going with a tried and true LaRue 12.0.
texshooter
02-27-12, 22:10
With the right tools and some patience, it's really quite easy to do.
I have neither the tools nor the patience.
I'm sure I could do it with the right tools and time, however, I would prefer to have it done professionally.
ActiveShooter
02-28-12, 07:06
It's quite easy to do, I'm talking less than 5 minutes if you have a lo-pro/shaved gas block or 20 minutes if you have to shave the gas block (tops).
However, I cannot recommend a Troy rail. I like a lot of troy gear but in my experience their rails suck. I've seen 4 regular TRX rails pull the heli-coils through at the rear of the handguard holding the handguard tight. I also recently worked on a TRX extreme that was actually bent, with the front BUIS adjusted all the way down the shots were still 6" low.
Wormydog1724
02-28-12, 07:19
But the upper you want with a rail you don't want, DD Lite. Take it off and sell it. Buy the Troy alpha and tools with the money from the dd lite. Install it for have it installed. You'd probably not be out very much if any money. That's basically what it did. 12" DD Lite to 13" TRX-E. I'd take it somewhere to have it swapped because BCM uses some sort of magic to keep their gas blocks on. I destroyed mine getting it off but had a few extras laying around I used.
polymorpheous
02-28-12, 08:18
I feel that mounted rail segments would likely be more secure with less available space to move in the circular openings rather than the long ovular ones.
You need to check out the rail before you make this assumption.
It is way off base.
The rail section can't move or rotate once installed correctly.
You will see what I mean once the upper is in your hands.
If you take Wormydog's suggestions, you could buy the upper with the Centurion Arms C4 12 rail. It uses the low profile gas block and the stock barrel nut. That means switching the C4 with the Troy Alpha means no gunsmithing.
polymorpheous
02-28-12, 08:22
I've seen 4 regular TRX rails pull the heli-coils through at the rear of the handguard holding the handguard tight.
It says in the instructions not to over tighten.
I also recently worked on a TRX extreme that was actually bent, with the front BUIS adjusted all the way down the shots were still 6" low.
This rail was more than likely installed incorrectly.
I use a carry handle to line everything up before I tighten everything down when installing rails.
However, I cannot recommend a Troy rail.
Given that you're blaming an inanimate object for the actions of the halfwits that installed them incorrectly....I'm sure it makes more sense in your head than it does in print.
texshooter
04-01-12, 19:36
Just an update here. I ended up getting a 14.5" mid length upper without rail, ordering a VLTOR low profile gas block and the 13" Troy alpha rail. I just dropped it off to a gunsmith I have used in the past to get it all assembled for me. He hasnt previously installed a Troy rail and said it may require him to do some fitting to get it to fit over the nut. Not sure why that would be needed but I generally defer to gunsmiths' opinions once the parts are in their hands.
I'll post an update and hopefully pictures once I get it back next week.
texshooter
04-01-12, 19:38
You need to check out the rail before you make this assumption.
It is way off base.
The rail section can't move or rotate once installed correctly.
You will see what I mean once the upper is in your hands.
Sorry about that. I confused the TRX-E with the VTAC model.
Wormydog1724
04-01-12, 21:25
There's no "fitting" needed.
lethal dose
04-01-12, 21:45
Sounds like you're about to drop it off to an incompetent gunsmith who may very well botch it up. If that gas block uses set screws to attach it, it will be nowhere near as secure as an fsb. You should send it off to be pinned. Honestly, shaving the fsb should be reconsidered. If you don't want to do it yourself, send it to Robb at VA Arms... He charges $50 and that includes rail installation (last I checked).
texshooter
04-02-12, 00:05
Hmmm. I'll make a phone call tomorrow morning. I'll tell him to just cut down the existing FSB if you guys think it's a better option. Also see what he meant by "fitting".
From what I understood, he pulled out a barrel nut he had in a drawer to check how the rail would fit over it and the rail wouldn't slide over it.
Probably hasn't loosened the clamp screws and just trying to shove it in there.
As Wormydog1724 said, there is no fitting to it.
Stop him unless you want to pay him to learn by screwing up your stuff.
ETA link (https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=102556) to recent thread that might be of interest regarding Troy Alpha
Giving AR projects to "gunsmiths" never seems to turn out well.
you could have just bought the standard upper and had ADCO chop your FSB for $38, and I'm sure they'd install the handguard of your choosing for a few dollars more.
www.adcofirearms.com
save that link. They may well be able to un-**** whatever your local guy thinks he's "fitting".
:blink:
As a rule there are many gunsmiths who know jack shit about AR's. This is why we see some nasty ARbortions on the net.
The others are attributed to amateurs trying to save money. In any case I have installed two of them and had no issues. Now, I didn't use a Vltor gas block (I cut and shaved an FSB) so it may in fact need some trimming to fit. But, it shouldn't be a major deal.
Just an update here. I ended up getting a 14.5" mid length upper without rail, ordering a VLTOR low profile gas block and the 13" Troy alpha rail. I just dropped it off to a gunsmith I have used in the past to get it all assembled for me. He hasnt previously installed a Troy rail and said it may require him to do some fitting to get it to fit over the nut. Not sure why that would be needed but I generally defer to gunsmiths' opinions once the parts are in their hands.
I'll post an update and hopefully pictures once I get it back next week.
As a rule there are many gunsmiths who know jack shit about AR's. This is why we see some nasty ARbortions on the net.
The others are attributed to amateurs trying to save money. In any case I have installed two of them and had no issues. Now, I didn't use a Vltor gas block (I cut and shaved an FSB) so it may in fact need some trimming to fit. But, it shouldn't be a major deal.
That's cause a lot of people see 'gunsmith', and think it's some magic one size fits all category. You get someone who primarily works on shotguns or pistols, and toss and AR his way, you're paying him to experiment on your firearm.
I wouldn't even think of going to a smith until I'd done my research on line and found out exactly what I wanted to get done, and even then, before I tried it, I'd watch a few video's to see the level of complication involved, then decide whether I had the aptitude/tools to do it.
And I'd not take an AR to a gunsmith who had never/rarely worked on them.
There's a ton of videos on how to change forearms and such on line.
For the price of the gunsmith you could own all the parts needed, and that is including to cut down the gas block. It's not impossible if someone pays attention.
All of this, of course, comes with the caveat one must know their mechanical aptitude, and be aware of their own limitations.
I didn't build my upper, for example, for the simple fact that the cost was very similar to my buying them, (not counting tools), and I knew that I was ordering from a quality company.
If I decide to go to a low profile, then I'll address that issue.
I have one gunsmith in town that I'd trust with it, because he actually builds AR's on the side. Sucker is making a killing on the idiot brigade around here. He's assembling kits and charging them out the ass for it.
texshooter
04-02-12, 09:58
Well I wouldn't consider him an amateur gunsmith by any means. He's had a lot of experience and I've seen many of his builds. He's built ARs for a few friends and he does great machine an hand metal work (1911s). He has a full blown shop in his garage which is more than any gunshop in the area has. I'm sure it's more of an issue with the Troy rail needing to be slid on sideways and then turned counterclockwise (thanks for the link).
Nevertheless, I will contact him and make sure he understands.
he does great machine an hand metal work (1911s). He has a full blown shop in his garage which is more than any gunshop in the area has.
all of this would scare the shit out of me, and I personally would never give AR work to someone like this.
Guys like that think that everything needs grinding, shaving, bashing, hammering... and all those tools mean to me is that he has that much more at his disposal to **** my shit up.
texshooter
04-15-12, 17:49
I should have listened... Long story short: the upper receiver is cracked. I'm kicking myself for this one. He's replacing it but couldn't find a BCM or Noveske stripped upper. Considering upgrading to a VLTOR MUR on his dime. Any other recommendations that will match my noveske lower?
How the heck did he manage to crack your upper?
I am curious too..
Only thing I can think is stupid amounts of torque when working on the barrel nut.
How the heck did he manage to crack your upper?
With a machine shop full of tools, and an apparent lack of knowledge on a particular item, I'm sure it would be pretty damn easy to crack an upper.
SW-Shooter
04-15-12, 19:59
Care to out this screw up of a gunsmith? I live in Texas and I use ADCO for anything I can't or won't do myself. You learned a hard lesson, a gunsmith and an AR builder are two different entities, and I hope he does the right thing and compensates you. I wouldn't let him build sh1t for me though, not after that massive screw up.
Please advise us how this upper was cracked. I have a few guesses but I still need to know.
I should have listened... Long story short: the upper receiver is cracked. I'm kicking myself for this one. He's replacing it but couldn't find a BCM or Noveske stripped upper. Considering upgrading to a VLTOR MUR on his dime. Any other recommendations that will match my noveske lower?
I'd be willing to bet that the guy didn't know the muzzle device was pinned and tried to loosen it with the upper clamped down. Wrong on so many counts.
lethal dose
04-15-12, 21:53
Hate to say: "I told you so." Sorry about your luck, man.
lethal dose
04-15-12, 21:56
To add... I'd be worried about the barrel, too.
To add... I'd be worried about the barrel, too.
Me too.
texshooter
04-15-12, 22:31
Well I'm going to go over there probably on tuesday or wednesday to take a look and find out what happened. My understanding from our phone convo was that he over torqued the barrel when reinstalling it (dont ask me why he took it off, i have no idea). He had just finished pinning the FH i think. The birdcage on the barrel before wasnt pinned.
I dont want to post names on here, sorry. He said he couldnt find another BCM upper in stock but ordered a few others to see how they fit with my lower (dont worry, didnt leave that with him).
I'll definitely be sending it off to ADCO next time.
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