View Full Version : Civilian looking for ammo carrying system
Hello all,
I am looking for a low profile ammo carrying system suggestions. I am going to use the suggestion from a sticky on this page to help lay out the criteria.
1. I'm looking for a:
- Ammo carrying system which holds 4 AR 15 magazines (PMAGS), possibly room to expand with a small medical kit. Possibly a chest rig or a "war belt"
2. I'm a civvie/military/LE/etc: Civilian
3. The primary usage of this item is for Carbine courses and general range practice.
4. I'd also like to use it for SHTF. As outlandish as this may sound if god forbid something happened where I needed to conceal this under a jacket I could.
5. I need it to fit/carry 4 AR 15 magazines and if possible a small med kit if possible.
6. I need it for this weapon:
- AR 15 usually using 30 round PMAGS
7. I prefer it to be made out of:
- As durable a material as they can be made out of. I can break any thing.
8. My budget for this item is Preferably around $200
9. I'm looking for it in these colors:
- I live in Northern Va. I am a civilian. I will not be using this for duty use but would prefer green or coyote. I would prefer to avoid any camo patterns if possible. I do not own any camo gear or other tactical gear. I am a civilian and won't wear something I have not earned the right to wear.
10. I care/don't care if it looks 'tactical': I would prefer it to look as low profile as possible without sacrificing durability and comfort.
11. I need/don't need it to be low profile/concealed etc: I would prefer it be low profile.
12. I have already looked:
- BCM 03 MSF: This is the number 1 contender so far. I like the low profile layout but do not like how high it rides. I do not know if that can be adjusted. This looks like a good ready to use piece.
- BFG 10 Speed: I like how simple this system is but I do not like that it does not appear to have as much support as the BCM MSF or other chest rigs. This one is also not expandable at all to carry a small med kit.
- Tactical Tailor MAV: This is nice because it is what you make of it. Unfortunately due to my lack of experience with chest rigs I wouldn't know where to begin to set this up properly.
13. If it's a sizing/fit question, provide your height, weight, build, waist size, inseam length - whatever sizing information is relevant to your question.
- In terms of sizing I am 6'1 225LBS. I wear a size XL shirt and jacket if that helps at all. I have a bit of a spare tire around the belly area after this last year I am working on getting rid of. I don't know how this is going to effect the fit of a chest rig.
14. If it's a comfort question, state the conditions you want to use the garment under - dry/humid/wet, hot/cold.
- This will be used in Va so the weather can range from freezing cold to hot and muggy. Most of my shooting is done in doors but I imagine most of the classes I will end up attending in the coming years will be held outdoors. I will normally just wear a cotton tshirt underneath this stuff or a jacket if the weather requires it. Normally I wear jeans and a glock 19 IWB at 4:30. When wearing the rig I will probably wear the pistol holster OWB at 3:00 or figure out something else.
15. Any other relevant information about your personal preference, usage etc that will help others narrow down their answers to your question.
- I am a civilian who has no idea where to start when it comes to this stuff so any advice is appreciated. From the resources I have read on this forum and learning through lightfighter I have narrowed it down to the top three choices I mentioned above but if you guys have any advice I would appreciate it. My aim is to have a simple and durable ammo carrying system. I am open to any ideas.
Doc Safari
02-28-12, 17:08
I like the USGI Enhanced Tactical Load Bearing Vest (NSN 8415-01-296-8878). I bought one off e-bay for less than $50.00. The web belt is separate, but it wasn't too expensive either. This seems to fit your criteria.
The good news is: I got it to adjust to my size without having to replace the laces. I can also zip up my winter coat over it, something I can't do with most other gear. I wear a size 40-42 jeans, depending on style, and I usually wear 2XL anything else. I'm not obese, but I do have more gut than I did when I was in my twenties (I'm in my forties now). I'm over six feet tall.
The bad news is: it's heavy and bulky. I want to carry a handgun and canteen on it, but I'm considering not doing so.
NeoNeanderthal
02-28-12, 17:34
For 200 dollars you should be able to build a good rig. One thing I might have missed. Do you want your pouches to be open top, shock cord top, flaps??? This is important.
Personally, i would search for "Gear load out" there is a huge thread where people post pictures of their gear load out and you can pick up some great ideas there. Many will post a description of it, (components, and sometimes cost). For ME personally i have a plate carrier, but if looking at a chest rig i would go for a molle one, and put HSGI Taco's on it which is how i have my plate carrier set up. Very versatile, you can add/subtract/move pouches and add whatever blowout kit you want.
Especially if its your first rig, chances are you'll want to move things around until you get it just right. Guys that have been running and gunning with kit on for a while can buy purpose made rigs, because they know exactly what they want, and where they want it. It doesn't look like your in that category (i'm not ether).
BFG 10 speed pouches dont do it for me because i can not, for the life of me, put mags back into the pouches with one hand. This type of thing has to be found out the hard way. If you can find ANY sort of rigs at a store near you or that a friend has, i would go and try them on. Its worth the drive. Even if it only helps you decide what you DONT want. Practice putting mags in and out, drop your rifle and see where it goes, (does it hang up ext?).
Also, cant find the link- but user RobS has a webpage called Tactical Yellow visor. He wrote a whole article on "load carriage" equipment. Very interesting and informational to watch his whole progression and see what he ended up with.
I would prefer open topped magazine pouches. The MAV would be nice for the modularity of the system. I'll look at the loadout thread stickied in here some more and get some ideas.
Failure2Stop
02-28-12, 18:13
I am a huge proponent of armor in conjunction with a load-carriage system. A good setup does 3 things:
Helps you make holes (feeds the gun)
Stops holes (armor)
Fixes holes (emergency medical equipment)
If it doesn't do those three things for me, I really have to question my need in strapping it on for an incident that requires me (or might require me) to expend the ammo load-out.
Failure2Stop,
If one was to purchase a system made for carrying armor would it have to have plates installed in order to carry the ammo loadout or could you start off without the plates ?
I thought about this option a little bit. An older firearms instructor I took a couple of classes with at a local range used to wear soft armor during instruction. I can see the advantage of that when training but never gave it much serious thought because I don't do this for a living.
What kind of set up do you use ?
It's not recommended to use a PC without armor but I will admit I have used my PIG PC with great success minus the plates. I did it in the beginning in order to practice loading my AR & pistol and just move around. Once armor is added things like shouldering your weapon become effected but training solves all problems... If your gonna buy a PC you do need to train with the armor in and become as proficient with it as you are without it.
Failure2Stop
02-28-12, 22:09
If one was to purchase a system made for carrying armor would it have to have plates installed in order to carry the ammo loadout or could you start off without the plates ?
It is better to use plates in it than not to as you will have sag with a full load without plates to stabilize the platform.
It's still do-able though.
Setups I have used:
Eagle PC
SPC
Tyr PC
SKD PIG
They all have their benefits, and unless you are going to wear one for several hours a day professionally they all work pretty much the same.
militarymoron
02-28-12, 22:37
the OSOE micro chest rig holds 4 M4 mags and has a pocket that can hold a small IFAK:
http://originalsoegear.com/microrig.html
I like the idea of the micro rig but I wonder how it rides on the body. Any idea if the mags can be stored without the flap over them ?
I really like the hsgi taco mag pouches alot. Maybe I might put together a small rig with 4 of those and a good harness for starters.
While I agree with F2S that if you're going into a fight and planning on wearing load carriage on your torso, having armor in it makes sense, there are times as a non-LE civilian where I want only the load carriage, or only the armor. Because of that, this is the system I use (https://sites.google.com/site/tacticalyellowvisor/reviews---gear/mayflower-armer-us-grunt-gear-load-carriage).
militarymoron
02-29-12, 08:40
I like the idea of the micro rig but I wonder how it rides on the body. Any idea if the mags can be stored without the flap over them ?
how it rides depends on how you adjust the straps. you can wear it high or low. you can tuck the flap inside the pouch and have the mags exposed. note that they will not have any retention.
Failure2Stop
02-29-12, 08:50
While I agree with F2S that if you're going into a fight and planning on wearing load carriage on your torso, having armor in it makes sense, there are times as a non-LE civilian where I want only the load carriage, or only the armor. Because of that, this is the system I use (https://sites.google.com/site/tacticalyellowvisor/reviews---gear/mayflower-armer-us-grunt-gear-load-carriage).
I also see the value in using the rig simply to bring more ammo to the line during training, and if your most expected/most probable use of the carbine is without putting anything on the Battle-Bra makes sense.
My above comment is more oriented to the concept of using the setup in a fight or anticipating a fight.
JackFanToM
02-29-12, 08:55
I would go to skd and get the eagle all Molle chest rig and 4 x hsgi tacos. Under $200, very durable, lightweight, customizable and somewhat concealable.
og556, is something like a Mini Sneaky Bag, TT Active Shooter Bag, or one of the Hawkepak options out of the question? As a civilian I've thought about how I would deploy armor and some load carriage and I keep circling back to concealable armor and an external bag of some sort.
Eagles 4x mag chest rig is the most low profile chest rig I've seen and very affordable if they still make it.
Hawkepacks makes some really affordable and well made man purse style rigs that are low profile
I like F2s's "holes" approach alot, but dont personally run armour as it increases the bulk to the point of not being plausibly concealable.
If you want low profile any number of civilian type messenger bags or sporting gear can be pressed into purpose.
If you want functionality something a bit more martial is in order, and starting with a simple chest rig is a good place, you can work up from there.
Personally I like the flaps as they keep crap out of the mag, keeps stuff from snagging and catching and dont take up much more time during reload. Thats just based on crawling thru the brush and dirt and water that gave me that requirement. YMMV
Gear is personal and based on your experience. the more you train the better of an idea you have what you like or need. A lot of guys settle on the chest rig tho IME
I thought the bag idea was cool, until I tried it. Several times. With multiple bags. All they did was flop around, dig into my neck with almost nothing in them...
Turned out to be a total non-starter for me.
NeoNeanderthal
02-29-12, 10:41
To answer the question about using a plate carrier without armor,
I bought a SKD PIG when i had the money, and strapped taco's to it. This was my "chest rig" for quite a while. I didn't have money for plates but thought i would eventually, so this was a system i could grow into as funds allowed. Eventually i found a deal on plates and popped them in.
You could go this route, buy like a TAG banshee or something economical and then add your preferred pouches. If it lacks the support without plates you could always make fake plates out of a 15 dollar sheet of kydex. I havent done it, but i've worked with kydex and all you would need is a knife and a heat gun to get the curve similar to a 10x12 sapi cut. You can also buy trainer plates. but that is adding more money that could just go towards real plates.
My pig was fine without plates- plenty stiff for a full load out. (thats what she said)
loganp0916
02-29-12, 11:20
To answer the question about using a plate carrier without armor,
I bought a SKD PIG when i had the money, and strapped taco's to it. This was my "chest rig" for quite a while. I didn't have money for plates but thought i would eventually, so this was a system i could grow into as funds allowed. Eventually i found a deal on plates and popped them in.
You could go this route, buy like a TAG banshee or something economical and then add your preferred pouches. If it lacks the support without plates you could always make fake plates out of a 15 dollar sheet of kydex. I havent done it, but i've worked with kydex and all you would need is a knife and a heat gun to get the curve similar to a 10x12 sapi cut. You can also buy trainer plates. but that is adding more money that could just go towards real plates.
My pig was fine without plates- plenty stiff for a full load out. (thats what she said)
Do you not like your PIG? Or are you only not recommending it because it is like $330 retail?
Michael2007
02-29-12, 13:55
I have the SPEC OPS MOUT rig that I bought from their website for $20.00 when it was on sale. Holds 4 PMAGS or 8 USGI Mags and is laced with molle. It's pretty low profile when you've only got 4 mags in it.
I thought the bag idea was cool, until I tried it. Several times. With multiple bags. All they did was flop around, dig into my neck with almost nothing in them...
Turned out to be a total non-starter for me.
TANSTAAFL! People should probably understand that going in. But a messenger bag will probably go unnoticed where a plate carrier with 4 mags and a medkit is probably questionable if your goal is to be low profile.
TANSTAAFL! People should probably understand that going in. But a messenger bag will probably go unnoticed where a plate carrier with 4 mags and a medkit is probably questionable if your goal is to be low profile.
Without getting into what kind of fantasyland the non-professional user thinks they're getting themselves into that requires some secret-squirrel appearance...
That's fine, but go use one for a couple of days and see how it works. The bags are like 99% of the other shit we see people posting pictures of on here that never leaves their bedroom except for pictures and they think it makes them prepared.
For me, the bag was a total non-starter. It's low-profile? Great. What that gets me with a RIFLE STRAPPED TO MY CHEST I have no idea, but at least I tried it in the sterile environment of the range and found it didn't even work there, let alone when I'd really need it.
I guess everyone wants to be Jack Bauer. His must be filled with helium.
Without getting into what kind of fantasyland the non-professional user thinks they're getting themselves into that requires some secret-squirrel appearance...
No worries. It's the same fantasy land where civilians feel compelled to train with carbines instead of almost exclusively with the pistol... that 99.9% of us will never use off the square range anyway. At some point people will smarten up and realize that 90% of the stuff that's posted even here is mental masturbation.
To Rob's comments on the shoulder bags.
I've trained with both Sneaky bags offerings as well as a couple of Hawkepaks offerings and even a plain old gas mask bag. all were loaded with mags and extra gear and run over a shooting courses of a mile or more used as a sole source of resupply and gear carriage. Shooting positions from prone supported to standing off hand were used.
Rob makes some observations on how they tend to flop about, and this is a very real thing to be managed and expected. An unsecured bag will just flop around and the possibility of dropping stuff is real but manageable. Securing it effectively while moving is important and some work must be done to develop a system of use. For instance when going prone, disconnecting from the bag and using it as a rest or placing it beside to to avoid dumping the contents while getting your NPOA is useful.
Sneaky bags had a waist strap and a leg strap that held the bag relatively securely, and hawkepaks has either or. I feel the waist strap is the most useful as it can bear some weight while keeping flopping to a minimum. Bicycle messenger bags have a neat shoulder and waist strap that is very secure but can be slow retrieving things from compared to sneaky or hawkepaks.
Shoulder Bags are far from the ideal fighting gear but CAN be pressed into reasonable service as gear or as a grab and go bag. One should train with their bag to manage the deficiencies before depending on it tho. It does offer some benefits that chest rigs do not... mainly profile and compactness, ability to be a dump pouch as well as a supply pack not just an ammo carrying device. as Rob mentioned tho,a rifle slung over the shoulder would seem to be your real profile issue. I have a freind who has gone into some VERY high profile areas with a concealed rifle and mags in a bag and proceeded to walk around with impunity in daylight in front of hundreds of people, MANY LEO's and feds with no problems (and completely legally) with the right gear.
If you want absolute fighting efficiency and the ideal setup, a plate carrier rig with plates and med kit and multiple double layer mag pouches and hydration bladder, dump pouch and chest mounted pistol offers some real benefits in a gun fight. If you want absolute low profile civilian liveable daily carry gear, a shoulder bag or a bicycle messenger bag with some custom sewing might be your thing. Likely you will find something in the middle.
You might take the approach of writing down some possible scenarios or events in which you might be required to use the gear. then rate each one 1-10 based on likelihood. Order those from most likely to least likely then choose gear that most efficiently services the most likely scenarios yet still is useful in other situations, then find solutions to address and deficiencies. some problems can be solved with tactic changes before gear changes. You might just find that fighting a roving gun battle with an armored foe is not very likely but a trip down the street to investigate some suspicious breaking noises at an absent neighbors house is very likely.
I'm sorry I cant tell you what will work the best for you, all I can do is point out a few options and thier strengths an weaknesses. you will go thru several configurations before settling on something tho, and you will probably end up with multiple setups. ;)
HTH
At some point people will smarten up and realize that 90% of the stuff that's posted even here is mental masturbation.
This.
Guns are like only 10% of what I do to prepare for bad things. there are SO many more cool things to play with and learn. :smile:
Truth.
I don't do this for a living so that is why I never really looked into it before.
I do enjoy shooting and I believe training with the rifle will be fun. Theres nothing wrong with having fun with it as long as your not dumping all your cash into it or taking away from people who really need this stuff.
The only reason this idea even came up was because most classes require some kind of ammo carrying system.
NeoNeanderthal
02-29-12, 21:06
Do you not like your PIG? Or are you only not recommending it because it is like $330 retail?
Love my pig. But only plate carrier i've ever owned so i've got nothing to compare it to, except a buddy's Eagle and another's Condor...... needless to say I like my SKD pig better (the eagle wasn't bad).
I only didn't recommend it because the op had a 200 dollar budget. Would feel like a dick telling him he should buy a 330 dollar PC (and might not ever get plates) and then drop 120-160 dollars in taco pouches. Resulting in a rig that is over 2 times his budget.
It was worth every penny to me, and I live below the poverty line. However, my girlfriend says my "Priorities are all ****ed up." So who knows.
loganp0916
02-29-12, 21:08
That's what I assumed since I've only heard good things about the pig.
Truth.
I don't do this for a living so that is why I never really looked into it before.
I do enjoy shooting and I believe training with the rifle will be fun. Theres nothing wrong with having fun with it as long as your not dumping all your cash into it or taking away from people who really need this stuff.
The only reason this idea even came up was because most classes require some kind of ammo carrying system.
It is an area that you MUST have sorted out tho, so concentrating on it for a while is a critical thing. You should be proficient in the use of arms and have the associated gear fully sorted out.
NeoNeanderthal
02-29-12, 21:14
It's the same fantasy land where civilians feel compelled to train with carbines instead of almost exclusively with the pistol... that 99.9% of us will never use off the square range anyway.
No offense but i never understood this line of thinking. 99.9% of civilians that train firearms for self defense wont ever use one (regardless of what type). 99.9% of people who install smoke alarms will never be saved by them.
I've chosen my rifle as my home defense tool. I'm not a statistician, but i feel like i am just as likely to fight off a home invader with it as i am to defend myself abroad with my cc handgun.
Not trying to call you out.
As suggested above, the OSOE Micro Rig or the HSGI Micro rig are the two I'd look at seriously for just this application. Storage for enough magazines, and included room for FAK items, as well as some budget overhead to purchase a basic blowout kit (Nitrile Gloves, Chemlight, Hemostatic Gauze, OLAES Type Dressing, Compressed Gauze, NPA, Chest Seal).
These rigs are tremendously overbuilt, and will last for any use. If you don't want it to stand out a ton, get it in a color like Foliage Green, or Tan - something solid, but still colored like nature.
A chest rig like this will still fit over any practical armor system, and can work in conjunction with it (See DownRangeGear Blog for ideas if that comes up down the road), or running a system like the Mayflower APC Armor Carrier and just adapt your existing rig to that.
For now, just having a viable ammunition carriage system and more importantly that IFAK on hand is going to work. Get training on both ends of the equation (making and patching holes), and you'll already be way ahead.
I am beginning to understand that.
I have been shooting pistols for years now. I have good holsters, mag holders, multiple magazines, decent sights and soon a weapon light and holster system that is light compatible for two platforms.
I have taken classes offered at local ranges and private instructors over the years. Nothing high speed just focusing on the basics. I practice drawing from the holster at the range from concealment as I carry concealed.
Now I am interested in this aspect of learning to fight with a rifle and having a good time too. I just hate to come here and come off as some poser who wants to look like some thing he is not because that is not what I am trying to do.
I respect every one who has served in the military and law enforcement who put their lives on the line for us. I will not disrespect them by wearing gear just to look like them. Its important for me to clearly communicate that with you guys.
I understand the reality of my needs and the fact that I will likely never use this rifle in a gun fight or any thing of that nature. I hope to god I never have to but I love shooting and plan on attending some classes so that is why I am here to figure out what works.
I like the idea of the micro rig but I wonder how it rides on the body. Any idea if the mags can be stored without the flap over them ?
The stacked micro rig will hold 4 mags without flaps.
http://www.originalsoegear.com/stacked.html
I am beginning to understand that.
I have been shooting pistols for years now. I have good holsters, mag holders, multiple magazines, decent sights and soon a weapon light and holster system that is light compatible for two platforms.
I have taken classes offered at local ranges and private instructors over the years. Nothing high speed just focusing on the basics. I practice drawing from the holster at the range from concealment as I carry concealed.
Now I am interested in this aspect of learning to fight with a rifle and having a good time too. I just hate to come here and come off as some poser who wants to look like some thing he is not because that is not what I am trying to do.
I respect every one who has served in the military and law enforcement who put their lives on the line for us. I will not disrespect them by wearing gear just to look like them. Its important for me to clearly communicate that with you guys.
I understand the reality of my needs and the fact that I will likely never use this rifle in a gun fight or any thing of that nature. I hope to god I never have to but I love shooting and plan on attending some classes so that is why I am here to figure out what works.
**** the haters. Train and shoot for your reasons. Not theirs.
I'm glad to see someone else looking to better themselves by seeking quality training and equipment. It's a small percentage of our community that bothers to do so. I'm not sure why some feel the need to discourage it.
Mike
In terms of the IFAK kit do you guys have any good recommendations on a list of things to include ? I want to start researching this subject while I'm figuring out this system.
I have basically zero knowledge of what to do besides apply pressure to wounds.
The worst injuries I have had in my life or seen are lacerations to the scalp, broken bones in the arms, fingers, stress fractures.
The only thing I know how to do if someone around me was shot is to apply pressure and try to stop the bleeding with whatever I have. I have read that a tourniquet is something I should learn how to apply and that quick clot can be used to stop wounds that wont stop bleeding.
I know I'm completely out of my realm so any advice would be appreciated. I just don't want to sink all this cash into something I don't know how to use.
No offense but i never understood this line of thinking. 99.9% of civilians that train firearms for self defense wont ever use one (regardless of what type). 99.9% of people who install smoke alarms will never be saved by them.
I've chosen my rifle as my home defense tool. I'm not a statistician, but i feel like i am just as likely to fight off a home invader with it as i am to defend myself abroad with my cc handgun.
Not trying to call you out.
I am absolutely not discouraging anyone from getting quality training or gear. I was responding to Rob's post which came off a little bit condescending to me but my feelings weren't hurt. :cool:
Mikey,
The OSOE stacked micro rig will fit the bill. Are there any other harnesses I should consider or should I go with the OSOE one ?
I think I will start with this and a harness. Eventually as I progress I will add a plate carrier to this set up.
What I like about this set-up is that it will accommodate 4 magazines and a first aid kit in a simple package out of the box. It appears to be low profile and durable.
I hate to keep bringing up questions but after looking at some of the stickies above I noticed that alot of people use a "war belt" in conjunction to their plate carriers/chest rigs. Is there some kind of compatibility system or incompatibilities with certain chest rigs and war belts I should be aware of ?
Are there any other harnesses I should consider or should I go with the OSOE one ?
I would recommend the slim padded H harness with the micro rig. It's the most comfortable way to run one. Me personally, I run mine like a satchel.
In terms of the IFAK kit do you guys have any good recommendations on a list of things to include ? I want to start researching this subject while I'm figuring out this system.
I have basically zero knowledge of what to do besides apply pressure to wounds.
The worst injuries I have had in my life or seen are lacerations to the scalp, broken bones in the arms, fingers, stress fractures.
The only thing I know how to do if someone around me was shot is to apply pressure and try to stop the bleeding with whatever I have. I have read that a tourniquet is something I should learn how to apply and that quick clot can be used to stop wounds that wont stop bleeding.
Here's a decent blow out kit. Affordable too.
http://www.tacticalresponsegear.com/catalog/product_info.php?products_id=2417
And you'll want some training to go with it.
http://gomez-training.com/course-description/handling-traumatic-injuries-hti-125/
http://www.tacticalresponse.com/course.php?courseID=36
What I like about this set-up is that it will accommodate 4 magazines and a first aid kit in a simple package out of the box. It appears to be low profile and durable.
Lifetime warranty, you damage it in anyway and John will fix it or replace it forever.
If we're past spitting out made-up percentages (which we are, BTW)...
http://www.skdtac.com/Eagle-Chest-Rig-Universal-SKD-p/eag.567.htm
http://www.skdtac.com/ATS-Low-Profile-Medical-Insert-p/ats.111.htm
http://www.austereprovisions.com/ProductDetails.asp?ProductCode=IC3K-1
Optional: For greater comfort and ease of don/doff (subjective, up to the user), an H-harness makes sense. For another $25: http://www.skdtac.com/ATS-Modular-Padded-H-Harness-p/1sk.125.htm
That's about $150 total (I'm including likely delivery), is simple and durable, comes from reputable vendors/distributors.
I've lost count of the hours I've used this setup in the last 3 years, but it includes instructing and receiving instruction under any weather condition one'd care to mention. I've not felt any need to completely shift to anything else, but have modified what I have using a seam-ripper to get rid of stuff I don't need, shock cord to snug up stuff I do, and a soldering iron to make holes for the shock cord; a like-to-have, not a have-to-have, personal choice.
Lots of good rigs out there (the Mayflower UW or the Blue Force Gear 10-Speed, for instance...), and the idea that they're only for those who've sworn some sort of oath to go in harm's way is trite. One's other choices are loading up your belt to hell and gone, or slinging a ballistic-nylon pendelum around your torso; the idea that this is automatically a better option than perhaps appearing as a poser is equally trite.
Worry about the learning to shoot the carbine part, first. One is only a poser if one is wrapped in cordura and can't hold their mud. If you wear a banana hammock and a rainbow wig, and can shoot better at the end of the class than you did when you got there, you're not a poser....you're interesting.
The point about seeking training for the med gear is a cogent one. One can depend upon whomever it is running the firearms class to know what to do with it (bears research; it's a GOOD idea to ask the instructor/host about med contingencies if it's not otherwise mentioned), but what if you're alone or with folks you KNOW are untrained in its use....? Getting a class on the components of a basic IFAK is a helluva good idea, under any circumstances.
Failure2Stop
03-01-12, 10:33
Well said.
If you wear a banana hammock and a rainbow wig, and can shoot better at the end of the class than you did when you got there, you're not a poser....you're interesting.
For those of you that don't know, J is an interesting guy :D
I am a huge proponent of armor in conjunction with a load-carriage system. A good setup does 3 things:
Helps you make holes (feeds the gun)
Stops holes (armor)
Fixes holes (emergency medical equipment)
If it doesn't do those three things for me, I really have to question my need in strapping it on for an incident that requires me (or might require me) to expend the ammo load-out.
I've been watching this thread progress and keep coming back to F2S's advice. Never gave much thought to armor or a PC as a citizen, but this is a solid argument to reconsider that position.
For the OP who is just starting out with carbine training, the only thing I'd like to add is to focus on the training itself and not get hung up on gear. It's an evolution of figuring out what works for you and what doesn't. I've watched guys fight their gear and their own level of fitness more than taking notes. Get to the line with a basic system for carrying the mag load required for the course you're taking and soak up the teaching points like a sponge. You'll get a free peek at all kinds of gear throughout the course.
My own evolution started with a duty style belt with mag pouches (they flopped around too much), then Raven Concealment mag holders (love 'em, but can't put these on quickly) and now the BFG Ten Speed chest rig. For low profile and durability, the Ten Speed really shines. If there ever was a situation (agreed this is highly unlikely) where I would need to grab my rifle, this system is easy to thrown on quickly and hides well under a light jacket. It fills the low profile/quick grab role well, but it's not going to "stop holes" so that's the next stop on my learning curve.
NeoNeanderthal
03-01-12, 14:26
In terms of the IFAK kit do you guys have any good recommendations on a list of things to include ? I want to start researching this subject while I'm figuring out this system.
I have basically zero knowledge of what to do besides apply pressure to wounds.
In depth medical training is useful but really is not needed to utilize quick clot and a tourniquet. Once you get into stabbing people in the lungs with a needle, (or other ways of creating airways) this is where it gets dicey.
I am by no means qualified to give anyone medical advice (Certified Wilderness First Responder, basic first aid, cpr) but this guy is...http://m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=95595
In summary Jason Falla's kit recommendations..
"Pouch: SORD IFAK Small
(1) QC-G
(2) Mod Bandage
(3) 28 Naso
(4) 14ga Catheter
(5) Surgical Scalpel
(6) Halo Chest Seal
(7) Gloves
External items:
(1) CAT TQ in the armor
(2) Trauma Sheers in the armor"
TacMedic556
03-04-12, 15:14
All of the above plus I always have an Israeli bandage and an Olaes.
TacMedic556
03-04-12, 23:55
Check out ESSTAC. Stu is a great guy, easy to work with and can either make you a custom rig or point you towards a good fit. All his gear is top notch.
SuperiorDG
03-05-12, 16:41
I am absolutely not discouraging anyone from getting quality training or gear. I was responding to Rob's post which came off a little bit condescending to me but my feelings weren't hurt. :cool:
Your not the first to see Rob's comments as condescending. :sarcastic:
SuperiorDG
03-05-12, 16:42
In depth medical training is useful but really is not needed to utilize quick clot and a tourniquet. Once you get into stabbing people in the lungs with a needle, (or other ways of creating airways) this is where it gets dicey.
I am by no means qualified to give anyone medical advice (Certified Wilderness First Responder, basic first aid, cpr) but this guy is...http://m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=95595
In summary Jason Falla's kit recommendations..
"Pouch: SORD IFAK Small
(1) QC-G
(2) Mod Bandage
(3) 28 Naso
(4) 14ga Catheter
(5) Surgical Scalpel
(6) Halo Chest Seal
(7) Gloves
External items:
(1) CAT TQ in the armor
(2) Trauma Sheers in the armor"
I think it is good to carry a med kit regardless if you know how to use it. Someone that does could save your life with it.
curlyburns5
03-06-12, 17:13
To the OP, I would really like an update on how your gear works out
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