View Full Version : US Troops possibly going to trial over Koran burning
This is absolutely unf...ing believbable. After reading this article I'm almost totally speechless. Read it for yourselves. Here's the link.
Mods, if I have wrongly used this link please correct it for me so that everyone can read the article.
http://www.wnd.com/2012/02/afghans-quran-burning-soldiers-to-face-trial/
I read about this too.. This is something I literally may picket about. It makes me absolutely sick.
Not to mention another source stated its within practice to burn a Koran if it had been marked in...
NATO has agreed to have the soldiers who burned copies of the Quran face trial....
See there is the problem right there in red.
“NATO officials promised to meet Afghan nation’s demand of bringing to justice, through an open trial, those responsible for the incident and it was agreed that the perpetrators of the crime be brought to justice as soon as possible,” the statement said.
-------------------------
So I guess we are going to hang our US Soldiers for burning a couple copies of a trash book?
I might just buy a few copies on Amazon today and use the pages to fire-start my new Chiminea I bought.
:lol:
FromMyColdDeadHand
02-29-12, 14:23
Part of the three-page letter to Karzai said, “I extend to you and the Afghan people my sincere apologies. We will take the appropriate steps to avoid any recurrence, to include holding accountable those responsible.”
Three page letter? WTF, and I don't mean Win The Future.
I assume they would be charged with some kind of conduct charge, not some sharia law citation. The article is interesting, but a little misleading and over the top.
Did some 9/11 remains just get dumped in a landfil? How many court cases over that?
I always thought Quran burning was good extremist indicator. Light up a Quran and pop any one in the head who attacks you. I was outraged when Sinead O'conner ripped up a picture of the Pope. I just stopped listening to her music.
LowSpeed_HighDrag
02-29-12, 14:48
NATO officials could mean US Generals. Either way, these dumb troops are gonna be hung out to dry so we can appease our muslim masters. The most powerful military in the history of the universe bows to a bunch of peasants.
Doc Safari
02-29-12, 15:18
I am literally almost sick at my stomach over this.
It's bad enough to fight and die in the sandbox. It's worse to do so for a bunch of panty waist Beta-male pussies who get all weepy eyed that some enemy soldiers' baby feelings might have been hurt.
Shouldn't we instead be hunting down and killing the TERRORISTS who killed US troops simply because they burned a book that advocates violence to non Muslims?
This is like putting Patton on trial because he pissed in the Rhine river and that offended Germans and made them fight harder.
It really is as simple as this:
If you burn a Koran Afghan Muslims will hate us and want to kill us.
If you DON'T burn a Koran Afghan Muslims will hate us and want to kill us.
I am continuously astounded that those in charge of the war don't seem to understand this simple fact. The reality is the only thing that WON'T make Afghan Muslims will hate us and want to kill us is IF we all converted to Islam and even then there are no guarantees.
This whole "putting US soldiers on trial for offending Muslims" really only accomplishes one thing, it makes us seem weak to our enemies and that encourages them to continuing fighting.
I'm not surprised. Isn't that sad? The worst part, this bullshit has become the norm. We can't even reasonably claim outrage any more, because this is the game we play now. this is what we signed up for, letting people impose extreme political correctness on us.
The fact we're still in NATO disgusts me. The fact we aren't manipulating our position as the most powerful nation on earth disgusts me. The fact people get butt-hurt over this disgusts me.
To quote someone better than me:
"**** I HATE THE ENEMY!!!
I can not believe the voluntary ankle-grab the planet is continually posturing in for these stone age parasites."
Another thing that really pisses me off about this whole issue is that in the initial reports state the reason the books were burned was that they were written in by Taliban/Afghan prisoners at the prison at Bagram and those messages were being passed on to others outside of the prison. According to Islam writing in the Quran would make the book impure and the only way to purify it would be to burn the book. So the military followed Islamic law and burned the books acccording to their laws. However, the administration has shown no outrage at what is going on over there and has not put forth the true reasoning behind the burnings. Instead they have thrown our military under the bus and promised to hold those responsible accountable. Obama apologizes and shows no spine what so ever. Typical
montanadave
02-29-12, 16:46
Gimme a break.
This is never gonna happen. It's just another bullshit story from a fundamentalist religious website looking to stoke up some controversy.
Search the intergoogle. This same story is popping up on all the ultra-conservative websites. That should be a clue. When somebody finds one credible source to substantiate the claims in the article, get back to me.
And isn't the actual reason the korans were burned because detainees were using the books to pass messages back and forth? Isn't writing in the koran considering defacing a sacred text? So why isn't that POS Karzai calling for public beheadings of the Afghans scribbling mash notes to each other? Sorry, but it's time to tell these ****ing people to settle their own hash and get the hell out ... yesterday!
ETA: Sorry, watrdawg, for the repeat. I should have been reading instead writing.
Gimme a break.
This is never gonna happen. It's just another bullshit story from a fundamentalist religious website looking to stoke up some controversy.
Search the intergoogle. This same story is popping up on all the ultra-conservative websites. That should be a clue. When somebody finds one credible source to substantiate the claims in the article, get back to me.
Except for the fact that we've already done this kind of thing many times. Gitmo ring a bell? I know WND is hardly an unbiased source, but it remains plausible in cases like this.
And isn't the actual reason the korans were burned because detainees were using the books to pass messages back and forth? Isn't writing in the koran considering defacing a sacred text? So why isn't that POS Karzai calling for public beheadings of the Afghans scribbling mash notes to each other? Sorry, but it's time to tell these ****ing people to settle their own hash and get the hell out ... yesterday!
ETA: Sorry, watrdawg, for the repeat. I should have been reading instead writing.
Truth has nothing to do with an opportunity to demonize the US so we can start ass kissing those who would kill us if given a chance.
ICANHITHIMMAN
02-29-12, 18:16
Guys what can we do to help support them?
montanadave
02-29-12, 19:32
Guys, this is just silly. Karzai has shown time and time again that he is willing to throw his American and NATO "allies" under the bus to placate the islamists and the Taliban. His grip on power is so tenuous he has no choice but to kowtow to the extremists lest they fry his ass. He's playing both sides of the street and everybody knows it. That's why both sides loathe him and no one trusts him. He's going to tell the Afghan people whatever it takes to buy himself another 24 hours.
As for American serviceman being turned over to an imaginary Afghan national government that can't even control the capital to stand trial for burning a ****ing book, what are you guy's smokin'? I realize a large number of M4C members consider President Obama an incompetent and a fool, but do you truly believe a Commander-in-Chief is going to let these shit-stained neanderthals pass judgment on U.S. soldiers operating in a combat theatre? And in an election year, no less? That's just beyond stupid.
Guys, this is just silly. Karzai has shown time and time again that he is willing to throw his American and NATO "allies" under the bus to placate the islamists and the Taliban. His grip on power is so tenuous he has no choice but to kowtow to the extremists lest they fry his ass. He's playing both sides of the street and everybody knows it. That's why both sides loathe him and no one trusts him. He's going to tell the Afghan people whatever it takes to buy himself another 24 hours.
As for American serviceman being turned over to an imaginary Afghan national government that can't even control the capital to stand trial for burning a ****ing book, what are you guy's smokin'? I realize a large number of M4C members consider President Obama an incompetent and a fool, but do you truly believe a Commander-in-Chief is going to let these shit-stained neanderthals pass judgment on U.S. soldiers operating in a combat theatre? And in an election year, no less? That's just beyond stupid.
You have to be shitting me??? Do you for one second TRULY believe that the "CoC" actually cares about those that he's supposed to "lead"??? Really?
Do you really think he cares much about an "election year"?? By his action in just the last couple months, I think not!
montanadave
02-29-12, 20:11
You have to be shitting me??? Do you for one second TRULY believe that the "CoC" actually cares about those that he's supposed to "lead"??? Really?
Do you really think he cares much about an "election year"?? By his action in just the last couple months, I think not!
Oh, for chrissakes, grow up.
Can we get some confirmation from a site that isn't always full of shit?
That being said, if true it is bullshit.
Moose-Knuckle
02-29-12, 20:28
http://i10.photobucket.com/albums/a144/AKS-74/Mugatu.jpg
ICANHITHIMMAN
02-29-12, 20:31
http://i10.photobucket.com/albums/a144/AKS-74/Mugatu.jpg
Ha thats the best line in the whole move. "What is this a center for ants"
I can't find any credible sources to confirm this. In addition, I can't imagine that Obama would be stupid enough to allow this during an election year. The public outcry would be deafening.
US Soldiers are not going to be handed over to the GIROA to be tried under Shariah law. To believe that is unbelievably stupid. The legitimate Afghan Government doesn't even acknowledge Shariah law. Something called "Hanafi jurisprudence" is the closest thing to it which is codified in Afghan law, but that does not apply here.
They will, however, be punished under the proper mechanisms, as they should be. Is the Afghan response to Quran burning absolutely ****ing ridiculous? Yes. They're a bunch of crazed lunatics. But it's not surprising...and therein lies the offense. To burn Qurans is a massive error in judgement, given that those who ordered it surely had to know what would happen if it ever went public. This error is an inexcusable failure with a direct negative impact on mission accomplishment. You would punish a soldier who fell asleep on guard, wouldn't you? This is no different. You might not like the doctrine of cultural sensitivity...I know I don't. But when you take an oath to obey the orders of the officers appointed over you, you follow their directives. There is no excuse for doing something this stupid.
Oh, for chrissakes, grow up.
Good one...
I'm not sure why I'm even wasting my time, but the way you stated that the "CoC" wouldn't let someone pass judgement on one of our troops just rubbed me the wrong way.
Its happened before, not talking about a foreign gov here, but the current administration has absolutely left many hanging out to dry. Think Matthew McCabe and his Team....no, he didn't get indicted, but I guess punching a terrorist should be grounds for going through that whole bullshit trial right? :rolleyes:
As for American serviceman being turned over to an imaginary Afghan national government that can't even control the capital to stand trial for burning a ****ing book, what are you guy's smokin'?
OOOPS. I missed that important distinction. I assumed a US military trial.
The_War_Wagon
02-29-12, 22:34
Its happened before, not talking about a foreign gov here, but the current administration has absolutely left many hanging out to dry.
Wasn't Rep. Allen West's career cut short, because he was more concerned about the safety of his men, than playing 'paddy cake' with some dirtball Mohammedan in his custody?
thopkins22
02-29-12, 22:56
US Soldiers are not going to be handed over to the GIROA to be tried under Shariah law. To believe that is unbelievably stupid. The legitimate Afghan Government doesn't even acknowledge Shariah law. Something called "Hanafi jurisprudence" is the closest thing to it which is codified in Afghan law, but that does not apply here.
They will, however, be punished under the proper mechanisms, as they should be. Is the Afghan response to Quran burning absolutely ****ing ridiculous? Yes. They're a bunch of crazed lunatics. But it's not surprising...and therein lies the offense. To burn Qurans is a massive error in judgement, given that those who ordered it surely had to know what would happen if it ever went public. This error is an inexcusable failure with a direct negative impact on mission accomplishment. You would punish a soldier who fell asleep on guard, wouldn't you? This is no different. You might not like the doctrine of cultural sensitivity...I know I don't. But when you take an oath to obey the orders of the officers appointed over you, you follow their directives. There is no excuse for doing something this stupid.
Finally a post in this thread that's reasoned and points out why what they did was in fact not okay.
FromMyColdDeadHand
03-01-12, 00:42
Someone needs to get what is left of the Korans and show how they were written in by the prisoners. When they mobs call for their blood as much as the US guys who burned them, that's when I'll believe their craziness isn't just anti-US sentiment.
US Soldiers are not going to be handed over to the GIROA to be tried under Shariah law. To believe that is unbelievably stupid. The legitimate Afghan Government doesn't even acknowledge Shariah law. Something called "Hanafi jurisprudence" is the closest thing to it which is codified in Afghan law, but that does not apply here.
They will, however, be punished under the proper mechanisms, as they should be. Is the Afghan response to Quran burning absolutely ****ing ridiculous? Yes. They're a bunch of crazed lunatics. But it's not surprising...and therein lies the offense. To burn Qurans is a massive error in judgement, given that those who ordered it surely had to know what would happen if it ever went public. This error is an inexcusable failure with a direct negative impact on mission accomplishment. You would punish a soldier who fell asleep on guard, wouldn't you? This is no different. You might not like the doctrine of cultural sensitivity...I know I don't. But when you take an oath to obey the orders of the officers appointed over you, you follow their directives. There is no excuse for doing something this stupid.
While I accept the inherent logic of your reply, at the end of the day we are going to punish US soldiers for burning a ****ing book in order to placate a people who hate us anyway. And that just isn't gonna ever be acceptable to me.
Finally a post in this thread that's reasoned and points out why what they did was in fact not okay.
That they're in a position of being misused by our "leaders", to the point that they're even in a position to burn the books or be judged regarding that act, is in fact, not okay. :(
As someone who happens to be on the ground and affected by some of the events that transpired, let me say this.
1. NATO/U.S Forces screwed up when they did not immediately explain that the Korans were burned as they were being used by detainees to send messages back and forth.
2. Once those Korans were discovered to have been desecrated by the same animals who would then point fingers at us, it should have been documented and photographed. One would assume that intelligence people would have done so in the even that there was something of importance in them. Then we need to immediately use the media to show and explain exactly why it was done. Although ultimately it wouldn't have mattered considering the population is over 70% illiterate.
2. According to our LN's the Koran can in fact be burned if it is damaged or tattered, but it has to be done with some respect. It also needs to be completely burned, not just bits and pieces. So here is where we went wrong and someone should have used their brain to make sure things were being done properly.
3. Why are we still here? The mission has been accomplished- Al-Qaeda has been disrupted, OBL is dead, the Taliban are gone (for the most part although they are now slowly creeping in) and we have no business trying to rebuild this country. It was ****ed before we got here and it will continue to be after we leave. We are wasting lives and money needlessly and the American people need to tell the politicians to bring us out now.
montanadave
03-01-12, 07:09
As someone who happens to be on the ground and affected by some of the events that transpired, let me say this.
1. NATO/U.S Forces screwed up when they did not immediately explain that the Korans were burned as they were being used by detainees to send messages back and forth.
2. Once those Korans were discovered to have been desecrated by the same animals who would then point fingers at us, it should have been documented and photographed. One would assume that intelligence people would have done so in the even that there was something of importance in them. Then we need to immediately use the media to show and explain exactly why it was done. Although ultimately it wouldn't have mattered considering the population is over 70% illiterate.
2. According to our LN's the Koran can in fact be burned if it is damaged or tattered, but it has to be done with some respect. It also needs to be completely burned, not just bits and pieces. So here is where we went wrong and someone should have used their brain to make sure things were being done properly.
3. Why are we still here? The mission has been accomplished- Al-Qaeda has been disrupted, OBL is dead, the Taliban are gone (for the most part although they are now slowly creeping in) and we have no business trying to rebuild this country. It was ****ed before we got here and it will continue to be after we leave. We are wasting lives and money needlessly and the American people need to tell the politicians to bring us out now.
Well said. I am in agreement with each point you have elucidated.
As someone who happens to be on the ground and affected by some of the events that transpired, let me say this.
1. NATO/U.S Forces screwed up when they did not immediately explain that the Korans were burned as they were being used by detainees to send messages back and forth.
2. Once those Korans were discovered to have been desecrated by the same animals who would then point fingers at us, it should have been documented and photographed. One would assume that intelligence people would have done so in the even that there was something of importance in them. Then we need to immediately use the media to show and explain exactly why it was done. Although ultimately it wouldn't have mattered considering the population is over 70% illiterate.
2. According to our LN's the Koran can in fact be burned if it is damaged or tattered, but it has to be done with some respect. It also needs to be completely burned, not just bits and pieces. So here is where we went wrong and someone should have used their brain to make sure things were being done properly.
3. Why are we still here? The mission has been accomplished- Al-Qaeda has been disrupted, OBL is dead, the Taliban are gone (for the most part although they are now slowly creeping in) and we have no business trying to rebuild this country. It was ****ed before we got here and it will continue to be after we leave. We are wasting lives and money needlessly and the American people need to tell the politicians to bring us out now.
The section that I highlighted is where we lost a very good opportunity to place the Taliban in a very bad situation. We may have been able to turn the riots around on the Tailban.
thopkins22
03-01-12, 09:17
That they're in a position of being misused by our "leaders", to the point that they're even in a position to burn the books or be judged regarding that act, is in fact, not okay. :(
Also correct. ;)
What I don't understand about the whole thing is why anybody knows about it. What happened to discretion and doing something in secret? Did they invite the town to watch?
Also correct. ;)
What I don't understand about the whole thing is why anybody knows about it. What happened to discretion and doing something in secret? Did they invite the town to watch?
I don't know why that should surprise you...everytime the SEALs do something big, the media gets a full report it seems like...opsec and discression doesn't seem to mean anything anymore :rolleyes:
RogerinTPA
03-01-12, 10:21
As someone who happens to be on the ground and affected by some of the events that transpired, let me say this.
1. NATO/U.S Forces screwed up when they did not immediately explain that the Korans were burned as they were being used by detainees to send messages back and forth.
2. Once those Korans were discovered to have been desecrated by the same animals who would then point fingers at us, it should have been documented and photographed. One would assume that intelligence people would have done so in the even that there was something of importance in them. Then we need to immediately use the media to show and explain exactly why it was done. Although ultimately it wouldn't have mattered considering the population is over 70% illiterate.
2. According to our LN's the Koran can in fact be burned if it is damaged or tattered, but it has to be done with some respect. It also needs to be completely burned, not just bits and pieces. So here is where we went wrong and someone should have used their brain to make sure things were being done properly.
3. Why are we still here? The mission has been accomplished- Al-Qaeda has been disrupted, OBL is dead, the Taliban are gone (for the most part although they are now slowly creeping in) and we have no business trying to rebuild this country. It was ****ed before we got here and it will continue to be after we leave. We are wasting lives and money needlessly and the American people need to tell the politicians to bring us out now.
Agreed, whole heartedly. I'm in Bagram where the burnings took place. We had protest outside of ECP1, the local workers got thrown off base, no water for a few days and got a few IDF impacts the first night, but nothing really serious. Most of the serious shit happened at other facilities. The Qurans should have been turned over to a local religious leader(s) for proper disposal or kept in a secured storage area until they could do so. As usual in cases like these, in the eyes of Islamic world opinion, which includes liberals the world over, someone has to be made the "Goat". This is another leadership failure yet again.
Interesting note or side bar is that greater than 70 percent of the people in AFG is illiterate. Besides the passages memorized in the Quran, most couldn't really read or interpret whats in it, or a local news paper for that matter.
Dirk Williams
03-01-12, 10:31
Although it's wrong, why would our soldiers being sacraficed over this bullshit surprise anybody here, happens all the time and has happened historically.
We as a nation have clearly lost our focus and floundered hopelessly in Astan.
Guess well have to consault the Media to see what our nations next move should be.
Time to bring our boys and girls home.
Dirk
crusader377
03-01-12, 11:58
3. Why are we still here? The mission has been accomplished- Al-Qaeda has been disrupted, OBL is dead, the Taliban are gone (for the most part although they are now slowly creeping in) and we have no business trying to rebuild this country. It was ****ed before we got here and it will continue to be after we leave. We are wasting lives and money needlessly and the American people need to tell the politicians to bring us out now.
This is a great point and I wish our policy makers would understand this simple concept.
I think I am going to take my Bible, Qur'an, and Torah out to the range. I am going to line them up and shoot through all three of them at once. I wonder which group will be the most outraged. :shout:
We were attacked as well in Kabul by several hundred pissed off LN's. Right down the street at the MOI two American officers are murdered and today apparently two more Americans were killed.
Agreed, whole heartedly. I'm in Bagram where the burnings took place. We had protest outside of ECP1, the local workers got thrown off base, no water for a few days and got a few IDF impacts the first night, but nothing really serious. Most of the serious shit happened at other facilities. The Qurans should have been turned over to a local religious leader(s) for proper disposal or kept in a secured storage area until they could do so. As usual in cases like these, in the eyes of Islamic world opinion, which includes liberals the world over, someone has to be made the "Goat". This is another leadership failure yet again.
Interesting note or side bar is that greater than 70 percent of the people in AFG is illiterate. Besides the passages memorized in the Quran, most couldn't really read or interpret whats in it, or a local news paper for that matter.
Cagemonkey
03-01-12, 15:02
As someone who happens to be on the ground and affected by some of the events that transpired, let me say this.
1. NATO/U.S Forces screwed up when they did not immediately explain that the Korans were burned as they were being used by detainees to send messages back and forth.
2. Once those Korans were discovered to have been desecrated by the same animals who would then point fingers at us, it should have been documented and photographed. One would assume that intelligence people would have done so in the even that there was something of importance in them. Then we need to immediately use the media to show and explain exactly why it was done. Although ultimately it wouldn't have mattered considering the population is over 70% illiterate.
2. According to our LN's the Koran can in fact be burned if it is damaged or tattered, but it has to be done with some respect. It also needs to be completely burned, not just bits and pieces. So here is where we went wrong and someone should have used their brain to make sure things were being done properly.
3. Why are we still here? The mission has been accomplished- Al-Qaeda has been disrupted, OBL is dead, the Taliban are gone (for the most part although they are now slowly creeping in) and we have no business trying to rebuild this country. It was ****ed before we got here and it will continue to be after we leave. We are wasting lives and money needlessly and the American people need to tell the politicians to bring us out now.
Thanks for the real scoop. Stay safe.
If I were an American in Afghanistan right now, I wouldn't do a damned thing I didn't have to. I'd spend all my time keeping my head down and staying alive till I was returned stateside.
There is absolutely nothing worthwhile we can do there between now and when we bring everyone home. Every American death at this point is a needless one. :(
Belmont31R
03-01-12, 15:46
Time to bring everyone home.
Gimme a break.
This is never gonna happen. It's just another bullshit story from a fundamentalist religious website looking to stoke up some controversy.
Search the intergoogle. This same story is popping up on all the ultra-conservative websites. That should be a clue. When somebody finds one credible source to substantiate the claims in the article, get back to me.
And isn't the actual reason the korans were burned because detainees were using the books to pass messages back and forth? Isn't writing in the koran considering defacing a sacred text? So why isn't that POS Karzai calling for public beheadings of the Afghans scribbling mash notes to each other? Sorry, but it's time to tell these ****ing people to settle their own hash and get the hell out ... yesterday!
ETA: Sorry, watrdawg, for the repeat. I should have been reading instead writing.
So now that the UN in Afghanistan is demanding punishment and justice against the soldiers you still think it's just some fake religious fundamentalists ?
Fact is the apologizing and bowing he does to all these countries that Obama is doing is giving them power and loosing ours !
As someone who happens to be on the ground and affected by some of the events that transpired, let me say this.
1. NATO/U.S Forces screwed up when they did not immediately explain that the Korans were burned as they were being used by detainees to send messages back and forth.
2. Once those Korans were discovered to have been desecrated by the same animals who would then point fingers at us, it should have been documented and photographed. One would assume that intelligence people would have done so in the even that there was something of importance in them. Then we need to immediately use the media to show and explain exactly why it was done. Although ultimately it wouldn't have mattered considering the population is over 70% illiterate.
2. According to our LN's the Koran can in fact be burned if it is damaged or tattered, but it has to be done with some respect. It also needs to be completely burned, not just bits and pieces. So here is where we went wrong and someone should have used their brain to make sure things were being done properly.
3. Why are we still here? The mission has been accomplished- Al-Qaeda has been disrupted, OBL is dead, the Taliban are gone (for the most part although they are now slowly creeping in) and we have no business trying to rebuild this country. It was ****ed before we got here and it will continue to be after we leave. We are wasting lives and money needlessly and the American people need to tell the politicians to bring us out now.
Couldn't agree more.
Gimme a break.
This is never gonna happen. It's just another bullshit story from a fundamentalist religious website looking to stoke up some controversy.
Search the intergoogle. This same story is popping up on all the ultra-conservative websites. That should be a clue. When somebody finds one credible source to substantiate the claims in the article, get back to me.
The claim, from the title of the OP's linked article, is mainly that the Afghans SAY that the Quran-burning soldiers are going to face trial, and that NATO agreed to that.
The Reuters article seems to repeat the same basic claim:
http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/02/23/us-afghanistan-korans-idUSTRE81K09T20120223
Karzai getting too big for his britches. Kinda' pathetic, given that a number of guys from Army 5th SF group gave their lives to protect the guy. Now, when something happened that was clearly a mistake but not malicious and not intentionally disrespectful, he turns on us.
The dude wouldn't even be alive--let alone in power--if it weren't for our guys.
You guys are mixing issues and muddying the waters. Whether or not we should be in Afghanistan has no bearing on the fact that we are.
Given that the mission is ongoing, whether you like that fact or not, there are still standards of conduct that servicemembers are expected to adhere to. It's called being a professional.
What most people fail to understand is that the I/O (Information Operations) campaign is one of the most important "fights" in Afghanistan. In fact, the entire non-kinetic side of things is primarily where progress is made.
Kinetic actions in the near term nearly always represent strategic forfeitures. When the benefit of an offensive action at the tactical level is judged to be conducive to a long term strategic level gain, despite the short term forfeiture, such an action will be approved.
My point here is that non-traditional activities such as I/O represent a large and important portion of the work we're doing in Afghanistan. In large part, success or failure hinges on things like I/O.
As such, an I/O failure is NO different from negligence and failure while in direct fire contact with the enemy...and the people responsible for this failure need to be held accountable. People are dying because of their negligence. Yes, I blame the lunatics shooting our servicemembers, first and foremost. But we cannot control the actions of others. The US Military is responsible for its own actions, not anybody else's.
Whoever thought it was a good idea to dispose of Qurans by burning them in a burn pit where LN's work is a ****ing retard. It's like those responsible hand delivered a massive strategic victory to the Taliban on a silver platter. And because of this incompetence, the mission has been set back hugely and people are dying. This action represents a failure of duty. This kind of mistake gets punished in the Military. That's just how shit works.
PS. None of this should be construed as "America blaming." This is in many ways a personal topic for me, and I've spent more than my fair share of time on the ground in Afghanistan. Again, the Afghans are for the most part a bunch of illiterate lunatics. But I can't control that. What I can control are my own actions, despite the lunacy of theirs. Same goes for the US MIL as a whole.
Belmont31R
03-01-12, 17:11
You guys are mixing issues and muddying the waters.
No they are one in the same. Its not worth our people's lives and our nations money to be in a place where something like this turns people we HAVE to trust into murderers of our soldiers.
The US military is made up of people, and people are not perfect. We should not be in a place in this capacity where a mistake turns into six of our guys getting shot in cold blood. Im not against military action when warranted but I am against nation building in these shit hole countries.
As I said time to bring everyone home. Whether we are there for 10 years, 20 years, 50 years. Its going to be a barbaric country full of muslim savages. They are not worth our people's lives or the hundreds of billions we have spent.
This is only a symptom of the larger failure to comprehend nation building in the land of savages does not work.
This discussion is about punishing the servicemembers who decided to dispose of Qurans by burning them in a place that LN's work, in plain view. It is a discussion about tangibles, about specifics, about mechanisms of punishment, about UCMJ, about standards. It is not theoretical. It is not about the merits of nation building or US foreign policy.
I agree that the US shouldn't be in Afghanistan. We are. Until the last soldier steps onto a plane out of BAF headed home, American soldiers are accountable for their actions. They are obligated to give 100% to the mission they are tasked with, regardless of how nonsensical it may seem to you. The absurdity of the mission does not absolve us of the responsibility to do our jobs to the best of our abilities.
Handing the Taliban an I/O victory by being negligent is a punishable event. It's plain, simple, cut and dry.
No they are one in the same. Its not worth our people's lives and our nations money to be in a place where something like this turns people we HAVE to trust into murderers of our soldiers.
The US military is made up of people, and people are not perfect. We should not be in a place in this capacity where a mistake turns into six of our guys getting shot in cold blood. Im not against military action when warranted but I am against nation building in these shit hole countries.
As I said time to bring everyone home. Whether we are there for 10 years, 20 years, 50 years. Its going to be a barbaric country full of muslim savages. They are not worth our people's lives or the hundreds of billions we have spent.
This is only a symptom of the larger failure to comprehend nation building in the land of savages does not work.
Belmont31R
03-01-12, 17:42
This discussion is about punishing the servicemembers who decided to dispose of Qurans by burning them in a place that LN's work, in plain view. It is a discussion about tangibles, about specifics, about mechanisms of punishment, about UCMJ, about standards. It is not theoretical. It is not about the merits of nation building or US foreign policy.
I agree that the US shouldn't be in Afghanistan. We are. Until the last soldier steps onto a plane out of BAF headed home, American soldiers are accountable for their actions. They are obligated to give 100% to the mission they are tasked with, regardless of how nonsensical it may seem to you. The absurdity of the mission does not absolve us of the responsibility to do our jobs to the best of our abilities.
Handing the Taliban an I/O victory by being negligent is a punishable event. It's plain, simple, cut and dry.
Why is it punishable? If they were bibles or other religious texts besides Koran's would these soldiers be getting punished?
I don't really see how you can punish someone for something like this unless you want to use a 'catch all' article of the UCMJ. The only reason they would be punished is because it upset some Muslims. Not all of them. Some of them.
Koran burning is actually the proper method of disposing of defaced Korans.
Do you remember the Muslims who were upset OBL got a sea burial? Where is the UCMJ for everyone on that?
The handling of The Quran is addressed in tactical directives from COMISAF which are supposed to be briefed down the COC. These tactical directives constitute "orders." You can be sure that a detention facility that works with Qurans regularly is well aware of the do's and dont's and likely has additional SOP's in place. Somebody screwed up, and the consequences have obviously been severe. I'm not an expert on UCMJ, so I can't tell you how, specifically, those responsible would be punished.
I'm not even saying that they should have the book thrown at them. A simple reprimand or depending on the information and who is responsible, a loss of command seems appropriate. Do you trust the judgement of a person who makes such poor decisions to be in charge? I sure don't.
Granted, we don't know specifics. I don't know the exact circumstances that ended up with half burnt Qurans. But it happened, and that implies failure at some level.
PS. The argument about buring Qurans being the proper way to dispose of them is meaningless. What is the proper way to dispose of an unserviceable American Flag? Burning it. What is one of the gravest offenses to our nation? Burning the American Flag. It's all about context.
Again, we can't control the absurd actions of the Afghans. We can only control our own actions, and that's where the focus ought to be.
Why is it punishable? If they were bibles or other religious texts besides Koran's would these soldiers be getting punished?
I don't really see how you can punish someone for something like this unless you want to use a 'catch all' article of the UCMJ. The only reason they would be punished is because it upset some Muslims. Not all of them. Some of them.
Koran burning is actually the proper method of disposing of defaced Korans.
Do you remember the Muslims who were upset OBL got a sea burial? Where is the UCMJ for everyone on that?
Belmont31R
03-01-12, 18:16
I'm not an expert on UCMJ, so I can't tell you how, specifically, those responsible would be punished.
PS. The argument about buring Qurans being the proper way to dispose of them is meaningless. .
Unless there was an SOP or other directive establishing a method of burning of these things or other disposal is there then I don't see how you can punish someone for this. Nothing has really been said about the COC in this specific situation and I doubt anyone lower than O5 would be setting SOP on Koran disposal.
The sudden desire to punish those who burned them seems like a knee jerk reaction to quell the backlash not actually make things right. Just throwing some poor sap under the bus. This just strikes me as looking for a sacrificial lamb for the slaughter to appease some Muslims and not because anyone actually violated any orders. I may be mistaken, and maybe there was SOP there on this. Catch all phrases and wording do not make for justice. Just like disorderly conduct charges here in the states are often just a way to take someone to jail for a day or because you pissed someone off rather than actually doing anything wrong.
Do you have a link to the ISAF order on Korans? That would shed more light than whats been going in this thread than anything. If they violated a specific order than that is one thing. Ambiguously written directives about disrespecting the Koran shouldn't be used to crucify some soldiers when burning the Koran is the proper method of disposal.
Yes burning the flag in protest is not the same as burning a flag for disposal. Ive not read anything to date that says they were burned in an act of intentional disrespect. My understanding is they were being written in by detainees and they were ordered to be burned to dispose of them. Nothing there suggest intentional disrespect or malice.
You guys are mixing issues and muddying the waters. Whether or not we should be in Afghanistan has no bearing on the fact that we are.
Given that the mission is ongoing, whether you like that fact or not, there are still standards of conduct that servicemembers are expected to adhere to. It's called being a professional.
What most people fail to understand is that the I/O (Information Operations) campaign is one of the most important "fights" in Afghanistan. In fact, the entire non-kinetic side of things is primarily where progress is made.
Kinetic actions in the near term nearly always represent strategic forfeitures. When the benefit of an offensive action at the tactical level is judged to be conducive to a long term strategic level gain, despite the short term forfeiture, such an action will be approved.
My point here is that non-traditional activities such as I/O represent a large and important portion of the work we're doing in Afghanistan. In large part, success or failure hinges on things like I/O.
As such, an I/O failure is NO different from negligence and failure while in direct fire contact with the enemy...and the people responsible for this failure need to be held accountable. People are dying because of their negligence. Yes, I blame the lunatics shooting our servicemembers, first and foremost. But we cannot control the actions of others. The US Military is responsible for its own actions, not anybody else's.
Whoever thought it was a good idea to dispose of Qurans by burning them in a burn pit where LN's work is a ****ing retard. It's like those responsible hand delivered a massive strategic victory to the Taliban on a silver platter. And because of this incompetence, the mission has been set back hugely and people are dying. This action represents a failure of duty. This kind of mistake gets punished in the Military. That's just how shit works.
PS. None of this should be construed as "America blaming." This is in many ways a personal topic for me, and I've spent more than my fair share of time on the ground in Afghanistan. Again, the Afghans are for the most part a bunch of illiterate lunatics. But I can't control that. What I can control are my own actions, despite the lunacy of theirs. Same goes for the US MIL as a whole.
Everything you just posted is laying out a perfect case for the US military to be GONE from Afghanistan. When I/O is deemed one of the most important "fights", US service members should be replaced with the State Dept. Would the State Dept. take over these duties there today? Not a ****ing chance. Too dangerous they'd say. Well you can't really expect diplomacy from the barrel of a gun to be taken kindly or work effectively now can you? "illiterate lunactics" will never respond well to "military diplomacy", because it's a ****ing oxymoron!
If you're over there pussyfooting around and trying to ingratiate yourselves to tribal leaders and an ignorant regime led by a ****ing con-man, you have no business doing it with guns displayed! THAT, is lunacy! When combat has to be reviewed at the General Grade level to determine whether it's worth the tactical loss for strategic goals, you have already lost the war.
I have very little respect for anyone who would use our warfighters so shamelessly and waste their lives on such a pathetic goal. Some platoon level troops doing something stupid is NOT going to destroy our military. Continuing to expect them to abide by ridiculous ROE's will. :mad:
thopkins22
03-01-12, 18:47
The sudden desire to punish those who burned them seems like a knee jerk reaction to quell the backlash not actually make things right. Just throwing some poor sap under the bus. This just strikes me as looking for a sacrificial lamb for the slaughter to appease some Muslims and not because anyone actually violated any orders.
Or perhaps, just perhaps, it's because it was akin to creating a recruiting drive for extremists. They want to tell their people that the US is fighting a war on Muslims. We want them to know that's not the case.
Perhaps that's not the way Obama and others view it. But don't discount that there might be valid reasons to not tolerate it.
No, unfortunately I don't have a link for the specific directive. It's more about the bad judgement than the specific breakage of rules anyway. The poor execution of the disposal is what's troubling and indicates a leadership failure. Even if there was an attempt to do it the proper way, that clearly isn't what happened. It's hard to believe such a crucial mistake was made.
But I do think you're right that there is an element of appeasement here. The punishment is clearly not all about broken rules, and likely largely based on damage control.
I'm going to tell you a story that, I think, explains why this is happening:
I don't know if you remember a headline from last year where it was claimed that coalition forces had killed 64 civilians in Kunar, Afghanistan. In case not, here's the story:
http://news.antiwar.com/2011/02/20/governor-nato-offensive-killed-64-civilians-in-afghanistans-kunar-province/
I can't get too far into specifics, but I was directly involved and making decisions during that operation. Anyway, I was involved in and had "eyes on" all engagements and can say unequivocally that all 64 were enemy KIA, not civilians. Helmet camera and gun camera footage painted a clear picture that all the engagements were clean.
The few Taliban that were left alive took to mutilating local women and children and sending them to hospitals, forcing them to say that Americans had done this to them and killed the others.
The tribal elders in the area, and even the governor of Kunar, afraid to defy the Taliban, went along with the story. Hamid Karzai, having almost non-existant political capital and needing to maintain support, refused to review the footage we had and publicly supported his elders and governor.
ISAF level leadership at first resisted and insisted they were combatants, but then later made the decision to not defy Karzai in the media, even though my unit had sufficiently proved that there were no civilian casualties. ISAF admitted to killing 64 civilians, even though everyone knew it was not true.
Why am I telling you this story? To frame these events in the perspective of upper level leadership. To them, it's about the end game, and bigger than individual soldiers. Like it or not, we've got all our eggs in Hamid Karzai's Government's basket. To have even a semblance of success, Hamid Karzai's government must have some level of success after we leave.
If Hamid Karzai doesn't demand "justice" in the eyes of the Afghan people for the burned Quran's, what little chance he has of holding on to power will be further diminished. Same as if he didn't support his elders and governors in the story I told above. Is it BS? Yup. But hey, TIA (This is Afghanistan). The waters are murky and the darkness is deep.
And so, with the Karzai government's success so intertwined with our own, the powers that be may deem it fit to "throw somebody under the bus" as it's been put.
I don't agree with this, and these are not the reasons for which I feel the responsible parties should be punished. I'm just telling it like it is.
If this is what's happening to those involved in the Quran burning incident, then I take back everything I've said. And that is entirely possible when juxtaposed with the story I told. But if there was actually a bad decision and a breach in protocol, I stand by my criticism of those involved.
Unless there was an SOP or other directive establishing a method of burning of these things or other disposal is there then I don't see how you can punish someone for this. Nothing has really been said about the COC in this specific situation and I doubt anyone lower than O5 would be setting SOP on Koran disposal.
The sudden desire to punish those who burned them seems like a knee jerk reaction to quell the backlash not actually make things right. Just throwing some poor sap under the bus. This just strikes me as looking for a sacrificial lamb for the slaughter to appease some Muslims and not because anyone actually violated any orders. I may be mistaken, and maybe there was SOP there on this. Catch all phrases and wording do not make for justice. Just like disorderly conduct charges here in the states are often just a way to take someone to jail for a day or because you pissed someone off rather than actually doing anything wrong.
Do you have a link to the ISAF order on Korans? That would shed more light than whats been going in this thread than anything. If they violated a specific order than that is one thing. Ambiguously written directives about disrespecting the Koran shouldn't be used to crucify some soldiers when burning the Koran is the proper method of disposal.
Yes burning the flag in protest is not the same as burning a flag for disposal. Ive not read anything to date that says they were burned in an act of intentional disrespect. My understanding is they were being written in by detainees and they were ordered to be burned to dispose of them. Nothing there suggest intentional disrespect or malice.
I don't disagree with you brother. I'm no longer on active duty, but when you're doing the job, you can't let your personal beliefs diminish your performance. You've still got to execute orders as if the world depends on it. Just the way it is.
Everything you just posted is laying out a perfect case for the US military to be GONE from Afghanistan. When I/O is deemed one of the most important "fights", US service members should be replaced with the State Dept. Would the State Dept. take over these duties there today? Not a ****ing chance. Too dangerous they'd say. Well you can't really expect diplomacy from the barrel of a gun to be taken kindly or work effectively now can you? "illiterate lunactics" will never respond well to "military diplomacy", because it's a ****ing oxymoron!
If you're over there pussyfooting around and trying to ingratiate yourselves to tribal leaders and an ignorant regime led by a ****ing con-man, you have no business doing it with guns displayed! THAT, is lunacy! When combat has to be reviewed at the General Grade level to determine whether it's worth the tactical loss for strategic goals, you have already lost the war.
I have very little respect for anyone who would use our warfighters so shamelessly and waste their lives on such a pathetic goal. Some platoon level troops doing something stupid is NOT going to destroy our military. Continuing to expect them to abide by ridiculous ROE's will. :mad:
Or perhaps, just perhaps, it's because it was akin to creating a recruiting drive for extremists. They want to tell their people that the US is fighting a war on Muslims. We want them to know that's not the case.
Perhaps that's not the way Obama and others view it. But don't discount that there might be valid reasons to not tolerate it.
Like our presence there isn't enough? The best way to combat the Taliban's recruiting efforts is to LEAVE. :(
thopkins22
03-01-12, 20:06
Like our presence there isn't enough? The best way to combat the Taliban's recruiting efforts is to LEAVE. :(
I don't remember disagreeing with that idea. ;)
But at the moment, Afghanistan is a country our military happens to be in.
I'm not into appeasement. I'd love to see more cartoons depicting Mohammed in a silly fashion, and all of those kinds of things. Hell burn a Koran if it pleases you(though I generally don't think highly of burning books.)
Everything will be ok. POTUS apologized.
I don't remember disagreeing with that idea. ;)
But at the moment, Afghanistan is a country our military happens to be in.
I'm not into appeasement. I'd love to see more cartoons depicting Mohammed in a silly fashion, and all of those kinds of things. Hell burn a Koran if it pleases you(though I generally don't think highly of burning books.)
I know. I don't agree with burning books either, even the Koran. :)
montanadave
03-11-12, 12:02
Time to bring everyone home.
The situation in Afghanistan has gone from bad to worse. While the initial reports are that the attack leaving 16 Afghani civilians dead was carried out by a lone U.S. serviceman, Reuters has now posted a story citing eyewitness accounts that there were multiple American soldiers involved, they "were laughing and appeared drunk" during the shootings, and subsequently doused the bodies with a flammable liquid and set them aflame.
http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/03/11/us-afghanistan-civilians-idUSBRE82A02V20120311
I am suspicious of the authenticity of the Reuter's story, as it seems too convenient to have the Koran burning episode followed by burning the bodies of women and children, and will withhold judgement until these specific allegations can be verified. Regardless, the story is out there and will undoubtedly incite a massive outpouring of anger and violence against American and NATO forces in Afghanistan.
I don't envy anyone having to make decisions as to how we proceed from here in Afghanistan, as any good options seem long gone. And the politics of a presidential election are going to make rational decision-making that much more difficult.
Shit. Nothing but shit as far as the eye can see.
Mauser KAR98K
03-11-12, 13:26
The situation in Afghanistan has gone from bad to worse. While the initial reports are that the attack leaving 16 Afghani civilians dead was carried out by a lone U.S. serviceman, Reuters has now posted a story citing eyewitness accounts that there were multiple American soldiers involved, they "were laughing and appeared drunk" during the shootings, and subsequently doused the bodies with a flammable liquid and set them aflame.
http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/03/11/us-afghanistan-civilians-idUSBRE82A02V20120311
I am suspicious of the authenticity of the Reuter's story, as it seems too convenient to have the Koran burning episode followed by burning the bodies of women and children, and will withhold judgement until these specific allegations can be verified. Regardless, the story is out there and will undoubtedly incite a massive outpouring of anger and violence against American and NATO forces in Afghanistan.
I don't envy anyone having to make decisions as to how we proceed from here in Afghanistan, as any good options seem long gone. And the politics of a presidential election are going to make rational decision-making that much more difficult.
Shit. Nothing but shit as far as the eye can see.
BBC is reporting it is just one guy.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-17330205
Suggest we move this conversation to a different thread, but yeah, I agree, this is about to become a shit storm of gigantic fan proportions.
montanadave
03-11-12, 14:10
BBC is reporting it is just one guy.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-17330205
Suggest we move this conversation to a different thread, but yeah, I agree, this is about to become a shit storm of gigantic fan proportions.
All major news outlets and governmental spokesmen are standing by the "lone gunman" story at this point, making it difficult to believe the Reuter's story isn't a Taliban spin job, as if the truth isn't bad enough to incite mass hysteria.
It's just flat out bad. No additional spin required.
It's astounding that anyone, anywhere (barring a mental patient) would have so little disregard for the lives of not only children, but also those of his fellow soldiers who he has now placed in even greater harms way. I don't care for the sand rats either, but this was just bad. Only his selfishness outweighs his obvious hate.
Anyone else curious that this might be a false flag operation?
Mauser KAR98K
03-11-12, 21:34
Anyone else curious that this might be a false flag operation?
For whom, by whom, and for what reason?
It's getting out of control over there. We need to be gone yesterday. Every death now is a needless one. Why we're wasting our time there is unfathomable. :(
Mauser KAR98K
03-12-12, 03:38
It's getting out of control over there. We need to be gone yesterday. Every death now is a needless one. Why we're wasting our time there is unfathomable. :(
I've bee a big supporter of the mission in Afghanistan since 9/11. A quest for vengeance, and a quest to get the area into the modern age, to kill all the fundamental jihadis we can and put their ideology into the dirt. Afghanistan is the key to get the Middle East on track, and to become less than a giant hot spot.
With that said: the mission in Afghanistan is non-existent. The American public don't know that the true war-aim is, the true goal, excpet to win. Win what? Without nothing short than a full conversion to something else besides Sufi Islam, mass education for at least 3 generations on the merits of modern enlightenment, the war is destined to drag on for an untold amount of time. But if the mission goal is not clearly stated and defined, than there is no hope of a victory, and this is what we have.
We are just there, trying to train the Afghans to take over, but yet, we can't trust them with our troops' immediate safety. We won't grab the government by the scruff of their necks and tell them to get their act together and stop wasting our time and money, but we let them berate us without batting an eye. WTF!
If this is the way our time in a country we helped liberate from a harsh tyrannical government, there because of the terror group that murdered Americans on a Tuesday morning was given quarter, than we should be dictating every inch of the war, removing corrupt officials and replacing them with trusted people the both Afghans and Us can agree with...then we are hopelessly lost.
If this is the case, return our soldiers, let the chips fall where they might. But we need to be vigilant, ready with a better plan when it all comes back to haunt us, because it will. This enemy is patient, and will strike again, setting us all back on course for another bloody war. Lets hope we have better leaders by then, and lets hope the winning strategy will come out.
yes, the war hawk in me is saying it is time to come home. Parade our heroes and soldiers, they did what was asked, and what the main purpose had been. We stopped Al Qaeda for the most part, Tall One is with the fishes. After the fanfare; rest, recoup, and then deploy to our Southern boarder. The Cartels are killing more people than the Taliban. If there is one country that really needs to be un****ed, it is the one to our immediate south.
Bolt_Overide
03-12-12, 08:58
Shit. Nothing but shit as far as the eye can see.
That sums it up as best as anyone could.
It is time to call it a day over there, or shall we say a decade. There is no hope for westerners to change Afghanistan or it's people. The place will be left the shit hole it was when we arrived due to corruption, ineptitude and deeply ingrained hate. Why waste two more years worth of valuable funds and especially lives when there is no longer doubt about the hopelessness of the current mission?
montanadave
03-12-12, 14:02
It is time to call it a day over there, or shall we say a decade. There is no hope for westerners to change Afghanistan or it's people. The place will be left the shit hole it was when we arrived due to corruption, ineptitude and deeply ingrained hate. Why waste two more years worth of valuable funds and especially lives when there is no longer doubt about the hopelessness of the current mission?
While I agree with your assessment, politics will trump common sense and American servicemen will die because of it.
Neither political party will tolerate being the party that "cut and ran" on Afghanistan and leave themselves wide open for the shit storm of recriminations which would surely be directed at them by the opposition if (or more likely when) there is another terrorist attack against Americans either at home or abroad which can be traced back to al-Qaeda or any other Islamist group even remotely tied to Afghanistan.
Afghanistan is like stepping in dog shit. It's real easy to do if you're not paying attention, it's hard to clean off, and the smell never seems to go away.
Sometimes, I wonder what would have happened had OBL been killed in Tora Bora or some other operation early in 2002. I always got the feeling that by not catching OBL, we allowed mission creep to set in while we continued the hunt. Gradually, the mission went from killing OBL to transforming A-stan into a flourishing democracy or republic (which is fundamentally opposed to Islamic tradition). The same could be said about Iraq. Now, things have "progressed" so far that we have completely lost any strategic vision for what would justify our withdrawal.
montanadave
03-12-12, 14:10
Sometimes, I wonder what would have happened had OBL been killed in Tora Bora or some other operation early in 2002.
And sometimes, in my darkest conspiratorial moods, I wonder if there weren't some folks who took deliberate steps to insure that OBL wasn't killed at Tora-Bora, for if OBL had been killed our 911 bete noire would have been eliminated and the American public would have had no interest or stomach for prosecuting an extension of the GWOT into Iraq.
It really is as simple as this:
If you burn a Koran Afghan Muslims will hate us and want to kill us.
If you DON'T burn a Koran Afghan Muslims will hate us and want to kill us.
This is exactly how things are. People scream oh it will cause them to attack us/the troops if we do such and such. Like this people EVEN NEED a reason to attack us.
Sometimes, I wonder what would have happened had OBL been killed in Tora Bora or some other operation early in 2002. I always got the feeling that by not catching OBL, we allowed mission creep to set in while we continued the hunt. Gradually, the mission went from killing OBL to transforming A-stan into a flourishing democracy or republic (which is fundamentally opposed to Islamic tradition). The same could be said about Iraq. Now, things have "progressed" so far that we have completely lost any strategic vision for what would justify our withdrawal.
I wonder if anyone in the decision making chain learned any lessons from Tora Bora. The official position is that OBL was already gone, but some on the ground there say he wasn't. Regardless, it was incredibly foolish to rely on locals to prosecute such a high value target. Had Obama done the same with Pakistan in Abbottabad, OBL would still be at large.
When the US is attacked as we were on 9/11, the only thing the country hosting the attackers should do is move aside and hope we get our culprits quickly. They should have no part in the action itself. If they actively block the pursuit, they should expect to be destroyed.
When it was discovered that OBL was no longer in Afghanistan, we should have moved all our troops to the Afghanistan/Pakistan border and set up operations to pursue OBL and Al-Qaeda. Afghanistan should've been left to their own devices.
The president did the right thing by greenlighting the .mission where OBL was killed. Our intelligence and Military did the work.
I wonder if anyone in the decision making chain learned any lessons from Tora Bora. The official position is that OBL was already gone, but some on the ground there say he wasn't. Regardless, it was incredibly foolish to rely on locals to prosecute such a high value target. Had Obama done the same with Pakistan in Abbottabad, OBL would still be at large.
When the US is attacked as we were on 9/11, the only thing the country hosting the attackers should do is move aside and hope we get our culprits quickly. They should have no part in the action itself. If they actively block the pursuit, they should expect to be destroyed.
When it was discovered that OBL was no longer in Afghanistan, we should have moved all our troops to the Afghanistan/Pakistan border and set up operations to pursue OBL and Al-Qaeda. Afghanistan should've been left to their own devices.
GTG, I agree with everything in you first two paragraphs. I also agree with the principles in your last paragraph. However, I'm not sure if it would have been logistically possible to set up shop only on the border in 2002. When I was roaming around RC East in 2009, we were very much dependent on areas around Kabul. For example, our higher HQ was at BAF. Now, things might have been different with the Taliban on the ropes in 2002 - I just don't know. There are a few members of this forum and LF who were active in A-stan during the first year of operations. I'd love to hear their opinions on the feasibility of such an limited approach.
GTG, I agree with everything in you first two paragraphs. I also agree with the principles in your last paragraph. However, I'm not sure if it would have been logistically possible to set up shop only on the border in 2002. When I was roaming around RC East in 2009, we were very much dependent on areas around Kabul. For example, our higher HQ was at BAF. Now, things might have been different with the Taliban on the ropes in 2002 - I just don't know. There are a few members of this forum and LF who were active in A-stan during the first year of operations. I'd love to hear their opinions on the feasibility of such an limited approach.
You may be right. It might have put us in an untenable position. Like you, I'd like to hear the opinions of someone who was there at the time. Given the option, I'd always defer to those "in theater" over speculation.
Belmont31R
03-16-12, 21:52
It's astounding that anyone, anywhere (barring a mental patient) would have so little disregard for the lives of not only children, but also those of his fellow soldiers who he has now placed in even greater harms way. I don't care for the sand rats either, but this was just bad. Only his selfishness outweighs his obvious hate.
He has deployed over twice as much as I did, with a family when I didn't, and seen things I never did. While he may get the needle I wish him peace in thought and know that some people snap in war.
I just wish the media put the same exposure to muslim on muslim crimes as they do American on muslim. Ive seen countless vidoes of mass executions perpetrated by either Iraqis/AQinIraq or Taliban on other muslims what this dude did pales in comparison.
If muslims, and OUR media are so uncaring about muslim on muslim mass slaughter why should I give a shit when one our dudes, who has been deployed 5 times snaps, and ends up killing people suddenly we're supposed to plaster it all over the news and sentence him to death before a single word in court has been spoken.
If he is convicted he should go to jail for a long time time. No death penalty in my opinion I am usually all for the needle or the noose!
montanadave
03-17-12, 11:55
I'll withhold judgment on Staff Sgt. Bales until the evidence is presented, but if he just twisted off and decided to walk into people's homes and execute women and children lying in their beds ... well, that's a death penalty offense in my opinion.
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