View Full Version : 12.5 Kino+ ... My plan for a Kino build
So.... I'm kicking around an 11.5" traditional vs a 12.5" Kino or rather free float 12.5" with a barrel mounted front sight (Kino+). In my other thread, Rob_s was kind enough to point out the weight of the Kino is it's biggest down fall, and he's right. A lot of setups can get very heavy very quickly. This is relative of course, a "heavy" 12.5" Kino is still going to be lighter than a standard 16" with A2. Just not as light as a free float 12.5 with a folding sight.
The other issue with the Kino is I do plan on an XPS3 or a T1. So the fixed front A2 sight really might not be ideal, MIGHT. So I'm considering a folding barrel mounted sight. PRI, ARMS, Wilson, etc instead. Now along these lines, since the front sight is NOT the gas block, I don't really see the mission critical stance on having it pinned, a cross bolt clamp on seems fine in this case. It's just going to be a backup after all.
My build idea is below. I want a Go-To gun that's just ready all the time. Not a PDW, not a rifle, just a nice carbine that won't cost me an arm and a leg. I will be suppressing it, and I guess if that W.A.R. receiver ever comes around I'll probably want that for gas regulation.
Apex extended midlength handguard
Clamp-on A2, PRI Folding, or ARMS 41b folding front sight
Centurion 12.5" CHF barrel (the only CHF I can find in the profile I want)
vltor low pro at carbine position
standard forged upper
surefire x300 or other
The other build I am considering is a 11.5" CHF, Wilson TRIM rail, folding sight, low profile gas block. Between the two, I calculated a approx 2oz weight difference in the 11.5" flavor. So, I'm not really considering this much as I lose quite a bit in range and money, then only save a couple ounces and an inch.
Am I making a mistake with my proposed setup? Is a traditional 11.5" better in some way I am not realizing? I would consider a 12.5" traditional, but I really am not crazy about the length of barrel past the handguard, it's completely lame of me, I know.
I figured I would probably try a clamp-on A2 first and if it was in the way I'd get a folding. On the folding I still need to start a thread about PRI vs ARMS 41b, but if anyone has opinions... ?
Anything else I might be missing? Thanks
Oh, I forgot. The apex guard is because I'm trying desperately to avoid quad rails. I don't need the extra weight, plus the weight of the rail covers. I'm over the Troy barrel nut in a big way, so they are out. The apex looks pretty good imo.
Here is a photoshop of what I'm considering
http://img833.imageshack.us/img833/2440/img4591copye.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/833/img4591copye.jpg/)
SpankMonkey
02-29-12, 19:14
Why the apex over something carbon fiber?
I would go with the 12.5" over the 11.5" you will gain better ballistics with only a 1" gain. You could make up for the 2oz gain by using carbon fiber.
Why the apex over something carbon fiber?
I would go with the 12.5" over the 11.5" you will gain better ballistics with only a 1" gain. You could make up for the 2oz gain by using carbon fiber.
To be honest, I hadn't looked at any carbon guards. The main reasons I like the Apex are is very light, good reviews, factory barrel nut which in my opinion while not great for accuracy is good for its application, integrated QD sockets, extended length, built in texture, I like the look.
I'll putt around for some carbon alternatives.
Agreed on the 12.5" though. If I want really short, I'll do a 9" 300blk.
I am going to be doing a 10.5" LMT upper with the Apex Extended Carbine hand guard. Should be a pretty sweet upper. Maybe something else to consider if you want to run the Apex hand guard with a fsb but go shorter than 12.5".
How long of a barrel do you have to go to to get a mid-length gas system on it? Could you do it on a 12.5" barrel?
I am going to be doing a 10.5" LMT upper with the Apex Extended Carbine hand guard. Should be a pretty sweet upper. Maybe something else to consider if you want to run the Apex hand guard with a fsb but go shorter than 12.5".
How long of a barrel do you have to go to to get a mid-length gas system on it? Could you do it on a 12.5" barrel?
I wanted to avoid 10.5" because of the concussion and blast. 12.5" isn't much better I guess, a little easier on cans at least. But I apprecaite other people are also looking into apex.
I have seen people write 12.5 midlength works, and I own 13.7" mid, but I really don't think the advantages are there unless its at least 14.5".
But yea, Kino is 12.5 carbine with an fsb also. Allows carbine with a midlength handguard
I wanted to avoid 10.5" because of the concussion and blast. 12.5" isn't much better I guess, a little easier on cans at least. But I apprecaite other people are also looking into apex.
Mine will mostly only be shot suppressed except for a few months between getting my SBR stamp and my suppressor stamp. That or when I just want to make some noise and scare some people.
I wouldn't recommend these - "Clamp-on A2, PRI Folding, or ARMS 41b folding front sight." They are not of the greatest quality and can cause reliability/function issues (not to mention not hitting your target). You're better off with a set of of folding buis or keeping the A2 FS.
I'm over the Troy barrel nut in a big way, so they are out.
The Troy Alpha series rails use a standard barrel nut. They are now available with or without an integrated front sight.
I will also go against the idea of a clamp on front sight.
You could make up for the 2oz gain by using carbon fiber.
you sure about that? What two, exact and specific, handguards are you comparing?
For the record, I have just over 1k rounds on a Lancer CF handguard.
As I understand the attraction of the Kino, it's for people that prefer to have a fixed, barrel-attached, front sight. Whether because they are using irons-only or because they don't trust a clamp-on front sight for whatever their purposes are.
Something I don't see discussed much is using an FSP rail handguard on a standard 12.5" barrel. I've been thinking of doing one of these from Centurion as they sell all the right parts (12.5" barrel with carbine-position FSB, and a 12.0 FSP handguard). That would give me a place to mount an X300 at 12 o'clock, a longer handguard to cover the hot barrel and give me more flexibility on hand position and barricade support, and not have the redundancy of the separate gas block and FSB.
Also, I will say that I've been a fan of the Brazilian rails too, but as volumes of fire increase, heat increases, and there's something to be said for the traditional railed handguard systems and the rail covers they require for shielding one from the heat, and I'm really digging the Larue clips for this. I have a VTAC handguard on my HD gun and I'm going back to the DD M4 9.0 I had on it before thanks to the Larue clips.
Something I don't see discussed much is using an FSP rail handguard on a standard 12.5" barrel. I've been thinking of doing one of these from Centurion as they sell all the right parts (12.5" barrel with carbine-position FSB, and a 12.0 FSP handguard). That would give me a place to mount an X300 at 12 o'clock, a longer handguard to cover the hot barrel and give me more flexibility on hand position and barricade support, and not have the redundancy of the separate gas block and FSB.
Yeeessssss! My thoughts exactly. If I were to build another AR, this is definitely the route I would go, but, with a DD RISII M4A1 FSP.
I wouldn't recommend these - "Clamp-on A2, PRI Folding, or ARMS 41b folding front sight." They are not of the greatest quality and can cause reliability/function issues (not to mention not hitting your target). You're better off with a set of of folding buis or keeping the A2 FS.
You have doubts about the PRI folding front? Like the same one Crane chose to go on the MK12... That's interesting because I have no doubts about it at all. Especially since its just going to be a sight and not a gas block. VLTOR seems to suggest their crossbolt (which is practically the same as everyone else's, took 100lbs of rotational torque, meaning the barrel will sheer its index pin or strip out before that clamp gives.
Not sure if the ARMS has seen real world use, but if The MK12 uses a clamp on, it seems like its good to go. I'm sure they dd plenty of testing and not just trusted their gut feeling.
Of course I could be wrong, it's just speculation on my part.
Personally I would use a rail-clamp-on over a barrel-clamp-on.
A pinned FSB is far superior than any bolt on, screw on gas block.
You have doubts about the PRI folding front? Like the same one Crane chose to go on the MK12... That's interesting because I have no doubts about it at all. Especially since its just going to be a sight and not a gas block. VLTOR seems to suggest their crossbolt (which is practically the same as everyone else's, took 100lbs of rotational torque, meaning the barrel will sheer its index pin or strip out before that clamp gives.
Not sure if the ARMS has seen real world use, but if The MK12 uses a clamp on, it seems like its good to go. I'm sure they dd plenty of testing and not just trusted their gut feeling.
Of course I could be wrong, it's just speculation on my part.
A pinned FSB is far superior than any bolt on, screw on gas block.
Do you have actual proof of this? Or annecdotes?
Because it it's proof, please post it up, I'd love to read it. Ideally I'd like to see the sheer torque on both.
The sheer force on a pinned block is placed on a much smaller area when looking at pins. REALLY small actually. There is just a little but of pin at 4 places that rotational load is placed on. Now, I'm not saying its likely, it's not, but just looking at the sizes and styles, my guess is a pinned block is definitely strong than any clamp, but I suspect not double as strong, and both exceed even the most unlikely real world impacts.
That said, that's all my guess. I have a clamp on a saiga that's never moved, that's an annecdote. If anyone has actual PROOF about pinned v clamp on I'd love to see it. Otherwise maybe we can start a new thread about that and keep this one a little more on topic. I'll ignore the style of attachment for now and get back to the primary part of the build questions.
Rob, I still need to process your post, good suggestions there.
No, I made it up as I have nothing better to do in my free time. Enjoy your project.
Do you have actual proof of this? Or annecdotes?
Because it it's proof, please post it up, I'd love to read it. Ideally I'd like to see the sheer torque on both.
The sheer force on a pinned block is placed on a much smaller area when looking at pins. REALLY small actually. There is just a little but of pin at 4 places that rotational load is placed on. Now, I'm not saying its likely, it's not, but just looking at the sizes and styles, my guess is a pinned block is definitely strong than any clamp, but I suspect not double as strong, and both exceed even the most unlikely real world impacts.
That said, that's all my guess. I have a clamp on a saiga that's never moved, that's an annecdote. If anyone has actual PROOF about pinned v clamp on I'd love to see it. Otherwise maybe we can start a new thread about that and keep this one a little more on topic. I'll ignore the style of attachment for now and get back to the primary part of the build questions.
Rob, I still need to process your post, good suggestions there.
As I understand the attraction of the Kino, it's for people that prefer to have a fixed, barrel-attached, front sight. Whether because they are using irons-only or because they don't trust a clamp-on front sight for whatever their purposes are.
Ok, understood and agreed. The one thing I'm not sure about is that I might make this an irons only gun. Not sure yet, but it's a possibility for sure. Personally, I'm not really all that concerned about the pinned after seeing the Vltor test video and seeing one used on fielded military rifles.
Something I don't see discussed much is using an FSP rail handguard on a standard 12.5" barrel. I've been thinking of doing one of these from Centurion as they sell all the right parts (12.5" barrel with carbine-position FSB, and a 12.0 FSP handguard). That would give me a place to mount an X300 at 12 o'clock, a longer handguard to cover the hot barrel and give me more flexibility on hand position and barricade support, and not have the redundancy of the separate gas block and FSB.
EDIT: Oh, I just re-read this. You're looking to do a 12.5" barrel with a 12 FSP, that pretty much will exclude all silencers. No?
I'm with you there. An FSP is definitely a good idea for an SBR, and you're right I don't see that much. Mounting an X300 at 12 does have it's own issues though. Changing the battery or getting a QD that doesn't ride too high, getting it on and off, etc. I did a quick google and would like to the thread I found, but that's not allowed here.
Quick question, do you think the an X300 mounted at 9 or 11 on the extended midlength apex guard will produce a noticeable shadow or point of light / point of impact change compared to an X300 mounted at 12? I ask because I wonder if the extended will let you put the light out further past the FSB than a standard rail would.
Longer handguard we are agreed on. However, I really disagree on the redundancy...
By going with a Kino setup, what you're getting over a FSP rail is ONE extra once, but also getting a fully protected actual gas block. That is, on the FSP rail, you're gas block / sight is out there to get hit and damaged. One a kino, it's fully protected by the handguard. To say redundancy implies a negative. I see difference as at worst, a lateral change, neither better or worse. Just different.
The forged FSB can crack when hit. All talk about sheering pins and clamp rotation aside, if hit hard enough, it's steel on steel to the barrel, something must give. I've seen FSB's broken during install (twice) but never one already installed. Still, there is something to be said for protecting the gas block imo.
Also, I will say that I've been a fan of the Brazilian rails too, but as volumes of fire increase, heat increases, and there's something to be said for the traditional railed handguard systems and the rail covers they require for shielding one from the heat, and I'm really digging the Larue clips for this. I have a VTAC handguard on my HD gun and I'm going back to the DD M4 9.0 I had on it before thanks to the Larue clips.
I don't know. I've seen you mention the clips, but buying a rail with spaces I'll never use and then just putting clips on them goes against everything I believe in :D
How much weight do you have in LaRue clips? Is it more than the one once that I'm considering adding for the brazilian keno build? The Apex guard imo looks a lot better than the Troy which I have mixed feels about for various reasons (one solved with the Alpha series). Noveske, LaRue on their rifles, KAC with the URXIII, Geissele, Wilson, Troy, and even DD are all making shaved or modular rails. It really seems to me that quad rail with covered is an implementation on it's way out. I'm not saying I don't like my DD OmegaX, I do, it's just that I look at it and think "Why is this all here?" or more to the point, "why am I paying for this?" :)
No, I made it up as I have nothing better to do in my free time. Enjoy your project.
Oh, I'm not saying you made anything up.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5FfXscExrb4
I'm just saying things aren't so black and white. This Vltor video aside... And the military using the PRI barrel mounted sight on the MK12... To me, the linkage on the ARMS 41b looks stronger than any rail mounted folding sight I've seen out there as it's a supported main post vs a long lever arm. It's a triangle vs a lever arm. If everyone is willing to ignore how smashing a folding against whichever way it locks in the up position against it's very small parts is likely to cause a missing front sight, then doesn't it seem unfair to judge a rotational load against a barrel mounted clamp?
Ok, understood and agreed. The one thing I'm not sure about is that I might make this an irons only gun. Not sure yet, but it's a possibility for sure. Personally, I'm not really all that concerned about the pinned after seeing the Vltor test video and seeing one used on fielded military rifles.
I don't see the point in doing a Kino, removing a standard FSB, and replacing it with a folding, clamp-on, front sight. Just put a front sight on the rail, fixed or folding, and you'll save weight over any of the other options and you can put it wherever you want going foward/
EDIT: Oh, I just re-read this. You're looking to do a 12.5" barrel with a 12 FSP, that pretty much will exclude all silencers. No?
Yes and no. Not all. But IMO silencers are a waste of training ammo and money (cue the kvetching)
I'm with you there. An FSP is definitely a good idea for an SBR, and you're right I don't see that much. Mounting an X300 at 12 does have it's own issues though. Changing the battery or getting a QD that doesn't ride too high, getting it on and off, etc. I did a quick google and would like to the thread I found, but that's not allowed here.
You remove the light to replace the batteries. It slides off very easily.
Quick question, do you think the an X300 mounted at 9 or 11 on the extended midlength apex guard will produce a noticeable shadow or point of light / point of impact change compared to an X300 mounted at 12? I ask because I wonder if the extended will let you put the light out further past the FSB than a standard rail would.
if it's not at 12 o'clock, I would not personally choose an X300 and would use an M300C or M600C. Both have better "throw" (I own multiple examples of all three).
Longer handguard we are agreed on. However, I really disagree on the redundancy...
By going with a Kino setup, what you're getting over a FSP rail is ONE extra once, but also getting a fully protected actual gas block. That is, on the FSP rail, you're gas block / sight is out there to get hit and damaged. One a kino, it's fully protected by the handguard. To say redundancy implies a negative. I see difference as at worst, a lateral change, neither better or worse. Just different.
The forged FSB can crack when hit. All talk about sheering pins and clamp rotation aside, if hit hard enough, it's steel on steel to the barrel, something must give. I've seen FSB's broken during install (twice) but never one already installed. Still, there is something to be said for protecting the gas block imo.
I'm beginning to wonder what you think it is you're going to be doing with this gun. I'm not personally HALO jumping nor am I a "I break everything I touch" neanderthal either. I want shit to be strong and secure but I'm also not some Tier 1 guy deployed to secret locations. and I bet they take better care of their shit than most people on the internet pretend to anyway.
I don't know. I've seen you mention the clips, but buying a rail with spaces I'll never use and then just putting clips on them goes against everything I believe in :D
How much weight do you have in LaRue clips? Is it more than the one once that I'm considering adding for the brazilian keno build? The Apex guard imo looks a lot better than the Troy which I have mixed feels about for various reasons (one solved with the Alpha series). Noveske, LaRue on their rifles, KAC with the URXIII, Geissele, Wilson, Troy, and even DD are all making shaved or modular rails. It really seems to me that quad rail with covered is an implementation on it's way out. I'm not saying I don't like my DD OmegaX, I do, it's just that I look at it and think "Why is this all here?" or more to the point, "why am I paying for this?" :)
so you want all this hard-use gear, but you're not going to shoot it hard, and you're letting your belief system interfere with functional use? I'm getting more and more confused.
My suggestion is that you need to drop back and punt this for a bit. One thing we learned in design school is to have a concept. What this does is allow you to evaluate all of your design decisions against that concept. If you have a strong concept, design is almost EASY compared to the dumbasses that just copies Corbusier drawings out of books.
To equate that to guns, establish an end-use. It's best if this is based on actual prior use and discovering shortcomings in your existing platform systems when employed in that use but if it's all theoretical to storming the Vatican that's fine too, at least there's a goal. When you evaluate your parts choices as you move forward you see if they fit that end-use.
Take a look at this to understand what I mean. This gun was assembled with a very specific application. As I went through and developed my list of parts I looked at all known examples of a given part and chose the one that best fit that application. It came together like a friggin' swiss watch because of this.
https://sites.google.com/site/tacticalyellowvisor/projects---guns/10-3-ultralight-sbr
You have doubts about the PRI folding front? Like the same one Crane chose to go on the MK12... That's interesting because I have no doubts about it at all. Especially since its just going to be a sight and not a gas block. VLTOR seems to suggest their crossbolt (which is practically the same as everyone else's, took 100lbs of rotational torque, meaning the barrel will sheer its index pin or strip out before that clamp gives.
Not sure if the ARMS has seen real world use, but if The MK12 uses a clamp on, it seems like its good to go. I'm sure they dd plenty of testing and not just trusted their gut feeling.
Of course I could be wrong, it's just speculation on my part.
You're right, go ahead and dismiss what I said. I'm no expert, I'm not in the military or the firearms business and I'm definitely no theoretical physicist. However, you might want to listen to Iraqgunz ( who just happens to be an armorer of all things :eek: ) and Rob_s. These two men are well respected on this forum and their advice is given from experience.
You're right, go ahead and dismiss what I said. I'm no expert, I'm not in the military or the firearms business and I'm definitely no theoretical physicist. However, you might want to listen to Iraqgunz ( who just happens to be an armorer of all things :eek: ) and Rob_s. These two men are well respected on this forum and their advice is given from experience.
I once sold a truck to an actual rocket scientist. Like worked and retired from NASA, had TWO PHDs in something or another, and then one day he tried to sell me into a Quikstar / Amway pyramid scheme. Smart people can be mistaken too.
I'm not discounting anything anyone says, at the same time I don't care who it comes from, it's not the One True Word either. There are a lot of ways to do things and everyone has an opinion.
I've personally seen first hand actual military testing on firearms, salt testing to be specific. If they spend half the time and money testing everything else like they test for salt... I'm 100% sold on military testing. If the Mil uses a part, it's legit as far as my uses go. Absolutely no offense intended, but if some anonymous internet person tells me otherwise about a .mil part, it's not discounted, just very suspect.
Rob_s gets massive respect from me and I don't feel like I'm arguing with him, just trying to come up with a consensus about what will work for me based on his first hand experience.
Rob, processing and I'll write back in a second. I think I see a point where we'll agree.
Noted, understand that there is some play in the PRI and it's cast, not forged. I think I read somewhere that the casting is better for heat dissipation, not entirely sure though. The GG&G seems to be the popular model if you go that route.
Noted, understand that there is some play in the PRI and it's cast, not forged. I think I read somewhere that the casting is better for heat dissipation, not entirely sure though. The GG&G seems to be the popular model if you go that route.
When I want some more abuse I'll start a thread about which barrel mounted sight :D
I was under the impression that the Kino was designed for the reliability of the carbine gas system in the 12.5 and the longer sight radius of the middy.
I don't see the point in doing a Kino, removing a standard FSB, and replacing it with a folding, clamp-on, front sight. Just put a front sight on the rail, fixed or folding, and you'll save weight over any of the other options and you can put it wherever you want going foward/
The idea is that I have a gun that I can reliably do irons only on. Have an optic with no FSB in the way. Be 12.5" for various reasons. Have a slick handguard. And be able to pick up and put down in a hurry. I'm not going to hammer railroad ties of course, so all these side issues about strengths and clamps moving is a little off subject.
Kino gets me a midlength guard, in fact, in this case, extended mid length. It gets me the barrel of my choosing (CHF or LW or Both, or whatever). A front sight that is out of the way, protected at it's base. A LIGHT rail, which you place a priority on it seems, which is odd to me that you're considering rails with covers again. And most importantly for this project, it's cheap. For this gun I don't have $300+ to drop on the rail. It's a side project to a more expensive setup I'm making. I wish I had more money for these things, but I don't. If cost were no option, I'd buy a long DD rail and mill off the rails where I don't want them. Or wait for a Geissele or buy a Wilson TRIM. Cost is an factor, and the Apex Kino folding isn't "cheap" but it's cheaper than a lot of other options.
One thing I'd like to do is stay with a 12.5" barrel that doesn't really have much barrel exposed. This is personal preference to me. If you can recommend an 11" handguard, that's light, under $250 retail and doesn't have a fatal flaw like the KAC rails (expensive tool), I'm be glad to look into it.
Yes and no. Not all. But IMO silencers are a waste of training ammo and money (cue the kvetching)
I've seen your posts on this topic on forums. You make some fine points about extra weight and other issues by having a can on there and I respect those. That said, I like cans and feel that if I have to fire indoors, I'm going to be glad as hell it's on there. I just don't feel it's as large and issue for my use. Along those lines, I guess we all get a little spec-minded when looking at weight, but forget that the 3oz you save with this or that, is going to be proper-****ed by adding a 20oz silencer at the very end of the barrel :)
if it's not at 12 o'clock, I would not personally choose an X300 and would use an M300C or M600C. Both have better "throw" (I own multiple examples of all three).
Great info and I'll look into those immediately. One thing I did like about the X300 is it's also a handgun light, adds a little versatility if needed.
I'm beginning to wonder what you think it is you're going to be doing with this gun. I'm not personally HALO jumping nor am I a "I break everything I touch" neanderthal either. I want shit to be strong and secure but I'm also not some Tier 1 guy deployed to secret locations. and I bet they take better care of their shit than most people on the internet pretend to anyway.
No low openings for me either. And I take fine care of my shit as well. That said, I have plenty of delicate guns and am not looking for another. At the same time, I never said I wasn't going to use it hard.
My suggestion is that you need to drop back and punt this for a bit. One thing we learned in design school is to have a concept. What this does is allow you to evaluate all of your design decisions against that concept.
Great advice. And the 10.3 build looks well thought out. I'm going to go back a read that again a little slower this time.
I was under the impression that the Kino was designed for the reliability of the carbine gas system in the 12.5 and the longer sight radius of the middy.
Correct.
Rob_s's issue with it, is you paying (in weight) for the the gas block as well as the FSB. 1oz aluminum or 2oz steel + 4.7oz for a FSB. I could be wrong, Rob is free to correct, that's just my understanding of what he dislikes about it.
My argument is that the 2.7 or 3.7 extra ounces comes with a protected gas block and more options that just the fixed fsb, and yea also the longer sight radius compared to a carbine fsb. Long sight radius means absolutely shit if you're using an optic though.
[QUOTE=Noodles; Long sight radius means absolutely shit if you're using an optic though.[/QUOTE]
Correct, so run a12.5 with an 11 inch rail and put a flip up sight on it. You cover your low pro block, and get an even longer sight radius. Thus saving weight of the low pro gb and fsp.
Correct, so run a12.5 with an 11 inch rail and put a flip up sight on it. You cover your low pro block, and get an even longer sight radius. Thus saving weight of the low pro gb and fsp.
Well... Yea. That's a great option. I'm just not sure I have found a light rail with the features and cost I'm looking for.
The way I see it, my proposed build is THAT, just with a notch cut out of the rail for a slightly heavier front sight that instead of attaching to the rail, attaches to the barrel. And to your post, you only save the wieght of the FSP, but that's offset by adding a folding front sight. So... +1.5oz for a Troy or +4.7 for a FSB, everything else should be roughly the same. See my original post about a Wilson Trim railed 11.5" only being 1.5oz lighter than a 12.5" kino with Apex.
So your going to run a can on this or not?
If you are, just go with a 10.5" with the pinned FSB and the extended carbine Apex hand guard and be done with it.
I have to agree with these guys that you seem to be building something that is WAY over complicated(at least to me). I dont have any experience with clamp sights or gas blocks or what not so I cant comment on that stuff. I dont know, I try to keep things simple and reduce the points of possible failure. To me getting 2" more hand space, 2" longer sight plain, and 2" more "fill in the blank", doesnt justify greater complication of running 2 different clamp on parts that have the potential to come loose at the wrong times.
Oh and "im building an SBR, I want that ****er as short as possible(within reason)" comes to my mind also.
K.L. Davis
03-01-12, 22:36
The purpose of the Kino Config was to take advantage of the 12.5" barrel and Carbine Gas combination, and add a little more handguard and sight radius, while keeping everything simple: fixed sight, drop on handguard, nothing fancy gun. Trust me on this.
So your going to run a can on this or not?
If you are, just go with a 10.5" with the pinned FSB and the extended carbine Apex hand guard and be done with it.
...
Oh and "im building an SBR, I want that ****er as short as possible(within reason)" comes to my mind also.
Yes, this will be suppressed 90% of the time.
A couple of things though. I don't want a PDW. I want a carbine. I'd take the ballistics of a 556 out of a 12.5" any day of the week over 10.5". I like that 12.5 is more reliable, softer on parts and the silencer, and just generally nicer to shoot (FOR ME, this is all my opinion having played with 10.5" guns, I have not shot them all).
If I feel like I need something shorter, I'll 1 or 2 up the 10.5" with an 8" or 9" 300blk. I've been following that and it looks phenomenal for a PDW.
A 10.5" carbine, pinned with apex is still only getting me a short handguard. The big deal here is that I want the extra room. If I didn't, I would go 11.5"/12.5" carbine in a second.
The purpose of the Kino Config was to take advantage of the 12.5" barrel and Carbine Gas combination, and add a little more handguard and sight radius, while keeping everything simple: fixed sight, drop on handguard, nothing fancy gun. Trust me on this.
I know who you are, and just for the absolute fun of seeing a couple people here just freak out, it makes me want to argue with you :D
Yea, I get what you're saying. So in your opinion then does it make much sense to run a Kino with an optic? How about with a free float rail? How about both?
The weight penalty of the Kino is the biggest disadvantage, agreed?
Given a 12.5" barrel, when would you use a free float rail and bolt on sight vs your configuration?
All that aside, I'm really confused why the such strong opinion in this topic. All I'm considering is a traditional 12.5" ff with the sight attached to the barrel instead of the rail. No other differences. It's a 3.5oz weight difference but I get the longest slick handguard possible that meets my needs. I think this appears more complicated than it is.
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