View Full Version : HK45 user error. Common?
Battle*Hound
02-29-12, 19:26
Came across this vid. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sUmvYnEGoUA I am yet to pick up my new HK45 and am just curious if this has happened with any owners here. It's obviously not a malfunction of the weapon but I had never heard of this being an issue. I did find a second person on utube making the same mistake.
I've never had an issue. It's not even somthing I have thought about. With a proper grip and recoil managment you should not have any issues.
In the opening of the video it looks like her firing hand thumb may be trapped under the support hand. The thumb could be resting on the magazine release and applying pressure to it when firing.
Battle*Hound
02-29-12, 20:02
Yeah I was just curious. I am a true believer in HK, so I'm in for one of these either way.:D
I Have never had any problems Like this with my HK 45 compact it is a USP Though ,this Fix is for the newer HKs right :confused:.
Mine runs Like a beast ,Built like a beast Never a Issue :sarcastic:
F-Trooper05
02-29-12, 21:09
I've heard of it before. It's due to a combination of the large mag release and heavy recoil. The good news is that I've never heard of it being a problem with serious shooters which leads me to believe it's attributed to piss poor grip.
No, that is absolutely not common, much less a design problem with the pistol.
Never heard or seen this before, much less experienced it with my HK45. (I'm going by the video minus sound, as the baby is FINALLY asleep, so apologies if I'm missing something key in the voiceover.)
Call me a skeptic, but watching that vid my first thought would be "software" glitch....
My $0.02: don't fret - it's a solid platform. Different tools for different folks and all, but I think there's a good chance you'll love the HK45, especially if you go light LEM.
Battle*Hound
02-29-12, 23:04
I Have never had any problems Like this with my HK 45 compact it is a USP Though ,this Fix is for the newer HKs right :confused:.
Mine runs Like a beast ,Built like a beast Never a Issue :sarcastic:
As far as I can tell this is the HK45
I had this problem for awhile. Not initially, but after altering my grip during a class:
https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=67890
Figured out I was pressing the mag release with the middle finger of non-dominant finger, as it tended to slide between the fingers on my dominant hand and actuate the release. I don't think it's a common problem, but obviously some others have had it happen.
Battle*Hound
02-29-12, 23:08
And another
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9UMmjdQ7U9g
Battle*Hound
02-29-12, 23:11
yet again
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0vH7mOZK7Ew
The more I look the more I find. It's interesting...just never seen this sort of thing before
Battle*Hound
02-29-12, 23:18
I had this problem for awhile. Not initially, but after altering my grip during a class:
https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=67890
Figured out I was pressing the mag release with the middle finger of non-dominant finger, as it tended to slide between the fingers on my dominant hand and actuate the release. I don't think it's a common problem, but obviously some others have had it happen.
huh...well there ya have it. I'm not sure if this can be defined as a design flaw but if it happens to enough, different shooters, all with possibly different techniques and hand sizes...then who's to say? Well anyway not a big deal, I just think it's worth bullshitting about. :D
No, that is absolutely not common, much less a design problem with the pistol.
Oh? It seems that these two fellas disagree with you about that,
Larry: So they went around and asked enough people until they got the answer they wanted. General Meyer (then CEO of HK, replacing Ernst Mauch) liked it and that was all the engineers needed to hear. From then on, the full size gun had the spiderman grip.
As it turns out, the grip is fine. It’s not a big deal. Where they ****’ed up royally — and with the P30, too — is the whole molded trough or groove in the trigger guard, combined with a lack of overtravel stop, combined with the shelf design of the ambi mag release. It leads to a situation for many people, myself included, when they fire the gun the gun torques and twists in their hands and bites the bottom edge of their trigger finger.
I had a prototype for a while and after shooting it, I called them and told them, “Dude, you need to fix this now. This is a real problem.” But they didn’t touch it. The Germans went into production with it. That has been the one thing … they ****’ed that up. Those were changes they got from the P30 without our input and carried it over to the full size HK45.
That’s why I went to [gunsmith David Bowie of Bowie Tactical Concepts] to do his modification, what he calls the Vickers Mod. He gets rid of the trough, does an internal overtravel stop (which also makes the trigger feel better), and rounds the edges on the paddle mag releases on the HK45 and P30. That does away with all the problems. It’s night and day in my book.
As it turns out, what they did to the grip was OK but the whole interface between the trigger guard and all that was wrong
Thats why Bowie rounds them off, because yeah, they are a real problem for some really serious shooters, myself being one of them!
Came across this vid. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sUmvYnEGoUA I am yet to pick up my new HK45 and am just curious if this has happened with any owners here. It's obviously not a malfunction of the weapon but I had never heard of this being an issue. I did find a second person on utube making the same mistake.
You are correct, it's not a mechanical failing of anykind, it's a design issue, and though not experienced by all, it is experienced by more then a few, it's also not an operator mistake per se, thats why Bowie tactical does it's mod pkg to both the HK45, and the P30.
Personally, I wouldn't worry about it, if you land your pistol and it's a problem, as you've seen the fix is pretty simple. A far bigger issue for you could be the trigger groove/trough integral to the bottom inside of the trigger guard. However if it is, that can be remedied too.
DanjojoUSMC
03-01-12, 00:02
Denali, your quote doesn't say anything about issues with mags dropping out, just biting fingers.
I stopped watching the video when he said that the mag release being raised "was a feature". The video just lost credibility.
Denali, your quote doesn't say anything about issues with mags dropping out, just biting fingers.
It's inferred because the pkg offered by Bowie deals directly with the issue of dropped mags. I'll look and see if I've another quote from either of them tomorrow. But Vickers in the interview clearly indicates that they are at least a problem as far as he's concerned.
I never saw it happen (I mean on the range, not on video) to anyone in HK, neither experienced it myself.
But saw this happen in Glock, Tanfoglio and experienced myself in my STI 2011 (it was grip related - to the point that reinforced mag catch spring was needed).
Are this designs problems? I do not think so. Grip technique, hand size and even hand/fingers shape is not equal for everyone. Some systems work better for some people, some systems do not work for them at all. I think that this problems here are either:
1. Poor grip.
2. Wrong pistol choice for shooter ergonomics.
3. Looking for problem to share on Youtube ;)
Paddle magazine releases from HK or Walther are usually love-or-hate relationship. I love them and prefer above any button releases. Actually I use button releases in way as close to use paddle as possible (yes, I'm lefty).
BTW With normal grip HK paddle is resting against top of middle finger. If shooter is gripping as high as possible and with aggressive grip, it is actually hard to press paddle down and release magazine (try this using reaction hand to press on paddle while maintaining positive grip by weapon hand). That is why trigger finger, or even better middle finger, paddle operation is easiest, as it require to relax grip a little and allows paddle to move down with less force. Personally I use middle finger for that.
I stopped watching the video when he said that the mag release being raised "was a feature". The video just lost credibility.
Yeah no kidding. I just shouted out "That's Bullsh*t!" but everyone in my office is use to that.
Clearly user error. I've shot my HK45/c, P2000's P30, and USPs with out anything like that ever happening. However on occasion I have accidentally hit the safety on live fire, and that was fixed by me switching to V3.
I've done it - it was from me putting too much of my index finger on the trigger. Then under recoil the tip of my finger was hitting the release on my off hand side of the gun.
Defaultmp3
03-01-12, 13:30
It's inferred because the pkg offered by Bowie deals directly with the issue of dropped mags. I'll look and see if I've another quote from either of them tomorrow. But Vickers in the interview clearly indicates that they are at least a problem as far as he's concerned.
Nah, it's just the trough at the bottom biting people on the finger, nothing to do with the "dropped mag" "issue". Heard about it before, but have never had it happen to me or any one else had shot my HK45. I, like most here, think it's an issue of poor grip.
The problem area involves the trigger guard/mag release/trigger overtravel area - there is some excessive overtravel which magnifies the fact that some edges and corners inside the trigger guard and the L shaped mag catch bite the trigger finger when you shoot the pistol - this affects approx 75% of the people who shoot the weapon; same goes for the HK P30 except it is not as bad with a 9mm vs a .45 - the HK 45 Compact is not really a problem as it was left in the same configuration as the prototype HK 45's with a P2000 style frame (which all things considered I wish the full size had been left alone but then again that is another story also....)
The good news is my bro David Bowie of Bowie Tactical Concepts (www.bowietacticalconcepts.com) - a polymer frame pistolsmith of the highest order - has done some mods that totally fix the problem
With my explanation of the problem areas and his efforts he has come up with a few critical mods that enhance the shootability of the pistol tremendously - every fullsize HK 45 should have this package - the 'Vickers HK 45 mods' for lack of a better term - they address the areas of the trigger guard/mag release/overtravel stop and basically fix what the factory did not
Radioflyer
03-01-12, 15:46
This can occur if the magazine is not fully seated, but i'd venture to say that's possible with any gun.
Looking at my P30 (which has the same magazine release) I could see how this can happen if someone really limp wrists the gun.
Then again Limp Wristing is the cause of most malfunctions and poor accuracy that I see.
Battle*Hound
03-01-12, 18:46
Yeah no kidding. I just shouted out "That's Bullsh*t!" but everyone in my office is use to that.
:lol: Sounds like a place I would fit in...except for the office part. :D
Battle*Hound
03-01-12, 18:48
Well now I'd like to hear from anyone who had the Bowie mod done. And it's affects....
I fixed this problem by picking up a 45C
I watched the video above, and the gentleman demonstrates how a high tang grip makes it impossible to drop the magazine.
Is this true? If so, wouldn't it do away with being able to drop the mag without breaking grip?
I have no horse in this race. Don't own any HK, but I can appreciate their guns.
I watched the video above, and the gentleman demonstrates how a high tang grip makes it impossible to drop the magazine.
Is this true? If so, wouldn't it do away with being able to drop the mag without breaking grip?
I have no horse in this race. Don't own any HK, but I can appreciate their guns.
Haven't watched the video, but I'm not sure how that would fix the problem. I'm fine with people attributing the the issue to "limp wristing" or whatever--the funny thing is I find the more common problem is taking a death grip on the gun in an attempt to fight recoil.
At least in my case, the issue stemmed from the middle finger of my non-dominant hand sliding between my index and middle finger of my dominant hand and actuating the release. I use a high-grip with my dominant hand as high as possible and my non-dominant hand aggressively forward. I'm not disputing it was user error and I was personally able to correct the issue, but it was via a less ideal (IMO grip) or by wearing gloves so my finger would not slip. YMMV.
I sold the gun ultimately, but it was not for this reason simply because I really saw no need for a .45 ACP and standardized on 9mm. I have not had similar issues on the Walthers I have as the mag release has to be pressed down further forward.
I have yet to have HK pistols fail me. 2 x P2000, 1 x P2000SK, 3 x USP, 4 x USPc, 3 x P30, 1 x HK45, 1 x HK45c.
One issue was with a P30 and loose slide release. And I have driven most of these very hard.
It took him over five and a half minutes to say "Grip the gun the way you should in the first place."?
Thousands of rounds through mine including two high round count classes and I've never come close to experiencing this.
Actually the reason I ask is not if a proper high tang grip would negate the mag popping out... but rather if you cannot activate the mag release with a high grip - doesn't that negate the biggest selling point of the trigger guard mag catch - being able to drop the mag without breaking grip?
The Dumb Gun Collector
03-11-12, 17:14
Lol. Some people can screw up anything. I remember when yahoos were disassembling their p7s by doing some Yeager style violent slingshot slide release. Ahh the humanity.
Oh? It seems that these two fellas disagree with you about that,
Thats why Bowie rounds them off, because yeah, they are a real problem for some really serious shooters, myself being one of them!
you are referring to this
http://www.hkpro.com/forum/hk-handgun-talk/95497-i-had-my-hk45-3-hours-then-i-did-2.html
that's not what this thread is about. this thread is about people putting their fingers in the wrong place and actuating the mag release while firing.
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